It's the economy, stupid!

 
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Sydney has how many corporate head offices of companies with +$100 Mpa of revenue?
Adelaide has how many corporate head offices of companies with +$100 Mpa of revenue?
RTT_Rules
AGAIN - this is 'trickle up'. The money is going to where all the wealthy people are and staying there. And don't forget that there's a direct relationship between income inequality and unstable, crime-ridden societies.

If it wasn't for the re-distributive nature of taxation we'd have all the money and wealth concentrated within a few square kilometers in Sydney and nowhere else; it would probably have a massive fence around it to keep the poor out.

The more you argue this point the more you prove yourself wrong... stop digging!

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  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Sydney has how many corporate head offices of companies with +$100 Mpa of revenue?
Adelaide has how many corporate head offices of companies with +$100 Mpa of revenue?
AGAIN - this is 'trickle up'. The money is going to where all the wealthy people are and staying there. And don't forget that there's a direct relationship between income inequality and unstable, crime-ridden societies.

If it wasn't for the re-distributive nature of taxation we'd have all the money and wealth concentrated within a few square kilometers in Sydney and nowhere else; it would probably have a massive fence around it to keep the poor out.

The more you argue this point the more you prove yourself wrong... stop digging!
don_dunstan
...and every attempt to prevent the so called "trickle up" via socialism and communism has failed, why?

Humanity follows money, simple as that, its what built our society and innovation. Taxation and some form of social equality at least at health and education level is part of modern society.  

The money of commerce and trade flows to the big end of town which is mostly based in Sydney and Melbourne in Aust and then distributed in wages and profits which then distribute via consumerism etc etc. The further away you are and the less you have to offer the big end of town the less you get.  

What your arguing is basic BS. Why is the money not flowing to places like Adelaide and to the workers of Adelaide, Hobart etc? If you moved the corp offices in Sydney to Adelaide, overnight, then overnight the average wages of the working class in Adelaide would rise.  This is hardly "trickle up".
  Gayspie Assistant Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
We need to turn big corporations into workers cooperatives where workers own the company and manage the company. Labor and capital shall merge once and for all.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...and every attempt to prevent the so called "trickle up" via socialism and communism has failed, why?
RTT_Rules

Not that simple. It was successful in Russia and China where there was a huge underclass and living conditions improved considerably for that majority. The situation in those countries was completely different to Australia.  
... If you moved the corp offices in Sydney to Adelaide, overnight, then overnight the average wages of the working class in Adelaide would rise.  This is hardly "trickle up".
RTT_Rules
If you paid your average workers the same or less it wouldn't. It only works when you have a shortage of labour and your Corporations need to pay more. Trickle down is not the most efficient way of getting money into an economy that's stagnating.
You do seem to go to a lot of effort defending the party line.
  allan Chief Commissioner

The party line: "All reactionaries are paper tigers. In appearance, the reactionaries are terrifying, but in reality, they are not so powerful. From a long-term point of view, it is not the reactionaries but the people who are powerful."

Come the revolution...
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
We need to turn big corporations into workers cooperatives where workers own the company and manage the company. Labor and capital shall merge once and for all.
Heath
You comrade, Should be In parliament! Viva la Fai! It Can work, and has many times
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
...and every attempt to prevent the so called "trickle up" via socialism and communism has failed, why?

Humanity follows money, simple as that, its what built our society and innovation. Taxation and some form of social equality at least at health and education level is part of modern society.  

The money of commerce and trade flows to the big end of town which is mostly based in Sydney and Melbourne in Aust and then distributed in wages and profits which then distribute via consumerism etc etc. The further away you are and the less you have to offer the big end of town the less you get.  

What your arguing is basic BS. Why is the money not flowing to places like Adelaide and to the workers of Adelaide, Hobart etc? If you moved the corp offices in Sydney to Adelaide, overnight, then overnight the average wages of the working class in Adelaide would rise.  This is hardly "trickle up".
RTT_Rules
Again, you're in a big hole of your own creation - STOP DIGGING!

Nobody said that we had to institute socialism or communism to prevent 'trickle up', that's just your assumption that it's the only alternative to laissez faire. You were trying to argue (in the beginning) that 'trickle down' did in fact work and nothing you've written here proves your case - if anything you've been arguing successfully for the government to intervene and use the taxation system to encourage redistribution.

I really don't think you have any idea of what you're talking about, you're just bored at work and freeloading off your employer's time (yet again).
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
We need to turn big corporations into workers cooperatives where workers own the company and manage the company. Labor and capital shall merge once and for all.
Heath
and are the so called workers going to pay the capital to take over the company from the share holders?

The workers will then sell it to the highest bidder which happens all too frequently.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Nobody said that we had to institute socialism or communism to prevent 'trickle up', that's just your assumption that it's the only alternative to laissez faire. You were trying to argue (in the beginning) that 'trickle down' did in fact work and nothing you've written here proves your case - if anything you've been arguing successfully for the government to intervene and use the taxation system to encourage redistribution.

I really don't think you have any idea of what you're talking about, you're just bored at work and freeloading off your employer's time (yet again).
don_dunstan
No, just trying to explain to the socalists here that the higher workers salaries follow the big end of town and where there is no big end of town, then overall salaries are lower.

Some things trickle down, some things trickle up, which is the greater, we can argue this to the cows come home and likely will as it depends on the reference point, are we talking private or govt, location etc etc.


As for your second comment. Do we really have to repeat this again? Going personal means you have run out of puff on the topic of debate and make increasingly personal, often insulting and idiotic comments about my personal life for which you know nothing about. If you want to start, again, fine, I'll happily throw it right back at you for which you have also previously told me you don't like. So enough, agreed?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
No, just trying to explain to the socalists here that the higher workers salaries follow the big end of town and where there is no big end of town, then overall salaries are lower.

Some things trickle down, some things trickle up, which is the greater, we can argue this to the cows come home and likely will as it depends on the reference point, are we talking private or govt, location etc etc.
RTT_Rules
This is classic Ayn Rand libertarian dribble; the rest of society needs the rich entrepreneurs otherwise we will all fall into a heap and won't be able to function. Ayn Rand who so very much hated the concept of a welfare state but then (thanks to her own financial mis-management and a lifetime of chronic smoking) had to spend the remaining six years of her life reliant on US Government Medicaid, the very system that she had railed against her whole life.

"Some things trickle down, some things trickle up"... so now you're having a bet each way?
As for your second comment. Do we really have to repeat this again? Going personal means you have run out of puff on the topic of debate and make increasingly personal, often insulting and idiotic comments about my personal life for which you know nothing about. If you want to start, again, fine, I'll happily throw it right back at you for which you have also previously told me you don't like. So enough, agreed?
RTT_Rules
I notice you didn't deny it.

Wasn't it you about six months ago telling us that some of your work colleagues would be all too eager to get you sacked so they could get your job?

You're making it really easy for them.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
No, just trying to explain to the socalists here that the higher workers salaries follow the big end of town and where there is no big end of town, then overall salaries are lower.

Some things trickle down, some things trickle up, which is the greater, we can argue this to the cows come home and likely will as it depends on the reference point, are we talking private or govt, location etc etc.
This is classic Ayn Rand libertarian dribble; the rest of society needs the rich entrepreneurs otherwise we will all fall into a heap and won't be able to function. Ayn Rand who so very much hated the concept of a welfare state but then (thanks to her own financial mis-management and a lifetime of chronic smoking) had to spend the remaining six years of her life reliant on US Government Medicaid, the very system that she had railed against her whole life.

"Some things trickle down, some things trickle up"... so now you're having a bet each way?
As for your second comment. Do we really have to repeat this again? Going personal means you have run out of puff on the topic of debate and make increasingly personal, often insulting and idiotic comments about my personal life for which you know nothing about. If you want to start, again, fine, I'll happily throw it right back at you for which you have also previously told me you don't like. So enough, agreed?
I notice you didn't deny it.

Wasn't it you about six months ago telling us that some of your work colleagues would be all too eager to get you sacked so they could get your job?

You're making it really easy for them.
don_dunstan
No, I said money follows money, so if you want it go to where it flows. Some goes up, but most goes down. You want a piece of the action, get closer.

Ask yourself why these people are rich? Focus on those who started out life without a silver spoon and didn't get it through politics. Money didn't just fall into their pockets. Bill Gates & the late Paul Allen, Mark Zukerberg, the Google partners,  Mr Ikea, Elon Musk all invented something through hard work and innovation to provide a service much of us want to use. We give them money in return and they employ 10,000's of people. Even the their personal wealth employs thousands of people in its upkeep and spending. But of course, their evil because they are now rich.


As for the second part, stop trying to demonstrate your ignorance/arrogance/stupidity by 2nd guessing other peoples personal lives, bloody idiot.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
No, I said money follows money, so if you want it go to where it flows. Some goes up, but most goes down. You want a piece of the action, get closer.

Ask yourself why these people are rich? Focus on those who started out life without a silver spoon and didn't get it through politics. Money didn't just fall into their pockets. Bill Gates & the late Paul Allen, Mark Zukerberg, the Google partners,  Mr Ikea, Elon Musk all invented something through hard work and innovation to provide a service much of us want to use. We give them money in return and they employ 10,000's of people. Even the their personal wealth employs thousands of people in its upkeep and spending. But of course, their evil because they are now rich.
RTT_Rules
Most seriously wealthy people inherit their wealth, they don't earn it. According to Forbes Magazine more than sixty percent of US billionaires grew up with that money already. So your theory about the hard-working wealthy person just isn't true, the majority are born that way.

And again with this spiel about how wonderful rich people are because their wealth and privilege are somehow noble and make the rest of us their serfs. How lucky we are that they employ tens of thousands of us poor people simply out of the goodness of their own hearts, not because they actually need those people to help them live their privileged lifestyle and protect/grow their wealth.

Believe me when I say that if they didn't have to employ serfs they wouldn't.
As for the second part, stop trying to demonstrate your ignorance/arrogance/stupidity by 2nd guessing other peoples personal lives, bloody idiot.
RTT_Rules
I'm not second-guessing, you told me yourself that was the situation. Your annoyance at the fact that I remember your stories is mis-placed - if you don't want me to remember these things then don't disclose it to begin with!
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Most seriously wealthy people inherit their wealth, they don't earn it.]
don_dunstan
Which is mostly true or at least they built up their wealth on a healthy foundation.

These days the term 'Hard working Australians' is all the rage. Now I'm pretty sure not every working Australian is working that 'Hard'. Does it mean there are lazy working Australians out there? I've held down jobs were there was nothing particularly hard about the work. Sure I'd rather be on holiday but it wasn't like it was physically or mentally grinding. Perhaps there needs to be a 'hardness' test to see if your job qualifies for a tax cut. Idea

I don't get why pollies are apologising for people earning over $200k having to pay more tax. If you got to that point, regardless of how you got there, you're on a bloody good wicket so stop being so f'ing greedy. Having aspirational-ised myself from the wrong side of the ledger to the right side, I never really minded paying more tax because I could. It's the price for living in a civilised society.

All these tax cuts have to be paid for and it's clear the government will be targeting spending. Spending on those 'other' Australians.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Malcolm Farr on ABC Insiders this morning, "The surplus is not an elephant stamp given to a Government for good economic management. It's not a trophy that goes straight to the pool room."

If the economy doesn't pick up we may finally see how an LNP government might have handled the GFC. Recession v Surplus!
The advantage for them is this is stagnation and not a cataclysmic retraction. When US Investment Banks started collapsing the world tottered on the edge of a precipice and no-one could have predicted how far the global economy would sink. Not the case this time.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Malcolm Farr on ABC Insiders this morning, "The surplus is not an elephant stamp given to a Government for good economic management. It's not a trophy that goes straight to the pool room."

If the economy doesn't pick up we may finally see how an LNP government might have handled the GFC. Recession v Surplus!
The advantage for them is this is stagnation and not a cataclysmic retraction. When US Investment Banks started collapsing the world tottered on the edge of a precipice and no-one could have predicted how far the global economy would sink. Not the case this time.
Groundrelay
You have to worry when people like Andrew Bolt and Peta Credlin are saying the economy needs urgent action AND there's a Liberal government already in power for 6 years. In reality the 'surplus' is non-existent anyway because it'll be required to throw at the failing economy.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Malcolm Farr on ABC Insiders this morning, "The surplus is not an elephant stamp given to a Government for good economic management. It's not a trophy that goes straight to the pool room."

If the economy doesn't pick up we may finally see how an LNP government might have handled the GFC. Recession v Surplus!
The advantage for them is this is stagnation and not a cataclysmic retraction. When US Investment Banks started collapsing the world tottered on the edge of a precipice and no-one could have predicted how far the global economy would sink. Not the case this time.
You have to worry when people like Andrew Bolt and Peta Credlin are saying the economy needs urgent action AND there's a Liberal government already in power for 6 years. In reality the 'surplus' is non-existent anyway because it'll be required to throw at the failing economy.
don_dunstan
And now in the ABC morning news Australia has the highest household to income debt in the world. Obviously RTT's faith in the ability of the average punter to spend wisely is solely misplaced.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-08/australia-leads-the-world-in-household-debt/11286678
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
The tax return bonus will not be used for new purchases, but most likely be used to pay current bills.
More of a debt release than a shot in the arm for the  economy.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
And now in the ABC morning news Australia has the highest household to income debt in the world. Obviously RTT's faith in the ability of the average punter to spend wisely is solely misplaced.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-08/australia-leads-the-world-in-household-debt/11286678
nswtrains
This is a situation that they are working hard to deliberately make worse by increasing the amount of mortgage debt that consumers can take on. I noticed this gem last week on the ABC regarding relaxing mortgage standards;

Under the new standards, implemented by the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA) on Friday, banks will have the freedom to set their own serviceability buffers.

The only restriction is that the banks ensure borrowers can repay their loans if interest rates were at least 2.5 percentage points higher than they are currently.

So they're busy trying to undo the recommendations of the Banking Royal Commission and put more debt into the hands of the punters; despite the fact that the property market is still on the way down. Re-booting the housing bubble appears to be the only solution being pursued by ScoMo.

What could possibly go wrong?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

I'm going to go all lefty today....

Japan are cancelling a whole lot of coal-fired power stations.  That'll make a dint in our coal exports:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/japan-walks-away-from-new-coal-denting-prospects-for-nsw-coal-exports-77196/

Interesting article on the ABC website today in relation to tax cuts:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-10/tax-cuts-could-starve-social-services-increase-crime/11293336
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
This wasn't todays headline!

About 75 per cent of aged pensioners will not be affected by the cut to deeming rates.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-14/federal-government-announces-600-million-pension-boost/11307454?section=politics

The government sticking to having a surplus next Fin Year. Gotta love mining disasters in Brazil.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Hasn't been getting much press in Australia but China's fourth biggest bank (Bank of Jinzhou) is about to be seized by the government having become insolvent. This is despite the injection of 250 billion yuan into the Chinese banking system by the Central Bank - (ZeroHedge);

Unfortunately for China, it won't stop there. As a reminder, China’s smaller lenders have been under growing scrutiny since Baoshang Bank's failure and takeover which led to a sharp repricing of risk for much of China’s banking system which had long operated under an assumption that policy makers would support firms in trouble.

The first of several dominoes to fall I'm guessing.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Barnyard is citing his own budgeting issues in support of an increase to Newstart Surprised
Attitude of the government remains unchanged,
1. They have created thousands of jobs so too bad.
2. It's transitional. There's a job just around the corner!
3. It's going to cost $3 billion and the surplus is far more important.
4. $158 billion in tax cuts will create lots of jobs.

No happy clappy for those trying to live on it, besides fiscal responsibility is character building Razz
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Barnyard is citing his own budgeting issues in support of an increase to Newstart Surprised
Attitude of the government remains unchanged,
1. They have created thousands of jobs so too bad.
2. It's transitional. There's a job just around the corner!
3. It's going to cost $3 billion and the surplus is far more important.
4. $158 billion in tax cuts will create lots of jobs.

No happy clappy for those trying to live on it, besides fiscal responsibility is character building Razz
Groundrelay
I know you hate Pauline but she was spot on about this the other day on Sky; she said they just love to punish to the structurally-unemployed people that they've made that way by off-shoring all the good working class jobs. There's heaps of structural unemployment in our society in my opinion, it's just well-hidden with do-nothing .

Anyway on that point Pauline was never more prescient or correct - they just love to make out that the economy is a bed of roses but frankly 6% unemployed is really 9% unemployed (according to Roy Morgan) and that's really not very good, especially when we here in SA still have the equal-highest unemployment on the mainland - somewhat unusually shared with WA instead of QLD at the moment.

While I'm having a whinge about SA issues; did you see the Advertiser and Australian on the Saturday - both were loaded with paid adverts from the SA government about -
  • Space jobs, lots of them at the "Lot Fourteen" development (old RAH)
  • Lots of stuff about the UniSA and Adelaide Uni expansions on North Terrace;
  • Submarine and frigate jobs plus other numerous semi-secretive things going on we can't really tell you about (in case you haven't heard);
  • Reinforces the fact that we're The Defense State don't you know - just don't mention Yemen;
Isn't Steve Marshall rather handsome to boot? Nothing really about regional SA though.

I had to search for a long time to find the 'paid endorsement' labels, doesn't News Ltd care about crappy old adverts qualifying as editorial content any more? Ridiculous when this kind of guff is integrated with the 'news' so as to appear like the news, why bother buying the newspaper if you only get ads...
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Aussie households have had almost no income growth in the last ten years: The Australian is reporting that household incomes have grown an astonishingly low 3.5% since the GFC - that's without any adjustment for inflation:

“Over the eight-year period from 2009 to 2017, average household income grew by only $3156, or 3.5 per cent, while the median in 2017 was $542 lower than 2009,” the report, which has tracked the circumstances of more than 17,500 Australians since 2001, finds.

Nearly every metric you look at shows that incomes in Australia are not keeping pace with inflation - and depending on what industry you are in you might find your wages are actually going backwards as you have to compete with more entrants into your industry from overseas. Just as well inflation is almost non-existent (ABC);

The Consumer Price Index (CPI) rose 0.6 per cent over the quarter to be up 1.6 per cent for the year.

Core inflation — an average of the trimmed mean and weighted median measures and regarded as the RBA's preferred measure — came in at 1.4 per cent over the year, the same as the first quarter reading and the weakest reading since the series started in 2003.

Another interest rate cut before the end of the year?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Interesting ABC Fact Check article which vindicates Pauline and also notes how our economy might be being "propped up" by high immigration rates:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-31/fact-check-pauline-hanson-population-growth-migration/11360502

Another interesting fact - around 18% of young families in Victoria have no employed parents.  It's even higher in the regions.

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