New Sydney Intercity Trains

 
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

This is not Europe.

We are used to being seated in the direction of travel.

Maybe Qantas, Jet star and Virgin should seat pax backwards as well. This penny pinching 'feature' on the new trains is a false economy. Taxpayers will be footing the bill.

Also, I can't see 10 car sets being widely used and guards will have their jobs taken by the drivers, who obviously have too much time on their hands.

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

It's cheaper to design a  fixed seat to meet 'impact requirements'. They can also increase the seat pitch marginally with fixed direction seats, so they probably got an extra row in. (Then lost it again due to luggage racks Smile


Obviously government policy is now fixed direction seats on 'Intercity' and no seats (Metro) on Urban.

It's a secret health policy to get us to stand more instead of being slouching couch potatoes Smile
Matthew

That secret health policy is probably not a bad idea!!!!!!
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

This is not Europe.

We are used to being seated in the direction of travel.

Maybe Qantas, Jet star and Virgin should seat pax backwards as well. This penny pinching 'feature' on the new trains is a false economy. Taxpayers will be footing the bill.

Also, I can't see 10 car sets being widely used and guards will have their jobs taken by the drivers, who obviously have too much time on their hands.
ANR

Comparing a jet plane which travels in one direction most of the time to a train that operates in multiple directions is not really applicable. Having said that I would also prefer the reversible seating but as someone who actually does sit backwards in a train frequently I don't have as much of an issue with the one way seating.

The 10 car sets will be widely used especially in the peak hour where they will most definitely be needed. Guards are most definetly going to be needs as there are many train stations that don't have staff in intercity areas.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

This is not Europe.

We are used to being seated in the direction of travel.

Maybe Qantas, Jet star and Virgin should seat pax backwards as well. This penny pinching 'feature' on the new trains is a false economy. Taxpayers will be footing the bill.

Also, I can't see 10 car sets being widely used and guards will have their jobs taken by the drivers, who obviously have too much time on their hands.

Comparing a jet plane which travels in one direction most of the time to a train that operates in multiple directions is not really applicable. Having said that I would also prefer the reversible seating but as someone who actually does sit backwards in a train frequently I don't have as much of an issue with the one way seating.

The 10 car sets will be widely used especially in the peak hour where they will most definitely be needed. Guards are most definetly going to be needs as there are many train stations that don't have staff in intercity areas.
simstrain
They are called Customer Service Guards and after a time the government will claim they are not needed and they will be gone. That is the plan. There is no role for platform staff to give ROW either. That is the plan. Get rid of staff. And to think workers in Penrith for instance voted for the LNP in the state and Federal elections. Fools. Sorry, they are no longer workers, they are aspirationals. Next to go will be the guards on Waratahs.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
This is not Europe.

We are used to being seated in the direction of travel.

Maybe Qantas, Jet star and Virgin should seat pax backwards as well. This penny pinching 'feature' on the new trains is a false economy. Taxpayers will be footing the bill.

Also, I can't see 10 car sets being widely used and guards will have their jobs taken by the drivers, who obviously have too much time on their hands.

Comparing a jet plane which travels in one direction most of the time to a train that operates in multiple directions is not really applicable. Having said that I would also prefer the reversible seating but as someone who actually does sit backwards in a train frequently I don't have as much of an issue with the one way seating.

The 10 car sets will be widely used especially in the peak hour where they will most definitely be needed. Guards are most definetly going to be needs as there are many train stations that don't have staff in intercity areas.
They are called Customer Service Guards and after a time the government will claim they are not needed and they will be gone. That is the plan. There is no role for platform staff to give ROW either. That is the plan. Get rid of staff. And to think workers in Penrith for instance voted for the LNP in the state and Federal elections. Fools. Sorry, they are no longer workers, they are aspirationals. Next to go will be the guards on Waratahs.
nswtrains
The comment, "we are not EU", seriously. look around your own country! The only state with commuter services with flip over seating is Sydney. The LR doesn't have it, some seats on buses don't face forward and now all seats on the trains actually face forward.

Comparing with planes is ridiculous and irrelevant and yes I've flown on planes and sat in seats with backwards facing seats, probably Qantas and survived un-injured, happens every day. BC on some airlines now now face at an angle.

Flip over seating is expensive to design and limits the options you can offer in the seats and generally unnecessary.

The new trains will come, and like Y2k and GST, life will go on and no one will notice any different or care!


Two crew trains is 20th century technology and a drain on the taxpayer. Remove the waste, reduce the cost of running PT and allow the savings to be directed towards faster growth and more jobs in PT. Need to stop applying 19th century technology to 21st century problems.
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

Ummm, 2 crew on a 10 car train is a must, especially on platforms with curves. Also, there have been too many pax safety incidents on interurban services for there not to be a guard. Will these new trains have a bell? Will they have a guard? Why not remove the driver while we are at it?
  M636C Minister for Railways

The comment, "we are not EU", seriously. look around your own country! The only state with commuter services with flip over seating is Sydney. The LR doesn't have it, some seats on buses don't face forward and now all seats on the trains actually face forward.

…...

Flip over seating is expensive to design and limits the options you can offer in the seats and generally unnecessary.

The new trains will come, and like Y2k and GST, life will go on and no one will notice any different or care!

Were you here for the introduction of the Tangaras?
Those comments were made at that time.
The last batch of Tangaras were modified to have reversible seats.
Do you think that the result will be different around thirty years later after all the trains in the meantime had reversible seats.

No that's not quite true...
The Endeavours were the first regional trains with fixed seats.
I'm pleased I photographed the interiors.
They were rebuilt with reversible seats at the first major overhaul.

People have said "Sydney passengers will learn to love fixed seats"....
They've been wrong every time since about 1890 when their first try to replace reversible seats failed...

Peter
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The comment, "we are not EU", seriously. look around your own country! The only state with commuter services with flip over seating is Sydney. The LR doesn't have it, some seats on buses don't face forward and now all seats on the trains actually face forward.

…...

Flip over seating is expensive to design and limits the options you can offer in the seats and generally unnecessary.

The new trains will come, and like Y2k and GST, life will go on and no one will notice any different or care!

Were you here for the introduction of the Tangaras?
Those comments were made at that time.
The last batch of Tangaras were modified to have reversible seats.
Do you think that the result will be different around thirty years later after all the trains in the meantime had reversible seats.

No that's not quite true...
The Endeavours were the first regional trains with fixed seats.
I'm pleased I photographed the interiors.
They were rebuilt with reversible seats at the first major overhaul.

People have said "Sydney passengers will learn to love fixed seats"....
They've been wrong every time since about 1890 when their first try to replace reversible seats failed...

Peter
M636C
Where was I, Sydney catching trains at the time.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Ummm, 2 crew on a 10 car train is a must, especially on platforms with curves. Also, there have been too many pax safety incidents on interurban services for there not to be a guard. Will these new trains have a bell? Will they have a guard? Why not remove the driver while we are at it?
ANR
As a former Inter urban commuter on Central Coast I'm fully aware of the issues on the corridor and that other things also need to change and that running something like a V-set or U-set without a guard isn't going to work.

Need to think outside box and current mostly outdated technology.

As for the driver, the question should be why are we talking about this now, cars are hitting the road with self driving functionality, surely a train is far less complex.

Do I support zero manned trains on the IU corridors, no! The question is what is the role of the person that is on board and if its operating doors and pressing bells, then we have lost the plot.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Does anyone know the motor(M)-trailer(T) configuration these trains will use?, with 4 carriage sets it's easy with MTTM or TMMT (doubling that to make an 8 carraige set), but we have never seen a 6 carriage set in modern times, will it be TMTTMT (can't see much power in that one) or TMMMMT (too much power) or TMTMTM?
What did the old R-Sets and 6 carriage C-Sets use?


Anyway, regarding reversible seating,
I have travelled backwards and even sideways between Newcastle and Sydney with no ill effect, I personally won't be majorly affected by the fixed seating, just inconvenienced, but that's me, I know it can make others feel motion sickness.

What confuses me is the product inconsistency we will have: reversible seating on the latest short-haul suburban trains (B-Sets) and fixed seating on the latest long-haul intercity trains (D-Sets).

Two crew trains is 20th century technology and a drain on the taxpayer. Remove the waste, reduce the cost of running PT and allow the savings to be directed towards faster growth and more jobs in PT. Need to stop applying 19th century technology to 21st century problems.
RTT_Rules
*more jobs in PT", I'm sorry, but what jobs?, I hear it all the time, 'automation creates new jobs', but reality is that automation does not create enough jobs to make up for the one's it took away, especially in Australia where if someone loses their job to a piece of technology, it's most likely that piece of technology was imported from overseas.

Just look at the Sydney Metro, it's a driverless, gaurdless train imported from India, where is the Australian job growth created from this automation that we hear so much about?

And one can't say "but we have the lowest unemployment" because the statistics are misleading as students, the underemployed (working as little as 1 hour a week), and those who have given up on looking for work don't count towards the documented unemployed rate.
Reality is that there are around 7 job seekers for every entry level job.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Does anyone know the motor(M)-trailer(T) configuration these trains will use?, with 4 carriage sets it's easy with MTTM or TMMT (doubling that to make an 8 carraige set), but we have never seen a 6 carriage set in modern times, will it be TMTTMT (can't see much power in that one) or TMMMMT (too much power) or TMTMTM?
What did the old R-Sets and 6 carriage C-Sets use?


Anyway, regarding reversible seating,
I have travelled backwards and even sideways between Newcastle and Sydney with no ill effect, I personally won't be majorly affected by the fixed seating, just inconvenienced, but that's me, I know it can make others feel motion sickness.

What confuses me is the product inconsistency we will have: reversible seating on the latest short-haul suburban trains (B-Sets) and fixed seating on the latest long-haul intercity trains (D-Sets).

Two crew trains is 20th century technology and a drain on the taxpayer. Remove the waste, reduce the cost of running PT and allow the savings to be directed towards faster growth and more jobs in PT. Need to stop applying 19th century technology to 21st century problems.
*more jobs in PT", I'm sorry, but what jobs?, I hear it all the time, 'automation creates new jobs', but reality is that automation does not create enough jobs to make up for the one's it took away, especially in Australia where if someone loses their job to a piece of technology, it's most likely that piece of technology was imported from overseas.

Just look at the Sydney Metro, it's a driverless, gaurdless train imported from India, where is the Australian job growth created from this automation that we hear so much about?

And one can't say "but we have the lowest unemployment" because the statistics are misleading as students, the underemployed (working as little as 1 hour a week), and those who have given up on looking for work don't count towards the documented unemployed rate.
Reality is that there are around 7 job seekers for every entry level job.
Ethan1395
6 car sets in NSW used to be TMMT-MT. It was rare to find TMT - TMT, I think there was one, R,C or S and it was often talked about here as the "Rocket" so something like that.

The 10 car sets U or V that used to get split at Gosford were usually TMMT -TMMTMT or mirror image.


If you believe technology - Automation doesn't sustain or create jobs then explain what the 94% of adults gainfully looking for work or in work are doing.

The same mantra was waffled on about women in the work place, they would take men's jobs and who would feed their families? Also same applied to minority groups and even immigrants. Yet 230 years later, Australia is still one of the wealthiest countries in the world per capita, one of the highest incomes and #2 highest disposable income with women taking 47% of all full time jobs.

Regarding your comments on Sydney Metro, please tell us all how many jobs FTE jobs are employed by the Metro, or do you think the trains move on their own, clean and maintain themselves as well? Also noting the trains do have one CSO on board. I supposed you would oppose any railway being built as it replaced the bus drivers and maintainers. What about all that car maintenance jobs?

Also interesting that some of the Australian export technology is actually automation.

The stats used for unemployed as been same or similar for years. You think the stats used elsewhere are much different? and only a minority of jobs are actually advertised.

Ethan, we have been down this path before, your mindset on automation is stuck in a very narrow view point. If you were correct we'd have about 5% of the work force in a job and/or be operating like India where you don't put an e-toll in as the toll collectors loose their job etc etc, hell by the sounds of if you had your way we'd still be riding horses with steam engines, sorry steam engines killed the horse and mull industry. Why are you using a online forum, have you thought about all the jobs lost from the magazine industry.

May I ask what car do you drive, phone company, insurance company etc do you use?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Two crew trains is 20th century technology and a drain on the taxpayer. Remove the waste, reduce the cost of running PT and allow the savings to be directed towards faster growth and more jobs in PT. Need to stop applying 19th century technology to 21st century problems.
RTT_Rules

It is actually less of a drain on the tax payer because when the train guard becomes unemployed he then has to go on to the dole. At least a train guard will pay tax and buy goods and services which go back in to the tax pot. The unemployed worker on the dole does not do any of this but drain the economy.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Regarding your comments on Sydney Metro, please tell us all how many jobs FTE jobs are employed by the Metro, or do you think the trains move on their own, clean and maintain themselves as well? Also noting the trains do have one CSO on board. I supposed you would oppose any railway being built as it replaced the bus drivers and maintainers. What about all that car maintenance jobs?

Also interesting that some of the Australian export technology is actually automation.

The stats used for unemployed as been same or similar for years. You think the stats used elsewhere are much different? and only a minority of jobs are actually advertised.


Ethan, we have been down this path before, your mindset on automation is stuck in a very narrow view point. If you were correct we'd have about 5% of the work force in a job and/or be operating like India where you don't put an e-toll in as the toll collectors loose their job etc etc, hell by the sounds of if you had your way we'd still be riding horses with steam engines, sorry steam engines killed the horse and mull industry. Why are you using a online forum, have you thought about all the jobs lost from the magazine industry.

May I ask what car do you drive, phone company, insurance company etc do you use?
RTT_Rules

And how many more jobs would there be with the Metro if there were drivers and gaurds employed? how many more jobs would there be if the trains were built in Australia? certainly a lot more than now, the maintenance and operations jobs would still exist with the addition of the crew and construction jobs.
Where are these apparent new jobs created by automation? there might be a few, but does it make up for the jobs lost? absolutely not!

The unemployment statistics are misleading because they don't count students, they don't count the underemployed (working as little as 1 hour a week), and they don't count those (such as the homeless) who have just given up looking.
People are quick to say "NSW has the lowest unemployment", but that's because the statistics make it look so.

Things like trains, cars, and online forums are technological progress and improve customer service and quality of life, trains without gaurds or drivers do not improve customer service or quality of life, it's just staff cuts for the sake of the bottom line.

My previous car was a 2000 Toyota Corolla insured with Coles Insurance and I own an iPhone 6 with Vodafone.

Two crew trains is 20th century technology and a drain on the taxpayer. Remove the waste, reduce the cost of running PT and allow the savings to be directed towards faster growth and more jobs in PT. Need to stop applying 19th century technology to 21st century problems.
It is actually less of a drain on the tax payer because when the train guard becomes unemployed he then has to go on to the dole. At least a train guard will pay tax and buy goods and services which go back in to the tax pot. The unemployed worker on the dole does not do any of this but drain the economy.
simstrain
Exactly! and that's what people don't get, a job lost is another on Newstart.
It's even more disgusting to think that Scott Morrison can overlook these job losses and let continue to punish the unemployed with the low rate of Newstart and the Cashless Welfare Card.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Perhaps some displaced guards could be retrained to attend, repair and maintain those USB and 240v outlets on board.
Surely bogans and similar will see these as appropriate receptacles for all manner of refuse, and just outright vandalism. Lots of new jobs.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

As for flipping seats, outdated and unnecessary, 50% face forward and 50% face back in any one time. Cheaper, easier and you get a much better seat with potential for table power etc and seating density as a result.


When I've travelled on V sets or Oscars for that matter, passengers will select forward facing seats, and will usually reverse rearward facing seats unless there is a group of four travelling together. If people are so happy to face the rear. why don't they use those seats already facing the rear?

Seat density on the D sets can't be a big worry since there is one less row on both decks to allow a lower angle on the stairways.

The rotating and reclining seats in the XPT and Explorer have tables, and it wouldn't be difficult to design a non reclining version, and USB power could be fitted to reversible seats like those in the V sets which have fixed arm rests as well as to rotating seats.

I certainly haven't found fixed seats to be more comfortable than reversible seats in general. Certainly that was an argument for the Tangara seats, but the seats on later suburban cars are more comfortable as well as being reversible.

Peter
M636C

XPT seats are not rotatable during a journey and so they are not comparable to reversible v set and Oscar seats. They are also extremely heavy seats compared to what is being aimed for in this case. The only comfortable seat that is reversible is the seat in the G set Tangara as far as I am concerned and they also are quite heavy.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner


XPT seats are not rotable during a journey and so they are not comparable to reversible v set and Oscar seats. They are also extremely heavy seats compared to what is being aimed for in this case. The only comfortable seat that is reversible is the seat in the G set Tangara as far as I am concerned.
simstrai
Do you realise that when the XPTs' entered service they had fixed seating, the public opinion was so negative, that as cars were refurbished, they were fitted with rotating seats?

When you say that they are not rotatable (well I think that is what you are trying, and failing,  to spell)  during a journey, again you are wrong. The seats are latched in position and released by a foot pedal, this is not connected to an accelerometer so there is nothing to prevent the seat being swivelled.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I know they can be rotated animal. It ain't happening during a trip because if I recall correctly (and I am sure I remember seeing a video about this) it requires all the seats to be rotated on one side in tandem because of the way the xpt seat rotates. I am trying to find this video but maybe someone else has the link.
  M636C Minister for Railways

XPT seats are not rotatable during a journey

I would be very surprised if that were the case..
Exactly what prevents the seat reversing if the train is moving?

The seats are usually reversed at the end of the trip.
Reversing a seat in the middle of a row limits the ability of the back to back seats to recline but apart from that there should be no problem.

I have personally reversed seats in moving Daylight Express cars with both B and D type seats.

Of course, many people may not remember that XPTs were introduced with fixed seating, but the public response was so unfavourable that the second order of cars had reversible seats.


The  Tangara G type seats are good but have too little leg room.
On balance I find the Oscar seats to be better.

Peter
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Literallt just a foot pedal under the seat that unlocks it and allows the seat to pivot.
If you are travelling as a group, you can ask the on board staff and they will spin the chair arouns for you, in service, so you cab face each other
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

Here we are discussing how technically and financially difficult it is to do something we have done without thought for decades which is to have directional seating, yet it is no problem having guardless or even driverless trains.

Directional seating is a no brainer. They got it WRONG on this purchase (the whole idea of this Oscar rehash is a train wreck for intercity commuters), and it was a false economy that will cost the taxpayers in the long run. These things should be kept on suburban rails after the T sets are done.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Ok to bring some reality back to the thread

- QR have a long established history regardless of the train technology used of turning the whole train and continue to this day. QR have a history of turning almost any train, cattle, coal, grain, cement etc to avoid shunting and/or running B-end first trains where possible.

- XPT has directional seating which can only be rotated by the crew and only done at end of the trip. I'm not sure if they provide face to face seating on request. NSW avoided the QR approach by buying double cab locos, later XPT and turntable seated.

In Australia today and most of the world, nearly every suburban and interurban train system operated with fixed seating. In QR land that's 3h to Gympie North.

- rear seating is common elsewhere, I've caught TGV for 3.5h facing backwards.

- I've even flown backwards a few times as a number of smaller aircraft have rear facing seats in front row.

- At night, in a crowded train, do you even know which direction you are really going? or more importantly, actually care? I never did.

- Do people prefer to face forward? well given half a chance, some do yes they do, you can see in Brisbane as trains empty some people move to face forward, but from my previous obs, most could not be bothered.

Will Sydney survive with rear facing seating yes? why?

- The doom and gloomers (also in this thread) predicted the end of the world with the Metro with its lateral facing seating and reduced seating. Yet the Metro thread is rarely updated. There has been no major outcry in the media. The govt is proceeding to building the City/SW Metro the same and Western Metro. The outcry's of the past are very much in the past.

- So will the IU users be walking the streets and complaining about rear facing seats, no. Most will continue to be asleep, in the phones or likely enjoying the benefits of seat tables etc.


Regarding Automation
- Again the Metro, remember the hoo har in the media and in RP about safety, blah blah blah, mostly driven by the union or similar with obvious vested interest (you cannot blame them for this). Today we hear, crickets? Further roll out of the Metro continues, opposition to Metro is based on how it fits within the network, not if it has a driver or guard.  Should the ALP return to power, nothing will change.

- Rio Tinto is now running driverless iron ore trains

- How long was the strike in NSW to remove the guards on freight trains? How long was the strike to remove the 2nd driver in the XPT?
Despite these crimes against humanity the govt and commonsense won out and life continued as normal.

- To take it a step further, QR, Tasrail and others have been running single crew freight trains for decades. If this was attempted in NSW today, would we see the mass strikes of the past? Unlikely.

- We now have people buzzing around town in their cars with their hands off he steering wheel at various times and Zurich and others using driverless buses on public streets if it works in the road environment we all know in the rail controlled environment, rail automation is a piece of pi$$. Hell if my car will brake for me when I'm not paying attention, what's possible on rail? Oh wait, we hear about LX or people invading the ROW corridor, committing suicide etc. The same thing will happen with automation as with manual driven, the people on the tracks will most likely DIE! Jump in front of a B-double and see how far you get.

So back to the automation of the NSW IU trains,
- Yes 1 crew operation is possible, its up to the will of the govt to make it happen.
- 1 crew does not equal a driver or a guard will be removed, but for now it would appear guard is most likely, personally I think it should be the driver although not now. Like it or not this job is on the verge of being redundant with guard actually off his/her phone between stations supervising the train and its contents.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Hi.

- How long was the strike in NSW to remove the guards on freight trains? How long was the strike to remove the 2nd driver in the XPT?
Despite these crimes against humanity the govt and commonsense won out and life continued as normal.

Your multi tasking skills are outstanding. Typing this whist self pleasuring.

What ever your occupation is, another employee will present, with twice your knowledge, half your age and will work for half your pay (your probably over paid anyhow) and you'll be tossed out on your arrogant smeg.

Have a nice day, Mick.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Hi.

- How long was the strike in NSW to remove the guards on freight trains? How long was the strike to remove the 2nd driver in the XPT?
Despite these crimes against humanity the govt and commonsense won out and life continued as normal.

Your multi tasking skills are outstanding. Typing this whist self pleasuring.

What ever your occupation is, another employee will present, with twice your knowledge, half your age and will work for half your pay (your probably over paid anyhow) and you'll be tossed out on your arrogant smeg.

Have a nice day, Mick.
michaelgm
Yes Mic its sarcasm. I was very much part of the trains strikes of the 80's, I forgot the strike to prevent drivers from being RBT. So three strikes in a few short years all of which were to achieve???

As for your comments about my job. You have no idea what I do or situation so your personal attack is pointless. What I will say is my employers lack of automation is why its struggling financially, paying people to do jobs that our competitors don't and something we are trying to correct. Are we planning to lay people off, no, not at all unless they are not willing to adapt to doing what humans do best and let machines do the repetitive work. I would have thought the Sydney Metro was an example of this but obviously lost on you.

Regards
Shane
  Colonel Leon Junior Train Controller

Location:
What is the goal of public transport?
To deliver a safe and efficient service for the customer

It isn't meant to be as comfortable as the car.
When people are going to be upset about a train not having reversible seats, no one is going to hold their hand.

With automation, you are going to get no where if you don't embrase technology.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Shane, a bit over the top, my apologies.
Mick.

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