Start Sydney to Canberra high speed rail now: chief executives

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 04 Nov 2019 13:43
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The property council and developers now calling for the high speed rail service between Sydney and Canberra to be delivered and why not?  this is the best high speed project to get started on a par with Melbourne to Geelong or Melbourne to Ballarat but would have a better national significance.

The idea of building more flights into the Canberra Airport and allowing a 50 minute journey CBD to CBD to Sydney from Canberra seems so logical to most of us but it is continually ignored due to other conflicting interests.

The rail journey from the proposed Badgery's Creek airport to the Sydney CBD would probably and might well take longer for a customer than Canberra to Sydney.

Other benefits including opening up Canberra to tourism from Sydney based or Sydney entered tourists.

Start Sydney to Canberra high speed rail now: chief executives

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  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Always back the horse named "self Intrest" it's the only one trying.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The property council and developers now calling for the high speed rail service between Sydney and Canberra to be delivered and why not?  this is the best high speed project to get started on a par with Melbourne to Geelong or Melbourne to Ballarat but would have a better national significance.

The idea of building more flights into the Canberra Airport and allowing a 50 minute journey CBD to CBD to Sydney from Canberra seems so logical to most of us but it is continually ignored due to other conflicting interests.

The rail journey from the proposed Badgery's Creek airport to the Sydney CBD would probably and might well take longer for a customer than Canberra to Sydney.

Other benefits including opening up Canberra to tourism from Sydney based or Sydney entered tourists.

Start Sydney to Canberra high speed rail now: chief executives
The warning sign was here, they want to build a railway to move people from Canberra (pop 300k) to the city faster than people who live in western Sydney (pop 1M+ and growing alot faster).

Syd is getting a 2nd airport in Western Sydney, the long proposed alt of using Canberra and building a fast (something, rail, monorail, Maglev, hyperloop.......) to Sydney has been well and truly killed off. The cost of the HSR alone would exceed the construction cost of Western Sydney Airport.

Canberra is so close that if Sydney people want to go a on a holiday to Canberra, they already will, HSR will not change this and still doesn't solve the issue of getting around in Can.

MSR Syd - Can, 2h journey time, totally agree and I dare say the business case is fairly supportive. However 50min HSR Syd - Can to a city of 1/3 Million people, is purely pi$$ing taxpayer moneys up against the wall.

No, Geelong will not get HSR, it will get enhanced LSR or maybe MSR.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Forget comparing door-to-door times for real journeys*, a fast Sydney-Canberra train will struggle to be competitive because many journeys will have more time spent before and after the part of the journey on the fast train (getting from their origin to the Sydney station, waiting/connection time there, connection time at the Canberra station, getting from the Canberra station to their destination) than the time it would take to drive directly.

Serious modal shift will only happen once other options are taken off the table.

* Remember people, the hypothetical CBD to CBD journey is a thought exercise and not how real people actually travel between major cities!

No, Geelong will not get HSR, it will get enhanced LSR or maybe MSR.
RTT_Rules
It would be realistic for Geelong to get what the International Union of Railways (of which PTV is an Affiliate Member) defines as Category II High Speed Rail - classic lines upgraded to allow maximum running speeds of at least 200 km/h in service.

Category I High Speed Rail (dedicated tracks, maximum speed in service of at least 250 km/h) is inappropriate for a commuter belt service to a dormitory town like Geelong.

Category I might be appropriate for towns along the Melbourne-Sydney route or for Ballarat as a by-product of doing full intercity routes to replace Melbourne-Sydney and Melbourne-Adelaide air travel, but that kind of long-term leadership is never going to happen so long as the airlines keep both major political parties in their pocket.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Forget comparing door-to-door times for real journeys*, a fast Sydney-Canberra train will struggle to be competitive because many journeys will have more time spent before and after the part of the journey on the fast train (getting from their origin to the Sydney station, waiting/connection time there, connection time at the Canberra station, getting from the Canberra station to their destination) than the time it would take to drive directly.

Serious modal shift will only happen once other options are taken off the table.

* Remember people, the hypothetical CBD to CBD journey is a thought exercise and not how real people actually travel between major cities!

No, Geelong will not get HSR, it will get enhanced LSR or maybe MSR.
It would be realistic for Geelong to get what the International Union of Railways (of which PTV is an Affiliate Member) defines as Category II High Speed Rail - classic lines upgraded to allow maximum running speeds of at least 200 km/h in service.

Category I High Speed Rail (dedicated tracks, maximum speed in service of at least 250 km/h) is inappropriate for a commuter belt service to a dormitory town like Geelong.

Category I might be appropriate for towns along the Melbourne-Sydney route or for Ballarat as a by-product of doing full intercity routes to replace Melbourne-Sydney and Melbourne-Adelaide air travel, but that kind of long-term leadership is never going to happen so long as the airlines keep both major political parties in their pocket.
justapassenger
Thanks

I read a few years back

LSR - defined as up to 160km/h which can be done with standard rollingstock on good quality track even wooden sleepers.

MSR - defined as up to 200 - 220 km/h which is the upper limit for the driver to see the track side signals. Also the upper limit for diesel traction and typically requires the use of track of high level of design etc. Trains can still mix with other train types including freight.

HSR - was basically beyond above and typically built for operations 250 - 350 km/h, although sustained operations above 300 - 320 km/h seems to be a costly challenge. Typically operates of on network and not mix with other types of rail technology or services outside major stations and yards.

At the time steel wheel on steel rail technology was not deemed viable beyond 350 km/h and I doubt we will RPT +350km/h  running anytime soon.

This is why I whole heartily support the introduction of MSR / Cat II between Sydney and Canberra and Sydney and Newcastle.

However I still question the viability Mel to Geelong. The current trains do 160km/h, the sectional times is roughly 1h 15min for a 75km rail journey. Top end speed is clearly not a limitation here, rather its not travelling over 100km/h enough.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I sometimes wonder if he thinks in acronyms or only writes in acronyms?
Clearly a sprinkling of unexplained acronyms means STTAB.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

I sometimes wonder if he thinks in acronyms or only writes in acronyms?
Clearly a sprinkling of unexplained acronyms means STTAB.
YM-Mundrabilla
OK! I'll bite. STTAB?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I sometimes wonder if he thinks in acronyms or only writes in acronyms?
Clearly a sprinkling of unexplained acronyms means STTAB.
OK! I'll bite. STTAB?
michaelgm
Thanks Michael.

Not aimed at you of course and it will, without fail, go high over the head(s) of those at whom it was aimed.
STTAB is YABUA !! Smile

Please don't tell those in the STTAB category. It's a secret and would hate to disillusion them. Smile

STTAB = 'Smarter than the average bear'
YABUA = 'Yet another bloody unexplained acronym'.
  C2 Junior Train Controller

We are mega rich country, remember $76 billion a year to overseas share holders. So why can't we do this  HSR after 30 years of talking..Monty python lives on RP.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
We are mega rich country, remember $76 billion a year to overseas share holders. So why can't we do this  HSR after 30 years of talking..Monty python lives on RP.
C2
Simply because there Is a smorgasbord of far more viable urban transit projects that lack the required funding and resources to make them happen.
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The problem is that those uninformed business groups who jump on the bandwagon of "High Speed Rail" haven't got a clue what they're talking about.  They confuse "High Speed Rail" with "Faster Speed Rail" or "Medium Speed Rail", which I think what is intended. If they can get down to a sub 3 hour journey for an upgraded rail service, then it would be competitive with car and coach travel.  I can't see HSR ever being a viable option in Australia with our long distances and sparse population between the major centres. Perhaps when we reach 50 million, then it might be an option.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I sometimes wonder if he thinks in acronyms or only writes in acronyms?
Clearly a sprinkling of unexplained acronyms means STTAB.
YM-Mundrabilla
Well this is a rail forum and those acronyms are often used in rail related articles which is obviously where I got it from and I actually stated the definition as I understood it.

Now, you can be a normal person and if you don't understand or what clarification and simply ask OR you can be a diick about it.

Your choice!

PS, I think you know any industry is full of acronyms, certainly everyone I've ever worked in and even regional dialects of acronyms, openly used in conferences and technical and industry papers and names for the same thing, so yes I think we ALL think in acronyms.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
We are mega rich country, remember $76 billion a year to overseas share holders. So why can't we do this  HSR after 30 years of talking..Monty python lives on RP.
C2
Spend $76B building a High Speed Rail Project that is used by maybe 20,000 people a day, even if 100,000 people a day.

OR spend $76B on commuter and inter urban rail?

The Sydney NWRL Metro cost $5B and is used by ~60,000 people a day. Adding the NWRL, City and South West Metro and Western Metro projects all together (agree with them or not) and the cost is around $35B, half the $76B and likely used by 250,000 - 300,000 people a day.

Which do you think is better for the environment and more useful with that limited pool of cash?
  C2 Junior Train Controller

Why is there no political will for 200km/h between Mel,Syd,Bris ARTC won't  request it. Albo is  VFT . Morrison is on the money with his ideas if only he sticks to 200km/h.max. But why not Mel,Syd massive upgrade with Junee to Yass deviation. Then the rest will benefit Canberra. I would like to get on the train at Seymour and be in Canberra 6 Hours.. I would vote yes to a  200km/h Mel,Syd.Bris referendum.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I sometimes wonder if he thinks in acronyms or only writes in acronyms?
Clearly a sprinkling of unexplained acronyms means STTAB.
Well this is a rail forum and those acronyms are often used in rail related articles which is obviously where I got it from and I actually stated the definition as I understood it.

Now, you can be a normal person and if you don't understand or what clarification and simply ask OR you can be a diick about it.

Your choice!

PS, I think you know any industry is full of acronyms, certainly everyone I've ever worked in and even regional dialects of acronyms, openly used in conferences and technical and industry papers and names for the same thing, so yes I think we ALL think in acronyms.
RTT_Rules
Having divided posters/readers here on RP into 'normal persons' and 'diicks' we can proceed from there.

At the outset the diversity of your posts far exceeds those of most of us and often covers a large range of rail topics, electricity generation, car engines, climate change, the economy, coal mining and aluminium production. To my limited knowledge these posts are uniformly reliable.

I used to read many of your posts with interest but I have tired of the inevitable unexplained acronyms. We do not all live in your world and I certainly do not speak your language. I suppose this makes me a 'diick'. If so, then so be it. I will stand by my record in the Australian Rail Industry which I do not intend to justify to anyone on here.

We all need, from time to time, to consider the content, accuracy, format and level of information we are posting on RP but having divided posters into 'normal people'and 'diicks' we can further divide those groups into those who post to inform or question and those who post largely to display their supposed knowledge. Clearly you do not fall into the latter category.

Undoubtedly, we are from differing eras, backgrounds, training and education (perhaps in the UoHK*) and all that I was asking was that you explain the esoteric and less well known acronyms that you use so as to make your posts easily readable without the need of Wikipedia (often useless), a dictionary (always useless) or having to ask (and be/appear a 'diick') and lose the thread continuity. On a rail forum what does one immediately think ICE?

My aim is not to pick an argument but rather hope to make your posts more readable to myself and, perhaps, more informative to any other 'diicks' here on RP.

* University of Hard Knocks. (As distinct from University of Hong Kong!)

End of rant. Keep smiling. Smile
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I will happily join YM-Mundrabilla amongst the dicks.

There are people ( and I will not go into the definition of "normal") who love their acronyms, whilst completely ignoring the fact that the purpose of language is to communicate. I could rabbit on about NPSH-R and EoC which anyone in my field understands. That would show how clever I am at confusing people who don't know the meanings, and would add nothing to the sum of human knowledge.

Either you post here to show how smart you are, or you post so that everyone may understand.  

Take your seats; normals to the left and dicks to the right please.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I cannot understand why some people here are so Canberra centric .
Your average punter could not give a damn about the place because its in the middle of nowhere and has so little to offer .
Why blow billions to bias a proposed interstate railway when precious few would use it , more than once anyway .
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I cannot understand why some people here are so Canberra centric .
Your average punter could not give a damn about the place because its in the middle of nowhere and has so little to offer .
Why blow billions to bias a proposed interstate railway when precious few would use it , more than once anyway .
BDA
Absolutely.
Canberra, closely followed by Geelong in the sacred cow stakes.
Canberra, at least, has the War Memorial.
  C2 Junior Train Controller

I'll solve it. Remove states and territories replace with counties , these counties  will have councils and a fedetal member. Canberra closed Federal parliament back to Melbourne .No Senate  and no Bloody Victoria. too.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I'll solve it. Remove states and territories replace with counties , these counties  will have councils and a fedetal member. Canberra closed Federal parliament back to Melbourne .No Senate  and no Bloody Victoria. too.
C2
You going to run for President?
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Having divided posters/readers here on RP into 'normal persons' and 'diicks' we can proceed from there.

At the outset the diversity of your posts far exceeds those of most of us and often covers a large range of rail topics, electricity generation, car engines, climate change, the economy, coal mining and aluminium production. To my limited knowledge these posts are uniformly reliable.

I used to read many of your posts with interest but I have tired of the inevitable unexplained acronyms. We do not all live in your world and I certainly do not speak your language. I suppose this makes me a 'diick'. If so, then so be it. I will stand by my record in the Australian Rail Industry which I do not intend to justify to anyone on here.

We all need, from time to time, to consider the content, accuracy, format and level of information we are posting on RP but having divided posters into 'normal people'and 'diicks' we can further divide those groups into those who post to inform or question and those who post largely to display their supposed knowledge. Clearly you do not fall into the latter category.

Undoubtedly, we are from differing eras, backgrounds, training and education (perhaps in the UoHK*) and all that I was asking was that you explain the esoteric and less well known acronyms that you use so as to make your posts easily readable without the need of Wikipedia (often useless), a dictionary (always useless) or having to ask (and be/appear a 'diick') and lose the thread continuity. On a rail forum what does one immediately think ICE?

My aim is not to pick an argument but rather hope to make your posts more readable to myself and, perhaps, more informative to any other 'diicks' here on RP.

* University of Hard Knocks. (As distinct from University of Hong Kong!)

End of rant. Keep smiling. Smile
YM-Mundrabilla
Hi
My position is this.

In a media that is typed, short hand creeps in, either through habit or for sake of time. If I'm in a Sydney based rail forum, then its reasonable to believe that most people in that forum would be familiar with Sydney and hence understand the term "NSL" = "North Shore Line". If I was to post in Brisbane based forum referencing Sydney's "North Shore Line", this I should use the full name or at least reference the acronym. However in the same thread should you do this every post??? Technically yes, but unlikely.

In the same token, should "Nth" be used over "North", technically no. But should someone also have to explain "ATM" or "TV" or "ABC", the list is endless?

What about the use of "XPT" or "XPL", the former especially is NSW based, but I suspect few rail fans or industry employees in Australia would need for explanation, but when was the last time you saw it written in full?

Our everyday language is full of everyday acronym's and as you know industry more so, if we were in the same room I could show my work email INBOX. (99% of more of my companies 6500 work force do not have English as their first language. for some reason they grab acronyms more so).    

"ICE" in a rail context titled thread I would take as "Inter City Express", but in a thread on Electric Vehicles or "EV", I would take as "Internal Combustion Engine" and to be honest this is an acronym that I learnt in here, but now seeing increased use in other media as is the term "EV", "HEV", "BEV", "PHEV" etc, many of which I've also had to Google along the way. On a side note, "Google" is actually a noun, not a verb but now means to so something specific, but do we need to expand this or just assume common 21st century language?

My point and reference to my use of "the diick" comment. I think its the context and forum that the acronym or jargon is used and your expected audience on whether or not its ok to use up front or expand on use. Is it perfect English to never expand, probably not. I normally find if in doubt my own Google or simply asking for explanation without sarcasm also works wonders. Perhaps its the written media forum we are using that looses some of the personal touch and I took it the wrong way???  I don't have an issue asking for an explanation for an acronym, maybe I just so used to doing it. You obviously don't feel the same way, ok I'll see how I can improve.

Regarding your comments on my experience, I know about how to make aluminium, that you can be sure of and a few other material processes. As for the rest is 25% RP, 50% Google/Wiki, 25% other including personal experience and just an opinion, (sometimes too strong opinion, or others have too strong an opinion which is why I stay away from some forums in the Lounge) for which if you don't agree, feel free to challenge including the use of any acronym and enjoy the friendly discussion.
  C2 Junior Train Controller

The People's Republic of  Australia. We will re gauge all of Australia's railways lines  to Russian gauge with Iranian manufactured rolling stock . Sydney renamed New Shanghai..I'll be a shoe in..
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The People's Republic of  Australia. We will re gauge all of Australia's railways lines  to Russian gauge with Iranian manufactured rolling stock . Sydney renamed New Shanghai..I'll be a shoe in..
C2
Instead of the smartarse comments, let's get back on track to the subject of this thread.  Whether you like it or not, Canberra is a significant population centre, approaching 400,000 I believe, which puts Geelong in the shade.  It's equivalent to the population of Newcastle and the Hunter region, which is the nearest major population centre to Sydney. A study is already underway for a faster rail link between Sydney and Newcastle and that is for Medium Speed Rail, not High Speed Rail. The same principle should apply for an upgraded rail link between Sydney and Canberra, which is entirely feasible to get it below 3 hours to be competitive with road and coach travel.  It's not High Speed Rail.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The People's Republic of  Australia. We will re gauge all of Australia's railways lines  to Russian gauge with Iranian manufactured rolling stock . Sydney renamed New Shanghai..I'll be a shoe in..
Instead of the smartarse comments, let's get back on track to the subject of this thread.  Whether you like it or not, Canberra is a significant population centre, approaching 400,000 I believe, which puts Geelong in the shade.  It's equivalent to the population of Newcastle and the Hunter region, which is the nearest major population centre to Sydney. A study is already underway for a faster rail link between Sydney and Newcastle and that is for Medium Speed Rail, not High Speed Rail. The same principle should apply for an upgraded rail link between Sydney and Canberra, which is entirely feasible to get it below 3 hours to be competitive with road and coach travel.  It's not High Speed Rail.
Transtopic
Agree, there is about 20-40km of excess route km that could be eliminated, this gets the distance below 300km, 3h is only average 100km/h or worse if you cut the route back to 280km. 2h travel time is around 150km/h average so 2.5h or 133km/h should be too hard, even the RTT (Rocky Tilt Train) can manage almost 100km/h for the entire ~700km trip and less than 1/3 is dual track. Not exactly a hard core upgrade.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Canberra is a significant population centre, approaching 400,000 I believe
Transtopic
Gone past that already. 420,960 in March 2019 according to this https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/5992052/canberra-population-sprints-past-420000-new-figures-show/. And that's just the ACT, not the significant portion of southern NSW it also acts as the hub for.

But please you lot, just keep believing Canberra is the bum end of the universe, makes it more pleasant for the locals...

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