Badgery’s Creek airport rail link neglects CBD

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 28 Jul 2019 08:41
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I acknowledge that this has been debated innumerable times on this and other forums, but it's one of the most ill-conceived transport planning decisions to come out of this government.  A rail link from the new airport to the outer fringe of the Western Line at St Marys, in whatever format, is not a priority.  How does that serve Greater Western Sydney?

Let's have a reality check here. The only reason the government is proposing this, is to avoid the most bleedingly obvious solution of extending the SWRL to the airport, which just doesn't fit in with their metro expansion agenda. A rail link to St Marys may well be warranted as part of long term rail links on the outer fringe of Sydney, but it's not metro territory.

The more immediate focus should be on connecting the new airport with the CBD via the existing SWRL and East Hills Line express tracks via both Sydney Airport and Sydenham.  It can also provide an interim rail connection between the airport and major Western Sydney centres such as Campbelltown, Liverpool and Parramatta.  It doesn't preclude compatible SD trains being introduced to suit air travellers with luggage at both airports.  The rest can be served by bus until patronage warrants a further rail connection.

It's rather simplistic to suggest that the new airport will only be catering for Western Sydney travellers.  With the likelihood that it could become a hub for budget airlines, it will attract travellers from all over Sydney as well as Regional NSW.  Add to that in-bound tourists, whom I suggest would mostly be destined for inner Sydney, as well as its advantage of being a 24 hr airport.

A business case is currently being undertaken by a Joint Federal/State committee into the Badgerys Creek to St Marys Metro link, but I am fearful that it will not be an objective analysis, including the option of extending the SWRL to the airport, which should be the logical outcome.  It is more likely that they will just rubber stamp what the NSW government wants. The Feds wouldn't have a clue.  I also expect that Infrastructure Australia will rubber stamp that decision, because they are not the independent agency they are purported to be, but tow the Federal government's line.

Badgery’s Creek airport rail link neglects CBD

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  viaprojects Train Controller

I acknowledge that this has been debated innumerable times on this and other forums, but it's one of the most ill-conceived transport planning decisions to come out of this government.  A rail link from the new airport to the outer fringe of the Western Line at St Marys, in whatever format, is not a priority.  How does that serve Greater Western Sydney?
Transtopic


don't like the bs of pin moving of western Sydney...for some reason it's moving south of Sydney's cbd each year... Parramatta vs Liverpool..


Let's have a reality check here.


let's put it this way.. the government is good at delays ... just having the rail link as a planning priority does not mean it will be build in 10 to 50 years... there have been news items about doing a rail link for construction materials / freight services to the site from st marys .. but no current items about the topic ...
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Not so much Liverpool vs Parramatta but why does Parramatta need metro west when they already have a 25 minute service to the cbd and Liverpool which is 55 minutes that often blows out to 60 due to sharing with the inner west that has a major health precinct doesn't have a 20-25 minute connection with the cbd.

This isn't about getting in to the cbd quickly. It is about getting people to Liverpool quickly and by rail instead of car. Whether it is staff to the hospital or lawyers to the court house we need a faster connection to the cbd.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
As I have mentioned previously, I would prefer extending the SWRL to St Marys via the Aerotropolis and the new airport.  This would have far more immediate benefit for the network as a whole by creating a continuous Cumberland Line loop and a more direct and faster express rail link to the CBD.  Even if it can't be completed in time for the airport's opening, it could be constructed in stages, with the first from Leppington to the airport.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Agree, extension of the SW line to the airport should proceed anything from north side by minimum of 5 years, likely more.
  viaprojects Train Controller

why does Parramatta need metro west when they already have a 25 minute service to the cbd and Liverpool which is 55 minutes that often blows out to 60 due to sharing.
simstrain


west metro is a joke but the state government and nimby killed the other options .. also note your welcome to use the fully loaded  35 min Parramatta to central service.

.

This isn't about getting in to the cbd quickly. It is about getting people to Liverpool quickly and by rail instead of car. Whether it is staff to the hospital or lawyers to the court house we need a faster connection to the cbd.


don't need to travel to Sydney cbd.. unless you work there .. Parramatta has courts, Westmead hospital and most government depts. just like most major local cbd's
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
why does Parramatta need metro west when they already have a 25 minute service to the cbd and Liverpool which is 55 minutes that often blows out to 60 due to sharing.


west metro is a joke but the state government and nimby killed the other options .. also note your welcome to use the fully loaded  35 min Parramatta to central service.

.
This isn't about getting in to the cbd quickly. It is about getting people to Liverpool quickly and by rail instead of car. Whether it is staff to the hospital or lawyers to the court house we need a faster connection to the cbd.

don't need to travel to Sydney cbd.. unless you work there .. Parramatta has courts, Westmead hospital and most government depts. just like most major local cbd's
viaprojects
Sorry, I may be a little bit thick, but I don't understand the point you're making.  Some of your comments seem to be contradictory. What are you actually in favour of?
  viaprojects Train Controller

Sorry, I may be a little bit thick, but I don't understand the point you're making.  Some of your comments seem to be contradictory. What are you actually in favour of?
Transtopic


too much focus on transport to the Sydney CBD ... St Marys to Badgerys's creek need to be started ASAP otherwise it just drops off after planning for either freight or passenger options ( standard rail options or the metro ) ..

too early for a metro build but just like the northern metro a rail link is needed for materials to build the line and the airport... so a St Mary's rail option is an real requirement..   a option from Liverpool is not a fast solution as government is planning tunnels ..
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Sorry, I may be a little bit thick, but I don't understand the point you're making.  Some of your comments seem to be contradictory. What are you actually in favour of?


too much focus on transport to the Sydney CBD ... St Marys to Badgerys's creek need to be started ASAP otherwise it just drops off after planning for either freight or passenger options ( standard rail options or the metro ) ..

too early for a metro build but just like the northern metro a rail link is needed for materials to build the line and the airport... so a St Mary's rail option is an real requirement..   a option from Liverpool is not a fast solution as government is planning tunnels ..
viaprojects
Thanks for clarifying that.  I now understand where you're coming from.

Where you and I differ is that a rail connection to the CBD SHOULD be the major focus on providing a rail service for inbound tourists, as well as those other inner city bound locals, which has been overlooked.  It's not just going to be patronised by Western Sydney travellers.  

A St Marys to Badgerys Creek Airport link is no doubt warranted, whether metro of existing Sydney Trains services, but it's not the first priority. The most obvious priority is to extend the SWRL to the airport, providing a more direct and faster link to the CBD as well as connecting with the major Western Sydney strategic centres, with a second stage extending to St Marys.  What happens beyond that is decades away.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

why does Parramatta need metro west when they already have a 25 minute service to the cbd and Liverpool which is 55 minutes that often blows out to 60 due to sharing.


west metro is a joke but the state government and nimby killed the other options .. also note your welcome to use the fully loaded  35 min Parramatta to central service.

.
This isn't about getting in to the cbd quickly. It is about getting people to Liverpool quickly and by rail instead of car. Whether it is staff to the hospital or lawyers to the court house we need a faster connection to the cbd.

don't need to travel to Sydney cbd.. unless you work there .. Parramatta has courts, Westmead hospital and most government depts. just like most major local cbd's
viaprojects

There are no 35 minute Parramatta to central services. 27-28 minutes at most for all train services from Parramatta to central. 24 minutes for the blue mountains service. All Parramatta peak hour T1 services are first stop Strathfield then Redfern and central and there are 17 such services between 8am and 9am and about 8 an hour in off peak with the addition of Lidcombe station.

Most people who live in Liverpool work in Liverpool or the surrounding areas and don't work in the Sydney CBD as it is too difficult to get to. This is not to say people don't need to commute to the Sydney CBD but most of Liverpool's passenger rail traffic was north and south bound along the T5 corridor. It is why there are more people in Liverpool upset at the removal of T2/T5 services to Campbelltown then the metro cutting the T3 at Bankstown.

Yes Parramatta has all these places like Liverpool but they also have a quick and easy connection to the Sydney CBD and there is much traffic between those 2 CBD's because public transport is quick and easy. Liverpool doesn't have that quick and easy PT access and therefore don't have the people to go in to the CBD or that want to come to the Liverpool CBD.

Ask yourself if you had to work in the Sydney CBD every day where would you want to live if it had to be in the western Suburbs (west of say Lidcombe)? Liverpool would not be on the top 25 list. It wouldn't even be in the top 50.
  viaprojects Train Controller



Where you and I differ is that a rail connection to the CBD SHOULD be the major focus
Transtopic


you do know there will be two rail connections to the Sydney CBD ... when the airport is fully built .. maybe 3 by rail if everything is connected..


major focus on providing a rail service for inbound tourists, as well as those other inner city bound locals, which has been overlooked.
Transtopic


go west... not every tourist comes to Sydney to see the harbour... and there are a lot that don't use rail to move around the city ..
  simstrain Chief Commissioner



Where you and I differ is that a rail connection to the CBD SHOULD be the major focus


you do know there will be two rail connections to the Sydney CBD ... when the airport is fully built .. maybe 3 by rail if everything is connected..


major focus on providing a rail service for inbound tourists, as well as those other inner city bound locals, which has been overlooked.


go west... not every tourist comes to Sydney to see the harbour... and there are a lot that don't use rail to move around the city ..
viaprojects

Every tourist does pretty much come to see the harbour and attractions around the cbd and not the rest of the city. The only other major tourist area not in the cbd is Katoomba. This is why moving the powerhouse is a bad idea. Tourists are only interested in the city.

I agree that the swrl should connect directly to the airport. It could easily offer a 30 minute trip in to the CBD. I also think that the airport should be a rail hub as well as an airline hub.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sydney metro greater west has just been announced as the name for the airport link from st marys.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney


Where you and I differ is that a rail connection to the CBD SHOULD be the major focus


you do know there will be two rail connections to the Sydney CBD ... when the airport is fully built .. maybe 3 by rail if everything is connected..




viaprojects
I'm well aware of that, but I'd hardly call a rail link to the CBD via St Marys as being the most convenient and direct and it will certainly be a lot slower than a more direct link via the SWRL and East Hills Line.  I don't regard the St Marys link as being a CBD rail connection.  If and when the Metro West is extended to the airport, it will provide a more direct and faster route than via St Marys, but whether it will be faster than a route via the SWRL extension is doubtful, as it will be an all stops service.  In any event, it's decades away and as we all know, plans can change or even be cancelled over multiple electoral cycles.  Just look at how things have changed over the last couple of decades.


The most absurd thing about the current proposal is that extension of the SWRL to the airport is given a low priority and even then it won't connect with the airport itself, but will terminate at the Aerotropolis, requiring interchange to the metro to reach the airport.  I can't think of anything more bizarre, when the simplest and fastest way to connect the airport with the CBD and the Greater Sydney Region is to extend the SWRL through to St Marys via the Aerotropolis and airport.  It's another example of how the government's ideological metro agenda is compromising sensible transport planning.

When the new airport is eventually privatised, as is the intention, the new owners will want to actively compete with Sydney Airport for customers from all over the Sydney Region.  There won't be any demarcation.  They're not going to be content with just catering for a Western Sydney market.   That is why a fast rail link to the CBD should receive the highest priority if the Commonwealth government wants to maximise its eventual sale price.
  viaprojects Train Controller


  That is why a fast rail link to the CBD should receive the highest priority if the Commonwealth government wants to maximise its eventual sale price.
Transtopic



you do know that roads and rail is a state government issue not a fed item... nsw gov. is more focused on the road networks around both airports at the current time.. ie the green space from st mary to the airport is an old road project with some plans for rail due to the airport..
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney

  That is why a fast rail link to the CBD should receive the highest priority if the Commonwealth government wants to maximise its eventual sale price.


you do know that roads and rail is a state government issue not a fed item... nsw gov. is more focused on the road networks around both airports at the current time.. ie the green space from st mary to the airport is an old road project with some plans for rail due to the airport..
viaprojects
A rail link connection to Badgerys Creek Airport will be jointly funded by the NSW and Federal Governments.  The options in the Joint Federal/State Study were the North/South link from St Marys; an extension of Metro West from Westmead and extension of the SWRL from Leppington.  No doubt heavily influenced by the State Government, they chose the North/South link as a stand alone metro line as a first stage in a longer term plan for an outer suburban orbital metro link between Metro Northwest at Tallawong and Macarthur.  This could be decades away, if in fact it's ever built, which would leave the proposed metro link with St Marys as an orphan.

Let's face it, the only reason why the Joint Study favoured the North/South metro link, instead of what any reasonable person would consider to be the most obvious choice of extending the SWRL, was because any further extensions to the existing network is anathema to the State Government.  They are blinded by their metro expansion agenda, regardless of how appropriate it may be in some circumstances, such as rail connections to Badgerys Creek Airport on the Western fringe of Sydney.  This isn't metro territory.

BTW, the Federal Government also contributed to funding road upgrades around the airport.
  viaprojects Train Controller


   This isn't metro territory..
Transtopic


+1 but about the same length as stage one metro ( have to pass on length of tunnels )... https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/corridors/nsrl-swrl

BTW, the Federal Government also contributed to funding road upgrades around the airport


when a main road had to be rerouted including upgrading goat track to the front door.. developers have to pay some of the costs

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