New Sydney Intercity Trains

 
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
There has not been that much information about the new Intercity Trains that should of come on the CCN line around now. Does anybody have any information about the new trains, or want to discuss anything about these new trains and what is changing?

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  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Locomotive Driver

The D Sets (NIF) are running late. Test set to arrive November/December 2019.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
So, they are now called D Sets? Okay, thanks for telling me.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
OBSERVATIONS

-I've seen new 10 carriage markers at some stations on the Central Coast & Newcastle (CCN) line, I can't remember where exactly, but they were definitely at Warnervale.

-Platform 1 at Admastown has been stupidly (I say stupidly because this station should be served by appropriate local services that intercity trains should not be stopping there) extended to accommodate longer trains without blocking the level crossing.

-The position of the 10 carriage maker at Warnervale and the extended Platform 1 (as opposed to Platform 2) indicates that short platforms will involve passengers alighting from the front carriages and not the current practice of alighting from the rear. I suspect this has something to do with Driver Only Operation (DOO).


-Construction has began on the maintenance facility at Kangy Angy between Tuggerah and Ourimbah stations.


QUESTIONS

-Is there any reliable source of information that these trains will actually be called 'D-Sets', or is it just speculation?

-How long will testing last? 3 months? and when are they expected to enter services now? March?
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Locomotive Driver

So, they are now called D Sets? Okay, thanks for telling me.
AheadMatthewawsome
That's been known for a while, and TOC waivers back that up.
Waiver
  SupremeLeaderSmeagol Locomotive Driver

OBSERVATIONS

-I've seen new 10 carriage markers at some stations on the Central Coast & Newcastle (CCN) line, I can't remember where exactly, but they were definitely at Warnervale.

-Platform 1 at Admastown has been stupidly (I say stupidly because this station should be served by appropriate local services that intercity trains should not be stopping there) extended to accommodate longer trains without blocking the level crossing.

-The position of the 10 carriage maker at Warnervale and the extended Platform 1 (as opposed to Platform 2) indicates that short platforms will involve passengers alighting from the front carriages and not the current practice of alighting from the rear. I suspect this has something to do with Driver Only Operation (DOO).


-Construction has began on the maintenance facility at Kangy Angy between Tuggerah and Ourimbah stations.


QUESTIONS

-Is there any reliable source of information that these trains will actually be called 'D-Sets', or is it just speculation?

-How long will testing last? 3 months? and when are they expected to enter services now? March?
Ethan1395
Q1 - Answered in previous post
Q2 - Hopefully - we don't really know. Apparently testing has been happening in Korea, so hopefully a reduced test phase here before revenue service. March does seem like a good time.
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

I won't be waiting on the dock in anticipation of the boat arriving with the first D sets.

We should never have built this train overseas. It was a backward move and it has resulted in a backward train. What was the logic behind building this crap when G and Oscar sets before them had directional seating?

Going from a V set to a D set is a retrograde move but such is the political reflection of voters in regional NSW.
  icdog Train Controller

Location: Smegville
I won't be waiting on the dock in anticipation of the boat arriving with the first D sets.

We should never have built this train overseas. It was a backward move and it has resulted in a backward train. What was the logic behind building this crap when G and Oscar sets before them had directional seating?

Going from a V set to a D set is a retrograde move but such is the political reflection of voters in regional NSW.
ANR
From what I understand Hyundai Rotem produce a product far superior to anything built here, don't fall for the union BS!
  viaprojects Train Controller

From what I understand Hyundai Rotem produce a product far superior to anything built here, don't fall for the union BS!
icdog


well we are not building product .. all being outsourced to overseas companies ..so product will be superior
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

Superior to what?

The V sets are Australian designed and Australian built. Fit for purpose.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Location of build does not dictate fit out or actual "fit for purpose" out come. The scoping documents issued by or on behalf of the project owner dictate that so this is the Australian component of the train.

As for flipping seats, outdated and unnecessary, 50% face forward and 50% face back in any one time. Cheaper, easier and you get a much better seat with potential for table power etc and seating density as a result.
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

The scoping was incredibly lazy, with a cheap and unimaginative outcome. It is just a rehashed Oscar. Where are the additional doors to keep the cold or heat out of the cabins? It's just a suburban train that should be kept on suburban rails. Waste of money that will see unnecessary remediation work later on with seat changes etc. An electric chair has never looked so good when you see these short video clips
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The scoping was incredibly lazy, with a cheap and unimaginative outcome. It is just a rehashed Oscar. Where are the additional doors to keep the cold or heat out of the cabins? It's just a suburban train that should be kept on suburban rails. Waste of money that will see unnecessary remediation work later on with seat changes etc. An electric chair has never looked so good when you see these short video clips
ANR
In Australia, most people associate B737 or A320 to a short distance domestic flight typically not exceeding 2.5h. Either single class or dual class cabin, limited service, close seating. However other OS airlines use the same planes on 5-6h international flights with higher standards of seating and service. My point being that a platform does not usually dictate the final use, its the fit out. The days of making specific longer distance and shorter distance trains or planes is long over.

QR used basically the same platform train for SMU, mostly less than 1h, IMU, mostly less than 3h and the ICE sets which used to run to Rocky, so 9h. However seating, toilet and even on board service was very different for each.

The V-sets were a great train that I spent many years using, but the designers didn't think about the access and station dwell time a great deal or the 1970's thinking of small numbers using most stations drove the design and it was otherwise ok to sit at the major station for up to 3min discharging and loading pax. That was all great until train frequency deemed this not acceptable anymore plus it impacts on train sectional times.

I don't see a 2nd set of doors necessary and really just another thing to limit the design and break, especially on intercity services where stops are further apart. Where NSW was lacking was the ability for pax to open the doors as required (actually V-sets had this), rather than all open, lets have 8 cars sit at the station bleeding their AC into the heat/cold. Qld started out with Pax initiated individual door opening. Ideally the doors should then after say 30sec after detecting the last passenger movement the doors should close.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Superior to what?

The V sets are Australian designed and Australian built. Fit for purpose.
ANR

V sets are not as nice as some people make out. I have never found them to be the wonder seat that some on here profess them to be. The Oscar is a much better train just let down by the church pew seats. I overcome this by taking my own cushion to sit on. Hopefully the new trains will have better seats.
  M636C Minister for Railways

As for flipping seats, outdated and unnecessary, 50% face forward and 50% face back in any one time. Cheaper, easier and you get a much better seat with potential for table power etc and seating density as a result.


When I've travelled on V sets or Oscars for that matter, passengers will select forward facing seats, and will usually reverse rearward facing seats unless there is a group of four travelling together. If people are so happy to face the rear. why don't they use those seats already facing the rear?

Seat density on the D sets can't be a big worry since there is one less row on both decks to allow a lower angle on the stairways.

The rotating and reclining seats in the XPT and Explorer have tables, and it wouldn't be difficult to design a non reclining version, and USB power could be fitted to reversible seats like those in the V sets which have fixed arm rests as well as to rotating seats.

I certainly haven't found fixed seats to be more comfortable than reversible seats in general. Certainly that was an argument for the Tangara seats, but the seats on later suburban cars are more comfortable as well as being reversible.

Peter
  Throughwestmail Train Controller


I don't see a 2nd set of doors necessary and really just another thing to limit the design and break, especially on intercity services where stops are further apart. Where NSW was lacking was the ability for pax to open the doors as required (actually V-sets had this), rather than all open, lets have 8 cars sit at the station bleeding their AC into the heat/cold. Qld started out with Pax initiated individual door opening. Ideally the doors should then after say 30sec after detecting the last passenger movement the doors should close.
RTT_Rules
I don't understand your argument here. The V sets have internal vestibule doors that do stop the a/c from the rest of the car,  as you put it " the bleeding of the a/c into the heat or cold". I believe the NIF cars do not have this, so when a set of doors open, the a/c from the whole car is open to the elements. Will be wonderful for the passengers sitting at the very ends of the cars when the doors open at Katoomba with a howling gale and minus 5 temperatures in the middle of winter.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

I don't see a 2nd set of doors necessary and really just another thing to limit the design and break, especially on intercity services where stops are further apart. Where NSW was lacking was the ability for pax to open the doors as required (actually V-sets had this), rather than all open, lets have 8 cars sit at the station bleeding their AC into the heat/cold. Qld started out with Pax initiated individual door opening. Ideally the doors should then after say 30sec after detecting the last passenger movement the doors should close.I don't understand your argument here. The V sets have internal vestibule doors that do stop the a/c from the rest of the car,  as you put it " the bleeding of the a/c into the heat or cold". I believe the NIF cars do not have this, so when a set of doors open, the a/c from the whole car is open to the elements. Will be wonderful for the passengers sitting at the very ends of the cars when the doors open at Katoomba with a howling gale and minus 5 temperatures in the middle of winter.
Throughwestmail
FYI: I spent 8 years sleeping in V-set 10 times a week so I'm very familiar with them.

The V-set has the intermediate door and semi-manual main doors, ie, unless someone opened them at the station the door remains closed.

The V-sets and any other train on the Inter-urban runs have a low density stopping pattern, that is in there 3h run they have roughly 28 stops or one every 6min, vs 2-3 min for suburban sets, so the doors open less often and if you factor in the short stations some doors won't open for over half the stops.

So doors open less frequently and only as needed. So the opportunity to bleed AC air into the outside world is far less than the suburban sets and hence they really don't need the internal door and if you look at the unloading of a V-set, its a F'n pain in the smeg for pax, especially those with things already in their hands and just slows the whole process down. Woy Woy station it used to take 1-2min, sometimes longer to discharge a crowded V-set. Likewise Hornsby, this dwell times are no longer acceptable. You can also not build a train with such a narrow entrance into the main cabin due to DAA issues.

Additionally the vestibule of a V-set was quite noisy compared to the cabin so the internal door helped reduced the noise levels alot. Train designers have moved on from this.

The V-sets were originally designed with booked designated seating in mind, hence their seat numbering, I'm not sure if it was every used, but it certainly wasn't come 1982. The concept design of the V-set was from an different era with different technology and despite still being one of my favorite trains, its days are numbered and the design is no longer fit for purpose.

As far as I understand NIF have sensors that prevent opening if there is no platform at short stations, so you won't get loss of AC.

As I said for all other stations and this should apply Sydney wide, doors should be passenger activated with a button like ALL QR trains and after X many seconds of no passenger movements automatically closes. This solves the whole AC issue and prevents the need for an internal door. The problem how do you bring a new train with this concept to the Sydney masses now? NIF not an issue has a smaller audience that can be quickly trained, once the NIF is in a settled you can apply to future stock to Sydney and potentially retrofit older stock as QR have managed.  

This is an area for once QR are 40 years ahead of Sydney, that and AC trains.
  Airvan99 Junior Train Controller

The main reason for fixed seating is the current impact requirements, its extremely difficult (expensive) to design a seat that can protect its occupant if it also has to flip over. Flip over seats is a Sydney thing, you don’t see flip over seats on modern European trains ( where the crash requirements can be stricter)
  viaprojects Train Controller

The main reason for fixed seating is the current impact requirements, its extremely difficult (expensive) to design a seat that can protect its occupant if it also has to flip over. Flip over seats is a Sydney thing, you don’t see flip over seats on modern European trains ( where the crash requirements can be stricter)
Airvan99


depending on the country and the service the seats are rotated to the travel direction ... they have cleaning staff doing the job at the end of the line ..  here in Sydney we don't have the staff doing the job or long wait times ..just a better option the government decide to remove for something else....
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

RTT the reason why the button doesn't work in Sydney is because of vandals, dwell times and passengers.

Vandalism - Cityrail tried it on the Tangara's and Oscars and the levers / buttons were constantly damaged by heavy handed passengers and crooks.

Dwell Time - Sydney's trains as you mentioned generally don't stop at platforms for that long and we generally have people getting on and off at most stations at all doors and so it is a useless technology in the Sydney system since most doors need to opened any way. The buttons just increased the dwell time as passengers stood blankly at a non opening door.

Passengers - Sydney passengers are so used to having a guard open the door that they just simply don't react when the door doesn't open. Passenger behaviour is lets say unique to Sydney and is clearly seen in the issues the new metro has had.

I also have been on a number of v sets with those intermediate doors have been broken and the AC is not that good in the v sets. The new AC should overcome any of the issues that people complain about when it comes to these new trains.
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
In Oscars, the guards never seem to choose the option for passengers to press the button and open doors themselves. Even at quiet stations, guards open all the doors for no apparent reason.
  crazybenjamin Beginner

What I'm wondering is, how will the NIFs handle quiet carriages? Would have been a lot easier if they had built them as 5 car sets, instead of 4's and 6's.
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
A brand new animation inside the new trains came out for over a week ago. It is most likely the final concept for the train.

They are focusing on accessibility on these new trains. There is also USB and Normal Power Point Chargers, super up to date information screens, bike racks, and is basically a early 2020's version of the Oscar.

Have a look for yourself here and tell us how you think of it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHQJNR6t3No&t=4s
  M636C Minister for Railways

The main reason for fixed seating is the current impact requirements, its extremely difficult (expensive) to design a seat that can protect its occupant if it also has to flip over. Flip over seats is a Sydney thing, you don’t see flip over seats on modern European trains ( where the crash requirements can be stricter)
Airvan99
Presumably Waratah seats meet the present impact requirements and the same seats are in the next order of Waratahs, ordered after the Intercity cars.

It should be possible to design a similar seat for the Intercity cars, or just fir the existing Waratah double seat...

Peter
  Matthew Train Controller

The main reason for fixed seating is the current impact requirements, its extremely difficult (expensive) to design a seat that can protect its occupant if it also has to flip over. Flip over seats is a Sydney thing, you don’t see flip over seats on modern European trains ( where the crash requirements can be stricter)
Presumably Waratah seats meet the present impact requirements and the same seats are in the next order of Waratahs, ordered after the Intercity cars.

It should be possible to design a similar seat for the Intercity cars, or just fir the existing Waratah double seat...

Peter
M636C
It's cheaper to design a  fixed seat to meet 'impact requirements'. They can also increase the seat pitch marginally with fixed direction seats, so they probably got an extra row in. (Then lost it again due to luggage racks Smile


Obviously government policy is now fixed direction seats on 'Intercity' and no seats (Metro) on Urban.

It's a secret health policy to get us to stand more instead of being slouching couch potatoes Smile

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