Wampu tenders

 
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

M636C,

there is one flaw in your argument about the shot being taken in the 1940's.

Tony Eyre, who took the photograph, did not become too interested in railways until about 1955.  He took this photograph, and has kept notes on every picture that he took.  The RTM may have given the wrong location, but it is not likely that the date is wrong.

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  M636C Minister for Railways

M636C,

there is one flaw in your argument about the shot being taken in the 1940's.

Tony Eyre, who took the photograph, did not become too interested in railways until about 1955.  He took this photograph, and has kept notes on every picture that he took.  The RTM may have given the wrong location, but it is not likely that the date is wrong.
"Spinner5711"


Except that I was around in 1962 and was photographing steam locomotives myself. I never saw a 55 in normal service with that type of tender. I think that it is likely that the photo has been miscaptioned, and the date is as likely to be as wrong as the location. It need not be one of Tony Eyre's photos. A6ET's comments about the tenders independently support this possibility. If someone has some way of identifying the date and exact location (Rozelle being a possibility) I'd like to know.

M636C
  Spinner5711 Train Controller


This tender was used for two tour workings in the mid 1960's: with 5593 circa 1965 and with 5597 circa 1966.

Today, 5595 is coupled to Commonwealth Turret Tender TAB 1634.  5595 had a Commonwealth tender for its last few years of service.

So to return to the thread, what is the likely date of the photo of 5595 at Darling Island at the link posted above?

It is unlikely to be 1962 since 5595 would be expected to have one of the German Talbot tenders (assembled by Comeng) by that time.

It could be during the period of tour operation, with the tender used with 5593 and 5597, but this is less likely since by that time, the LHG vans would have been being withdrawn and replaced by GHG vans.

There is nothing I can see in the photo that would definitely date it after the late 1940s. So it could be of 5595 before the general fitting of the large turret tenders.

M636C
M636C
It's a long time between drinks for this one...

The picture of 5595 was taken by Tony Eyre and he didn't start photography until just before the 58's finished,so the date can be taken as reliable.  LHG vans were still in goods train working at that time.  Wampu Tenders were still in normal revenue service in 1962, albeit in tiny numbers.  Perhaps as low as two, this one and that coupled to 5460.
  M636C Minister for Railways


This tender was used for two tour workings in the mid 1960's: with 5593 circa 1965 and with 5597 circa 1966.

Today, 5595 is coupled to Commonwealth Turret Tender TAB 1634.  5595 had a Commonwealth tender for its last few years of service.

So to return to the thread, what is the likely date of the photo of 5595 at Darling Island at the link posted above?

It is unlikely to be 1962 since 5595 would be expected to have one of the German Talbot tenders (assembled by Comeng) by that time.

It could be during the period of tour operation, with the tender used with 5593 and 5597, but this is less likely since by that time, the LHG vans would have been being withdrawn and replaced by GHG vans.

There is nothing I can see in the photo that would definitely date it after the late 1940s. So it could be of 5595 before the general fitting of the large turret tenders.




M636C

It's a long time between drinks for this one...The picture of 5595 was taken by Tony Eyre and he didn't start photography until just before the 58's finished,so the date can be taken as reliable.  LHG vans were still in goods train working at that time.  Wampu Tenders were still in normal revenue service in 1962, albeit in tiny numbers.  Perhaps as low as two, this one and that coupled to 5460.
spinner5711

Sadly, the original photo is no longer accessible through the link.

I would still be very surprised if the date was correct. The tender could have been fitted for a short period when the turret tender required repair. But the only Wampu tender I recall seeing was on an oil burning 55 stored at Enfield, and that is unlikely to have been suitable.

M636C
  Spinner5711 Train Controller

In going back through some records, I've founds further details about the Wampu Tender in question.

We know that it is Tab Number 1415.

Removed from 5405 during 1962.

Fitted to 5593 for tour working on 18/10/1963.
Removed from 5593 on 21/10/1953.

Fitted to 5593 for tour working during February 1964.

Fitted to 5595 for tour working during 1965.

Fitted to 5597 for tour working during April 1965, 04/04/1965 RTM Triple Header Tour.

Fitted to 5597 for tour working during October 1966, 21/10/1966 RTM Illawarra line tour.

Fitted to 5595 for museum display purposes during 1968.

Fitted to 5461 during March 1990, prior to move to Valley Heights.


From other pictures, it appears that 5595 did have a different Wampu Tender in 1962 and 1963, perhaps up to its last overhaul before it went to Cowra to replace 5597.

Look on this page for 5595.  http://nswrailrambler.blogspot.com/2014/01/illawarra-goods-by-steam.html

look on this page for coupled 55s, light engine, with Wampu and Commonwealth Tenders.  http://nswrailrambler.blogspot.com/2015/07/more-from-norff-gong.html
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
October 1966 Kiama tour, 5597 with wampu tender. There are more photos adjacent to this one.
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/24120525


Mid 1965 Hornsby loco 5597 with wampu tender for working North Shore goods.
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/24230521
  a6et Minister for Railways

October 1966 Kiama tour, 5597 with wampu tender. There are more photos adjacent to this one.
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/24120525


Mid 1965 Hornsby loco 5597 with wampu tender for working North Shore goods.
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/24230521
GrahamH
Graham, I was the fireman on the return leg of the Kiama tour, the driver being Charlie Morris, when the train got back to the Gong it had to be turned and ran tender first to Thirroul where it was once again turned to run engine first back to Central terminal.

We were relieved at Central owing to the length of our shift, my understanding is that the engine being still in steam was rostered for the Sunday night Local Trip to Hornsby, and to work the Shore pick up.  When it finally got back to Enfield from the working, and it could well have been early in the week, as the day time Hornsby train, 205 was usually used to swap the engines around at Hornsby.

The wampu tender was removed from 97 during that week and replaced with its Turret tender. A good look at the photo's will show me at the only photo run on the return trip. Also take note of how much coal was in the tender on the TT at Thirroul, by the time we got through Otford, Charlie was swinging the Firehole door for me owing to the amount of reach back into the tender to get to the coal, IIRC we also pulled into the Up yard at Waterfall to take water, and both of us shovelled coal forward there, when time was up, Charlie did what most drivers did and that was to let the train run down the grades as fast as possible, with the roughness of the ride with the Wampu tender it shook more coal down so going up to Hurstville was not that bad.

Photo's show one aspect of how things worked in the steam days, but reveal not as many would like to think.

If I can find the photo, I was given a colour photo of that Photo stop, and its very clear, anyone who knows me would readily recognise me as the fireman.
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

My recollection is that when I first started taking photos in 1960 Wampu tenders were still in use but were rare. Somewhere I have a photo of the morning goods from Thirroul? to Moss Vale with double 55 class one of which has a Wampu tender. (This train was a regular runner and was always double standard goods engines, often 55 class, and banked by a third standard goods). By 1965 the use of Wampu tenders had ceased in regular working, the withdrawal of many standard goods engines releasing turret tenders as replacements. Wampu tenders were still parked up in depots around the state, many still with the oil tanks.
I lived at Chatswood and saw the North Shore Goods often. It was usually a 53 class, and 55 class were pretty rare, probably because their numbers were very small at that time. 59 class were also occasionally used towards the end before the diesels took over.
Some times there were two trains a night, the second one returning north in the morning peak hour much to the delight of this train enthusiast.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
I should have given this link. All the Kiama tour photos.
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/album/466815?with=24120517


OT for a moment.
Sorry I never spoke to the crew that day... I'd like to see that photo. Should I thank you for the smokey photorun?

Do you remember the reason for 5597 being turned at Kiama ie why couldn't the tender first running be done Kiama to W'gong or even Thirroul?
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
snip

I lived at Chatswood and saw the North Shore Goods often. It was usually a 53 class, and 55 class were pretty rare, probably because their numbers were very small at that time. 59 class were also occasionally used towards the end before the diesels took over.
Some times there were two trains a night, the second one returning north in the morning peak hour much to the delight of this train enthusiast.
neillfarmer
I remember seeing 5597, 5617, 5620 and 560 something in loco at Hornsby. The nights with 2 runs were when there was a lot of steel going to Stewart and Lloyds at St Leonards. The first train was all steel with the second with any more steel and the loads to other businesses. I was told this by crews I 'helped' with lighting up on Sunday afternoons and can also remember seeing a load of steel assembled in the yard.
  a6et Minister for Railways

My recollection is that when I first started taking photos in 1960 Wampu tenders were still in use but were rare. Somewhere I have a photo of the morning goods from Thirroul? to Moss Vale with double 55 class one of which has a Wampu tender. (This train was a regular runner and was always double standard goods engines, often 55 class, and banked by a third standard goods). By 1965 the use of Wampu tenders had ceased in regular working, the withdrawal of many standard goods engines releasing turret tenders as replacements. Wampu tenders were still parked up in depots around the state, many still with the oil tanks.
I lived at Chatswood and saw the North Shore Goods often. It was usually a 53 class, and 55 class were pretty rare, probably because their numbers were very small at that time. 59 class were also occasionally used towards the end before the diesels took over.
Some times there were two trains a night, the second one returning north in the morning peak hour much to the delight of this train enthusiast.
neillfarmer
Neil

IIRC there was one of the Cowra katies that had a Wampu for sometime, and you would be right with the date though. I had heard of one the Cowra engines having a Wampu but never saw the second one, as 95 was the only one left and only got some shed shots at Harden of it, along with 3292 on the Booroowa mixed, 3267 outside the shed and 5364 inside.

I came home via Bathurst, & got a photo of a basically empty shed, only a 26cl in steam and 3668, there was a row of Wampu's not far from the station, I have lost the scanned image and have to redo them all now as many scans seem to be missing.

When I started at Enfield and out on the road, I worked on the following katies 93, 95, 97 5608, 10, 19 and 20,  they were all withdrawn fairly close to each other, from my perspective as a fireman they had the advantage of not needing to go underneath to oil them but for me I found them noisier and rougher riding.

I do also have photo's of 5612 arriving at Hornsby on 205gds around midday.

The last K's tended to work the West Ryde evening pick up, also one of the Botany goods, and to Rozelle and one of the Clyde services, I struck one on 69 west to Penrith once.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I should have given this link. All the Kiama tour photos.
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/album/466815?with=24120517


OT for a moment.
Sorry I never spoke to the crew that day... I'd like to see that photo. Should I thank you for the smokey photorun?

Do you remember the reason for 5597 being turned at Kiama ie why couldn't the tender first running be done Kiama to W'gong or even Thirroul?
GrahamH
The running Tender first means steam loco's have very much a restricted speed.  The tour ran engine first to Kiama and was turned there for engine first running to the gong.  The reason for it to be turned at Wollongong was that the tour was advertised in the way of replicating the old commuter passenger train workings on the line from the Gong to Thirroul and those that ran to Coal Cliff.  

The general working of those commuter trains was that the up service was worked tender first and the down service engine first.  IRRC, tender first running was restricted to 15mph whereas a K could run at 30/35mph depending on track conditions.  If you think on that, to run tender first to Wollongong would have taken quite a while longer than the working from the Gong to Thirroul, besides the TT at Kiama was very heavily used in Steam days as all the terminating trains trains all turned their engines.

I personally would not have liked to have worked it tender first from Kiama, it was enough from the Gong to Thiroul, with the only stop being the single photo stop, it allowed us to hose the coal down as it was filthy work running TF on steam especially with open tenders like the 3650 & Wampu's  The turret tenders at least gave you some protection against coal dust.
  a6et Minister for Railways

My recollection is that when I first started taking photos in 1960 Wampu tenders were still in use but were rare. Somewhere I have a photo of the morning goods from Thirroul? to Moss Vale with double 55 class one of which has a Wampu tender. (This train was a regular runner and was always double standard goods engines, often 55 class, and banked by a third standard goods). By 1965 the use of Wampu tenders had ceased in regular working, the withdrawal of many standard goods engines releasing turret tenders as replacements. Wampu tenders were still parked up in depots around the state, many still with the oil tanks.
I lived at Chatswood and saw the North Shore Goods often. It was usually a 53 class, and 55 class were pretty rare, probably because their numbers were very small at that time. 59 class were also occasionally used towards the end before the diesels took over.
Some times there were two trains a night, the second one returning north in the morning peak hour much to the delight of this train enthusiast.
neillfarmer
Neil

As I mentioned elsewhere, there was usually one freighter at Hornsby, the Sunday evening train when running had the job to fill the lineside water tanks to Cowan and Return. IRRC the train number was 207, the other day time working was 205. Both trains would/could pick up at Nth Strathfield and Gonoroo on the down, the night time trips down the shore were interesting, there was a coal unloader that backed onto Mona Vale road IIRC, cow of a place to shunt, there was one other location on the up shore as well, I tend to believe it was at Chatswood then to St Leonards which kept you going with a lot of shunting there, two sidings on the Down shore and another on the up.

What was brought back from St Leonards included the wagons off the up that were picked up, all the wagons were then stowed at Hornsby in the Down Yard, unless and this was rare a load was sent to Enfield.  Hornsby itself had a lot of shunting during the daylight hours where the engine would ensure everything was in place for the picking up by down train, usually IIRC it was 633 that picked up at Nth Strathfield and Hornsby, if a garratt was on it, which was more common than thought, we took water at the station, then picked up there to build the load up to 680tons.

The engine that went up to Hornsby and did the shore would change every day with the work down the shore, as well as working to/from Hornsby and perform the yard shunting at Hornsby meant the engine would need to be changed owing to low coal being left in the tender.  I would doubt that a wampum tendered engine when a lot of work on the shore was carried out, would be able to do a 24 hour shift, although depending on the amount of work on the shore and yard, a 3650 gall tendered engine would be ultra tight.  What generally happened and prevented any issues was the day working of 205 that took loading to Hornsby and the Enfield crew working that would change over with the engine that had been there since the previous evening and worked loading/empties back to Enfield.

For a while 7201 was tested on the shore, as my driver at the time was gualified for the rotter, later it was replaced by a 48cl and we would continue to Enfield through the underground rather than going back to Hornsby at a point 73classes took over, and performed the same role, meaning no down goods worked the shore.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Neil

As I mentioned elsewhere, there was usually one freighter at Hornsby, the Sunday evening train when running had the job to fill the lineside water tanks to Cowan and Return. IRRC the train number was 207, the other day time working was 205. Both trains would/could pick up at Nth Strathfield and Gonoroo on the down, the night time trips down the shore were interesting, there was a coal unloader that backed onto Mona Vale road IIRC, cow of a place to shunt, there was one other location on the up shore as well, I tend to believe it was at Chatswood then to St Leonards which kept you going with a lot of shunting there, two sidings on the Down shore and another on the up.

What was brought back from St Leonards included the wagons off the up that were picked up, all the wagons were then stowed at Hornsby in the Down Yard, unless and this was rare a load was sent to Enfield.  Hornsby itself had a lot of shunting during the daylight hours where the engine would ensure everything was in place for the picking up by down train, usually IIRC it was 633 that picked up at Nth Strathfield and Hornsby, if a garratt was on it, which was more common than thought, we took water at the station, then picked up there to build the load up to 680tons.

The engine that went up to Hornsby and did the shore would change every day with the work down the shore, as well as working to/from Hornsby and perform the yard shunting at Hornsby meant the engine would need to be changed owing to low coal being left in the tender.  I would doubt that a wampum tendered engine when a lot of work on the shore was carried out, would be able to do a 24 hour shift, although depending on the amount of work on the shore and yard, a 3650 gall tendered engine would be ultra tight.  What generally happened and prevented any issues was the day working of 205 that took loading to Hornsby and the Enfield crew working that would change over with the engine that had been there since the previous evening and worked loading/empties back to Enfield.

For a while 7201 was tested on the shore, as my driver at the time was gualified for the rotter, later it was replaced by a 48cl and we would continue to Enfield through the underground rather than going back to Hornsby at a point 73classes took over, and performed the same role, meaning no down goods worked the shore.
a6et
As a young kid going shopping with Mum at Hornsby by train from Wahroonga I saw a std goods, which I had presumed was the Shore one as there was nothing in loco, two times on - guards van, bogie gin, guards van; and one other time with two gins. Two of the times they stood in the Down yard and once it was steaming away onto the Down under the Bridge St bridge. This would have been ~10ish AM on a weekday. I much later guessed they were filling lineside tanks, thanks for the confirmation.  

My recollection is that the sidings at Mona Vale Rd were gravel which was used by a road making business. I passed this many times en route to Chatswood or the city as a primary school aged kid. There was a siding/loop on the western side of the line (no overhead) at Gordon where I recall the was occasionally one S truck or similar. The deadend ran to a major substation looking building in the City direction from the station. Chatswood always had some wagons, no idea of the freight though. There was a hand operated crane in the yard.

I never saw the 72 or any 73s but do have a photo of a 48 on the Shore goods in the Down yard on a Sunday afternoon and a 44 heading North through Warrawee one Saturday morning. These would have been in mid 1966 to mid 1967.


http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/24207613/in/album/468883

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/24207637/in/album/468883
  a6et Minister for Railways

Neil

As I mentioned elsewhere, there was usually one freighter at Hornsby, the Sunday evening train when running had the job to fill the lineside water tanks to Cowan and Return. IRRC the train number was 207, the other day time working was 205. Both trains would/could pick up at Nth Strathfield and Gonoroo on the down, the night time trips down the shore were interesting, there was a coal unloader that backed onto Mona Vale road IIRC, cow of a place to shunt, there was one other location on the up shore as well, I tend to believe it was at Chatswood then to St Leonards which kept you going with a lot of shunting there, two sidings on the Down shore and another on the up.

What was brought back from St Leonards included the wagons off the up that were picked up, all the wagons were then stowed at Hornsby in the Down Yard, unless and this was rare a load was sent to Enfield.  Hornsby itself had a lot of shunting during the daylight hours where the engine would ensure everything was in place for the picking up by down train, usually IIRC it was 633 that picked up at Nth Strathfield and Hornsby, if a garratt was on it, which was more common than thought, we took water at the station, then picked up there to build the load up to 680tons.

The engine that went up to Hornsby and did the shore would change every day with the work down the shore, as well as working to/from Hornsby and perform the yard shunting at Hornsby meant the engine would need to be changed owing to low coal being left in the tender.  I would doubt that a wampum tendered engine when a lot of work on the shore was carried out, would be able to do a 24 hour shift, although depending on the amount of work on the shore and yard, a 3650 gall tendered engine would be ultra tight.  What generally happened and prevented any issues was the day working of 205 that took loading to Hornsby and the Enfield crew working that would change over with the engine that had been there since the previous evening and worked loading/empties back to Enfield.

For a while 7201 was tested on the shore, as my driver at the time was gualified for the rotter, later it was replaced by a 48cl and we would continue to Enfield through the underground rather than going back to Hornsby at a point 73classes took over, and performed the same role, meaning no down goods worked the shore.
As a young kid going shopping with Mum at Hornsby by train from Wahroonga I saw a std goods, which I had presumed was the Shore one as there was nothing in loco, two times on - guards van, bogie gin, guards van; and one other time with two gins. Two of the times they stood in the Down yard and once it was steaming away onto the Down under the Bridge St bridge. This would have been ~10ish AM on a weekday. I much later guessed they were filling lineside tanks, thanks for the confirmation.  

My recollection is that the sidings at Mona Vale Rd were gravel which was used by a road making business. I passed this many times en route to Chatswood or the city as a primary school aged kid. There was a siding/loop on the western side of the line (no overhead) at Gordon where I recall the was occasionally one S truck or similar. The deadend ran to a major substation looking building in the City direction from the station. Chatswood always had some wagons, no idea of the freight though. There was a hand operated crane in the yard.

I never saw the 72 or any 73s but do have a photo of a 48 on the Shore goods in the Down yard on a Sunday afternoon and a 44 heading North through Warrawee one Saturday morning. These would have been in mid 1966 to mid 1967.


http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/24207613/in/album/468883

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/24207637/in/album/468883
GrahamH
I finished at Enfield end of 69, returned there in Feb 71, from memory the shore was finished as such by then, could be wrong though, but I know I did not work on the shore until I was appointed Driver at Central ETR in 76, I do recollect that the sidings were pretty well gone by then. At the time of my working when the sidings were in operation was the 60's period, and the two sidings at Mona Vale Road and thanks for identifying the other one as being at Gordon, I can only recollect shunting one of the sidings once, & I never worked steam down the line as it was worked by Hornsby steam crew with the occasional Enfield crew in order to keep the drivers who were qualified for that line conversant and qualified to work over it, had to do it at least once every 6 months.

With the introduction of the Mk4 48, steam finished on the shore and other lines, 7201 was tested on several workings when it came out, initially on the shore and other similar short workings, it also was put on Botany testings, but found its place on #2 Balmain Coal unloading siding where it pretty much kept going until being withdrawn.

When back at Enfield (Delec) I was a relief Chargeman at Delec in the Zona area, involved with engine rosters, primarily the small engines, including 48, 73, and by that time X200 class that worked to Botany & return to Clyde daily, the work included getting relief crews out to various trains and arranging for the Illawarra trains and crewings, along with the loco's on that work.

At that time there was 73 classes working a fair number of trip trains and shunting jobs, that is where I got the aspect of the 73 on the shore.  What I found when coming back to Sydney at Delec was how much change there had been since I had left in just a short 15 months, although we still had steam through to the north, where I worked as a fireman on several through garratt hauled trains at night, also on one trip with 6038 on its last trip from BMD to Enfield on a load, I also was the fireman on 5917 that worked the last 59cl hauled goods train from Enfield to BMD.

The 70's for me and my last area of working and changes in the 80's was a time I can never forget but with those changes I saw the gradual destruction of a great system, and will leave it at that.

As I mentioned, there was, I will check the WTT though its likely to new for any rostered lineside water tank fillings to have still been on in the 70's, but the Cowan return trip was usually done on alternate Mondays, and with the Hornsby steam crews, I believe at the time there were two sets of men there.  There was a good amount of shunting done there especially the down yard. Much of the work and wagons were taken to Hornsby by the two trip trains also by some other trains as well. Two of the down sidings were used to hold extra loads for the North, as the loads were 80tons lighter between West Ryde and Hornsby, it was a good way to get fully loaded trains all the way by non priority trains picking up 80 tons at Hornsby, to go through to BMD, heavy garratts could take 605 Tons to Hornsby but 680 North of Hornsby, Light types 575 & 650 respectively.

When the shore services were becoming very scarce, Hornsby steam depot was closed and the crews went into the ETR section.
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

The main loading on the shore goods was steel to and from Stewarts & Loyds at St Leonards. There was also a meat packers, both on the down side. There was a goods shed and crane on the up side. Chatswood had a small yard on the down side and the siding continued over the Help St bridge forming a loop so it was a convenient place to refuge goods trains heading up to Hornsby. Because of the steel loading some of the trains could be quite heavy and I remember lying in bed late at night, around a kilometre from the railway, listening to the goods struggle up the rising grades from Chatswood through Lindfield and further on. I had my first diesel cab ride on this train, a 44 class. I moved away to Ingham Qld to begin another life in 1970 and steam on the Shore Goods had finished by then. I returned each Christmas for holidays but as you say, the 70s were very different from the 60s.

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