Loose tyres, need glue advice

 
  Oscar Train Controller

I've read other examples of this but have only just started to experience it myself and cannot find what others have used to remedy the problem. I've got a few wagons starting to throw tyres and wondering what people use to glue them back on?  Whilst most examples are metal tyres on plastic spoked wheels there's a metal on metal example too on a TOR C32 driver, so wondering if a different glue needs to be used there?

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  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
One of the many Loctite glues will probably work, but I drill a small hole (0.7mm or so) and jam a piece of brass wire between the wheel and tyre. Essential to get the tyre on so it doesn't wobble.
  Oscar Train Controller

Thanks apw, I'm glad you mentioned Loctite.  I didn't want to use something that might affect the plastic wheel centres like maybe MEK or poly cement but I don't know what's safe apart from superglue. So I have tried Loctite super glue gel on one wheel. The only problem with the gel is that it set too quickly before I got the wheel on square. I've got spares so it's no big deal for wagons but the C32 driver is going to look rubbish if it sets too quick before aligned. So I've been thinking of using some blue or red threadlocker but that might be messier.

Regarding the brass wire as a key, I'll have to think about that. I don't know if I can drill accurately enough but I'll give it a go on that spare wheel. Cheers.
  yogibarnes Locomotive Fireman

I've successfully done three Trainorama driving wheels (but maybe my luck will change on future attempts).
I lay the offending loco on its side and apply low power so the wheels turn reasonably slowly, but not too slow.  Under a magnifying glass, apply a small drop of liquid superglue to the wheel rim surface with a toothpick, allow the tyre to drop on to it and immediately apply slight thumb/finger pressure to the outside of the tyre.  Hopefully, with the rotation, the tyre will assume a "true" position on the rim and all will be hunky dorey!
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

I've read other examples of this but have only just started to experience it myself and cannot find what others have used to remedy the problem. I've got a few wagons starting to throw tyres and wondering what people use to glue them back on?  Whilst most examples are metal tyres on plastic spoked wheels there's a metal on metal example too on a TOR C32 driver, so wondering if a different glue needs to be used there?
Oscar
The best advice seems to be Loctite. If you dare to use super glue or epoxy, you had better get those tyres properly aligned, first go!
For metal to metal bond you might be best using a thread locking type glue, rather than liquid superglue which is most unforgiving, and may be impossible to correct once bonded. One of the more flexible superglues might work better for metal to plastic. Loctite has an on-line glue selector that should help.

I will confess that I have never attempted a wheel/tyre repair, but I’ve heard tales of dodgy repairs that have resulted in forever wobbling wheels...
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

Another way to fix loose tyres is to use tissue paper like a Kleneex type or similar. Pull the tissue apart into its respective plys and use one of these to fix your loose tyres. Take the tyre off if it is not already off the wheel centre and lay it down the correct way for the wheel centre to go back in, they place a piece of the single ply tissue over the tyre and then carefully push home the wheel centre back into the tyre. You can remove the plastic wheel centre from the axle if possible. Any excess tissue can be rubbed away with your fingers to get it back to how it looked. But the wheel centre and the tyre should now be tight fit again, you could add a drop of super glue to the paper though after you have got it on all nice and square. I have used this method for a long time with no glue and it has saved a lot of wheels where the tyre came loose on the plastic centre. Old SEM wheels seemed to be the worse offenders though but other do it as well. Read this article and see photos on this link. I apoligize for some of the out of focus photos but my camera decided to throw a wobbly at the time.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/southozrail/fixing-loose-tyres-on-sem-style-wheels-t2877.html
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
Another way to fix loose tyres is to use tissue paper like a Kleneex type or similar. Pull the tissue apart into its respective plys and use one of these to fix your loose tyres. Take the tyre off if it is not already off the wheel centre and lay it down the correct way for the wheel centre to go back in, they place a piece of the single ply tissue over the tyre and then carefully push home the wheel centre back into the tyre. You can remove the plastic wheel centre from the axle if possible. Any excess tissue can be rubbed away with your fingers to get it back to how it looked. But the wheel centre and the tyre should now be tight fit again, you could add a drop of super glue to the paper though after you have got it on all nice and square. I have used this method for a long time with no glue and it has saved a lot of wheels where the tyre came loose on the plastic centre. Old SEM wheels seemed to be the worse offenders though but other do it as well. Read this article and see photos on this link. I apoligize for some of the out of focus photos but my camera decided to throw a wobbly at the time.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/southozrail/fixing-loose-tyres-on-sem-style-wheels-t2877.html
DJPeters
So essentially you are adding a thin paper shim. I like it for its simplicity!
  Oscar Train Controller

DJP, top idea!! Love the pliers as anvil idea too. I was going to make a stack of washers sat on hole drilled into wood to make sure the tyre is on a flat surface but previously found some SDS tyres during a dry refit went past the rim when pushing by hand and no doubt the back-to-back would be out. But add the tissue shim and that should take care of the the tyre being pressed on too far.

Thanks too yogi and NSWRcars, I did think of epoxy at one stage but I can't use it without creating a mess. The longer setting time would be a bonus though as would threadlocker but I've decided on loctite super glue, non gel.

I had two tyres loose on the C32 and thought about your method yogi and tried some SG applied with a pin. I didn't apply power in time, just pressed on around the diameter and thought it looked good. Went to do the second one and thought I'd power up a little and it was misaligned. I popped the wheel off quickly before it set but in my haste a third tyre popped off. I knocked a forth off without too much trouble and before long had the front driver's off as well. I figured they'll all come loose eventually and the best way to make sure they're square when glued on is to take the drivers off.

When I took the keeper plate off I was surprised to find all drivers are cogged. I thought one driver would be driven by the gear train and the rest by the connecting rods like the handful of other steam locos I have.  My only concern is quartering them again. It would be easier if I could remove the idler gears which I may do. They can slide on their axles and it appears the axles are press fit into the chassis. I'm going to have to check that. I can imagine already that when put back together there'll be binding if I don't mesh the gears correctly.



  Oscar Train Controller

Bit of a disaster last night. Despite your bold text yogibarnes of using a small amount of glue, I still used too much and although I thought my first axle set looked nice and straight, I set it on an incline and let it free roll and both tyres were out of alignment.  The others weren't as bad but still not acceptable. Getting tyres off again was a pain. I had to remove the axles to avoid damaging them then had to paint acetone on both sides of the joins multiple times before punching the centres out with my thumb whilst resting the tyre on a 15mm socket as per picture. Once cleaned again I reversed the tyres on a 17mm socket, applied a small bit of glue then firmly pushed in the wheels.

Finally some success. If I'm totally honest I'll admit to a very slight wobble on two wheels but not noticeable. I only noticed whilst viewing above with 2x mag reading glasses as the wheels were rolled.  Quartering wasn't as hard as I thought it would be with spokes being lined up by sight before inserting axle splines. However a couple of the wheel centres could rotate which means the teeth on their respective cogs were out a bit. I found rotating in the middle axle first was the easiest so far as the front and rear axles were easier to remove. As each axle is inserted it rolls a little as the gears mesh, so a few goes were needed to line things up before the rods were screwed on.

In the end by about 0130 this morning it ran really well. The only thing to do now is replace some detail bits I knocked off. Be damned if I could find the tender's ladder though.


Socket used as anvil
  a6et Minister for Railways

Bit of a disaster last night. Despite your bold text yogibarnes of using a small amount of glue, I still used too much and although I thought my first axle set looked nice and straight, I set it on an incline and let it free roll and both tyres were out of alignment.  The others weren't as bad but still not acceptable. Getting tyres off again was a pain. I had to remove the axles to avoid damaging them then had to paint acetone on both sides of the joins multiple times before punching the centres out with my thumb whilst resting the tyre on a 15mm socket as per picture. Once cleaned again I reversed the tyres on a 17mm socket, applied a small bit of glue then firmly pushed in the wheels.

Finally some success. If I'm totally honest I'll admit to a very slight wobble on two wheels but not noticeable. I only noticed whilst viewing above with 2x mag reading glasses as the wheels were rolled.  Quartering wasn't as hard as I thought it would be with spokes being lined up by sight before inserting axle splines. However a couple of the wheel centres could rotate which means the teeth on their respective cogs were out a bit. I found rotating in the middle axle first was the easiest so far as the front and rear axles were easier to remove. As each axle is inserted it rolls a little as the gears mesh, so a few goes were needed to line things up before the rods were screwed on.

In the end by about 0130 this morning it ran really well. The only thing to do now is replace some detail bits I knocked off. Be damned if I could find the tender's ladder though.


Socket used as anvil
Oscar
I had a fellow modeller fix my 32cl wheels/tyres, he used super glue forget the actual brand but it was very much an early well known brand which then had many other brands come out, IIRC it was made in the U.S

I was amazed at the simplicity of how he fixed the tyres on my model, he dropped the tyre off and using some Isocol wiped the inside of the tyre and then the wheel, once dry he part pushed the tyre on to the wheel and tested that it went on completely and he could rotate the tyre with some minor amount of force. Taking the tyre off he then added a drop of the glue, onto the wheel, and then quickly began turning the tyre on the wheel until it stopped moving.

I watched him do the same with 4 wheels that were problems, it was quick work as he had done several others. Apologies for late post but, I believe part of the problem is the tyres being made from Stainless Steel, rather than the old Nickel Silver, SS does not seem to like glues which does not help.
  Oscar Train Controller

Yeah I read that before a6et regarding wheel material. I went on a search for all threads on the TOR C32 because I recently bought this one off ebay.  It sat in a cupboard for a little while before I took it out and found the the tyre's loose. So I wasn't surprised but thought it would be easier to fix. But yeah, that little practice and experience will help now if I get another. A swipe of alcohol on the mating surfaces is a good idea and one I didn't think of despite having a spray bottle of it right in front of me last night.

Regarding the stainless steel tyres though, I thought it was around the other way, not from what I've read, but what I observed last night and a misconception of mine. For example, the wheels aren't magnetic but the tyres are. Found out by accident when one of the tyres was stuck near the top of the boiler. I thought that was interesting. A wheel wasn't attracted. Tested the same with a magnetic screwdriver.  But as I type this I've done a google because I meant to do search after reading about the DCC concepts power base product not long ago which has "stainless steel" plates under the track and magnets on the underside of the locos. I thought they must have made a typo. My misconception was that stainless steel is non magnetic but answers elsewhere says there's different types and some are magnetic. So something else I've learnt there.


This TOR 32 is a nice runner though and i like it's all metal body and chassis. Haven't done any heavy pull tests, but at 243g loco only, it's heavier than the Austrains first run 36 at 225g and since it pulls well I expect the same or better. So I hope the tyre composition on the 32 doesn't decrease friction.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller


I believe part of the problem is the tyres being made from Stainless Steel, rather than the old Nickel Silver, SS does not seem to like glues which does not help.
a6et
which is the reason a thread-locking adhesive should be used - they work on Stainless Steel and other passive metals. Superglue is NOT RECOMMENDED.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread-locking_fluid
and
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/au/en/products/industrial-adhesives/threadlockers.html
  Oscar Train Controller

Oh man..I thought about it.. I saw you mention it, I mentioned it and I have two bottles of 243 in my tool chest, or maybe it's 242. It's red. I just know that I've had to heat with a gas torch some auto nuts and bolts to free them and feared that if I messed up on these tiny wheels they'd be permanently stuck or if I wanted to redo them I'd end up melting the wheel centres.

But I reckon I got the hang of it now, so if I get another or tyre gets thrown off this one again I'll have a crack.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Yeah I read that before a6et regarding wheel material. I went on a search for all threads on the TOR C32 because I recently bought this one off ebay.  It sat in a cupboard for a little while before I took it out and found the the tyre's loose. So I wasn't surprised but thought it would be easier to fix. But yeah, that little practice and experience will help now if I get another. A swipe of alcohol on the mating surfaces is a good idea and one I didn't think of despite having a spray bottle of it right in front of me last night.

Regarding the stainless steel tyres though, I thought it was around the other way, not from what I've read, but what I observed last night and a misconception of mine. For example, the wheels aren't magnetic but the tyres are. Found out by accident when one of the tyres was stuck near the top of the boiler. I thought that was interesting. A wheel wasn't attracted. Tested the same with a magnetic screwdriver.  But as I type this I've done a google because I meant to do search after reading about the DCC concepts power base product not long ago which has "stainless steel" plates under the track and magnets on the underside of the locos. I thought they must have made a typo. My misconception was that stainless steel is non magnetic but answers elsewhere says there's different types and some are magnetic. So something else I've learnt there.


This TOR 32 is a nice runner though and i like it's all metal body and chassis. Haven't done any heavy pull tests, but at 243g loco only, it's heavier than the Austrains first run 36 at 225g and since it pulls well I expect the same or better. So I hope the tyre composition on the 32 doesn't decrease friction.
Oscar
The tyres is the only issue I have had with the TOR 32, although I would have preferred the tender to be in one of the ABS or other similar types rather than metal. A few reasons, and they are weight, a non Metal tender shell would have cut the weight down as the metal does affect load pulling to a degree on grades. I have lost some tender hand rails, as they are only divet connected to the tender, and have fallen off, hard to glue back.  The type of SS that is used in the tyres, I have found creates a black residue on the nickel silver track, its not dirt as such but more like a soft oil or something, it wipes off with a tissue, so when I run the model I put an S truck behind the tender with one of the axle clip on cleaning pads, works a treat.

None of my other loco's have that residue issue.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Oh man..I thought about it.. I saw you mention it, I mentioned it and I have two bottles of 243 in my tool chest, or maybe it's 242. It's red. I just know that I've had to heat with a gas torch some auto nuts and bolts to free them and feared that if I messed up on these tiny wheels they'd be permanently stuck or if I wanted to redo them I'd end up melting the wheel centres.

But I reckon I got the hang of it now, so if I get another or tyre gets thrown off this one again I'll have a crack.
Oscar
Good luck Oscar, and thanks for sharing your experience!
I should stress that I have not tried a wheel/tyre repair, but the advice I’ve heard is to use Loctite. Perhaps a medium strength thread-locker, such as Loctite 242. Note: 242 is in a red bottle, but the glue is blue (medium strength)!

Loctite also does metal-to-plastic thread lockers.
  a6et Minister for Railways


I believe part of the problem is the tyres being made from Stainless Steel, rather than the old Nickel Silver, SS does not seem to like glues which does not help.which is the reason a thread-locking adhesive should be used - they work on Stainless Steel and other passive metals. Superglue is NOT RECOMMENDED.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread-locking_fluid
and
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/au/en/products/industrial-adhesives/threadlockers.html
NSWRcars
Good article, will do further checks with the fellow who fixed my 32cl wheels/tyres.

As I mentioned I said I believed that Part of the problem was the SS, what I have heard from some modellers is that they have the tyres at times may have gone out of shape, and have a slight oval affect on some tyres, only heard of one being like that and another that one tyre seemed to have a different inside diameter, meaning the tyre was generally easy to finger rotate. Both have been fixed but have no idea with what.

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