3801 Boiler and it's return to operation

 
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
It might look alright in Indian red, but I reckon it would look even better in candy. Laughing

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  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
From comparing footage from yesterday's run, film of it in operation in the early 2000s and a steam train passes I can conclude that the whistle is much deeper than it was in the footage from the 2000s and sounds more like the whislte from a steam train passes
In other words, this technically is a real 38 class whistle and the one it used in the 80s/90s/2000s was not due to boiler pressure differences
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks BW.
Sounds great, climbing towards Maldon.
Edit, cowling/sheet metal work looks particularly tidy. Top stuff.

Suppose a colour scheme has already been decided upon, just looking at a clean 4490, what would a 38 look like in Indian red and yellow whiskers? Laughing
Also be nice if they can get a 38class whistle for it.

Sounds like one to me. What were you expecting?
TheFish
its a 36cl whistle.

here is a 38cl whistle in the first clip.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHQmEu5LGIU&feature=youtu.be
  a6et Minister for Railways

From comparing footage from yesterday's run, film of it in operation in the early 2000s and a steam train passes I can conclude that the whistle is much deeper than it was in the footage from the 2000s and sounds more like the whislte from a steam train passes
In other words, this technically is a real 38 class whistle and the one it used in the 80s/90s/2000s was not due to boiler pressure differences
DCook
Over the years an number of 38cl I worked on, there were variations in the whistles, but in general they each had close chimes, wear and tear affected some and if anyone heard the squark whistle that was on 02 & 14 during the mid 60's today they would fall off their seats.  I have older tape recordings of 3801 working 65 goods from Orange to Dubbo in 1964 where the whistle valve got stuck and continually blew on and off, totally different to the sound we hear today.

The initial blow where its activated by the air sounds ok but the primary sound is from a 36cl whistle.  If it is a 38cl whistle then the chimes have been impeded or reworked during overhaul, a similar situation with another locomotive that requires a full head of steam for it to sound as it should owing to an issue with the whistles chamber.

I did my 38cl trials on 09 back in 1964, every time the whistle was blown using the side air valve rather than the chord, the initial sound was classic 5 chime, but when the control valve was released, a secondary sound was evident in the trail off.
  studdo Locomotive Fireman

On whistles, 3820 sounded like the whistles in the video posted by a6et but the current whistle on '01 sounds like what I remember from the sound on the 1943 recording featured in A Steam Train Passes. Personally, I like the sound of '30's whistle. There is an excellent post about whistles on youtube by Bevan Wall where he shows how much sounds can vary even though the whistles are all of the same basic design except the 59 cl. I'm probably wrong but I thought the garratt whistles were different too.
  studdo Locomotive Fireman

On whistles, 3820 sounded like the whistles in the video posted by a6et but the current whistle on '01 sounds like what I remember from the sound on the 1943 recording featured in A Steam Train Passes. Personally, I like the sound of '30's whistle. There is an excellent post about whistles on youtube by Bevan Wall where he shows how much sounds can vary even though the whistles are all of the same basic design except the 59 cl. I'm probably wrong but I thought the garratt whistles were different too.
  The_trolley Deputy Commissioner

Location: .
Has a6et figures out yet that the NSW had one standard five chime design and that it only varied in the material used to construct the bell? “36, 38, 60 class whistle”. They’re all fundamentally the same.

It sounds better now than it has since the 1980s. Quit crapping on.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Has a6et figures out yet that the NSW had one standard five chime design and that it only varied in the material used to construct the bell? “36, 38, 60 class whistle”. They’re all fundamentally the same.

It sounds better now than it has since the 1980s. Quit crapping on.
The_trolley
Yes there are primarily 3 types of 5 chime whistles, each have their own distinct sounds, the 36cl sound not much different to the standard whistles found on standard goods, and others it was deemed a country whistle owing to the loudness of it compared to older whistles. Also the 35cl had the same basic country whistle.

The 38cl chime is very much like that Southern Railways 5 chime whistles used primarily on their passenger loco's likewise their variant in their 3 chime southern steamboat whistle as found on the 59cl also the NYC 4-6-4 passenger fleet.

The 38cl 5chime is of brass casting and the same as fitted to the 57 & 58cl, there is a variance here though as they both had the air control on both sides of the cab but the firemans side one had the valve turned off owing to the amount of water that accumulated in the control valves, when both were on, and the driver or the fireman used the whistle cab side valve it would blow the water out on the other side, and it was usually dirty. Drivers always made sure the firemans side was turned off and usually removed the tap handle, meaning the fireman had to use the whistle chord which also made for a variation in the actual chime sound.

The 60 class/garratt had a 5 chime brass casting whistle made by Beyer Peacock, they had a very distinct variation to the other 5 chime whistle used on the NSWGR.  If anyone would watch the Various Video's from the Belbin collection especially those with garratt's in them you will get a very good example of the variations in the BP whistles, a close look at them shows they are more stubb like than those used on the 38cl and others.

Another video to have a look at is the pacing video by Bevan wall of 3801 & 30 ascending from Farmborough Heights to Dombarton where there are several spots where both engines use their whistles, and both are different, but they are of the type used on 38cl and not 36cl
  a6et Minister for Railways

Has a6et figures out yet that the NSW had one standard five chime design and that it only varied in the material used to construct the bell? “36, 38, 60 class whistle”. They’re all fundamentally the same.

It sounds better now than it has since the 1980s. Quit crapping on.
The_trolley
I would rather be a bit crapping on as you put it, then putting up with real crap that should not be happening.
  a6et Minister for Railways

On whistles, 3820 sounded like the whistles in the video posted by a6et but the current whistle on '01 sounds like what I remember from the sound on the 1943 recording featured in A Steam Train Passes. Personally, I like the sound of '30's whistle. There is an excellent post about whistles on youtube by Bevan Wall where he shows how much sounds can vary even though the whistles are all of the same basic design except the 59 cl. I'm probably wrong but I thought the garratt whistles were different too.
studdo
The Steam train passes is not a 1943 film rather it is a film based on a memory of trains that ran during the war years and virtually a memorial type film at that. The crew on 3801 on that trip was two drivers from Eveliegh, Harold Fowler, along with Chris O'Sullivan, both were involved with the lighting up of the engine at Enfield along with driving/fireing through to Orange, various clips show it near Parramatta Park, under the wires when they did not exist in the war years at that location, also at Blayney, where the station clip is taken from the waiting room. With one of the final scenes taken at Polona loop where the staff exchange is taken.

I forget the full reason for its filming and it had a good motive as a memorial type of film.  The railways played a huge part in serving the military in WW2 and other conflicts.

All whistle wear, moreso the chime chambers, and they can sound different over time but they can also be retuned, depending on condition.
  studdo Locomotive Fireman

The film I was referring to was a 1943 newsreel that preceded A Steam Train Passes - it might have been on an ABC video (which was a compilation of various steam vision on TV and cinema) I got years ago. I'm pretty sure the other driver was Chris O'Sullivan, a driver very highly thought of as a driver from I've been told.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The film I was referring to was a 1943 newsreel that preceded A Steam Train Passes - it might have been on an ABC video (which was a compilation of various steam vision on TV and cinema) I got years ago. I'm pretty sure the other driver was Chris O'Sullivan, a driver very highly thought of as a driver from I've been told.
studdo
Hi Studdo, Apologies for getting the films in wrong order, now that you mention the newsreel that was in B&W if I remember correctly was a pretty good short film or more a news reel than anything. Seem to recollect it being played in some of the movie theatres when I was young, in late/early 50's/60's.  The one with Harold Fowler and Chris O'Sullivan in it is a bit of a nostalgia trip and actually seems to have replaced the original one in records and searches for it.

Chris was a strange fellow at times but overall a fair sort of a man and not a bad driver.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uFJs-xoTMM

"Monarch of the Rails" is at the beginning, dated 1943 but since it talks about NSW Railway Workshops building 38 class locos, where 3801 wasn't built, I wonder if it was made somewhat later.
  studdo Locomotive Fireman

I haven't seen Monarch of the Rails for many years but my memory of it is that it showed 3801 about to be joined to its tender and heralds its entry into service, all of which suggests it was made in early 1943. It did say it was made at the railway workshops but you don't believe everything you read in the papers do you? Cinesound would only have repeated what it was told by the NSWGR, so maybe it was an example of the tension between Clyde and the Mechanical Branch that has been discussed in other threads, a bit of getting back at Clyde (just speculating).
  studdo Locomotive Fireman

Just watched 5910's video - glad my memory hasn't completely failed (although it's getting close).
  C3818 Beginner

The whistle on 38's probably like most others is quite simple. A disc sits on a shaft in a cylinder with a narrow gap between the disc and the internal bore of the cylinder. Steam comes in one side and passes through the gap between the disc and cylinder and then exhausts into 5 different sized chambers, which gives it the 5 chimes. When we pulled 3801's whistle apart we found that after a 60+ years of use, the disc had worn a groove into the shaft and so rather than an equal gap around the outside it had a large gap on one side and none on the other. So rather than a 5 chimes whistle we probably had a 3-4 chime whistle. We therefore built up the shaft so that the whistle now has an even gap around the disc, hence the different sound. Now it is a genuine 38-class 5 chime whistle. It is certainly loud and distinctive!
  dm211060 Station Staff

The whistle on 38's probably like most others is quite simple. A disc sits on a shaft in a cylinder with a narrow gap between the disc and the internal bore of the cylinder. Steam comes in one side and passes through the gap between the disc and cylinder and then exhausts into 5 different sized chambers, which gives it the 5 chimes. When we pulled 3801's whistle apart we found that after a 60+ years of use, the disc had worn a groove into the shaft and so rather than an equal gap around the outside it had a large gap on one side and none on the other. So rather than a 5 chimes whistle we probably had a 3-4 chime whistle. We therefore built up the shaft so that the whistle now has an even gap around the disc, hence the different sound. Now it is a genuine 38-class 5 chime whistle. It is certainly loud and distinctive!
C3818
Sounded to me very like 3825's whistle recorded at night at Yass Junction on side two of the NSWRTM's 1970s EP of 38s - side one of which was 3813 on its last run north from the Parramatta River and up Denistone bank in 1973. Does anyone know if there is a digital version of that? My vinyl EP is long lost sadly
  Shed_Rat2 Station Staff

As far as the whistle is concerned there are only 3 NSWGR drawings of 5 chime whistles.

The first is 21933 dating from 23/06/1922 is the original design of the 5 chime whistle, with the body being made from cast iron.

The second is 46641 dating from 10/10/1940 & is dimensionly the same as 21933 other than the material being gunmetal. This is the whistle called up on the C38 drawings. The only difference from this drawing for the C38-D58 whistles is that they were fitted with a air operated steam valve in place of the standard cord operated valve.

The third being the AD60 whistle to drawing 77077, this is just a Beyer Peacock copy of NSWGR drawing 46641, dimensions & material being the same as the NSWGR drawing.
  ssaunders Train Controller

Weather permitting, Wed on the loop line and Fri to Moss Vale.
  a6et Minister for Railways

As far as the whistle is concerned there are only 3 NSWGR drawings of 5 chime whistles.

The first is 21933 dating from 23/06/1922 is the original design of the 5 chime whistle, with the body being made from cast iron.

The second is 46641 dating from 10/10/1940 & is dimensionly the same as 21933 other than the material being gunmetal. This is the whistle called up on the C38 drawings. The only difference from this drawing for the C38-D58 whistles is that they were fitted with a air operated steam valve in place of the standard cord operated valve.

The third being the AD60 whistle to drawing 77077, this is just a Beyer Peacock copy of NSWGR drawing 46641, dimensions & material being the same as the NSWGR drawing.
Shed_Rat2
There were no air operating valves on the firemans side of the 38cl there was a standard whistle chord provided in them and that's what the fireman used.

From big engine drivers I worked with, they mentioned that the 57c also had the whistle chords in the cab and the valve on the firemans side was closed off by the isolating cock, owing to the build up of water in the line, if the valves were open and whoever used it, the other crew member copped a spray of dirty water from the valve. As they were not removed, the firemans side valve was turned off, I understand the 58c were the same.
  Shed_Rat2 Station Staff

As far as the whistle is concerned there are only 3 NSWGR drawings of 5 chime whistles.

The first is 21933 dating from 23/06/1922 is the original design of the 5 chime whistle, with the body being made from cast iron.

The second is 46641 dating from 10/10/1940 & is dimensionly the same as 21933 other than the material being gunmetal. This is the whistle called up on the C38 drawings. The only difference from this drawing for the C38-D58 whistles is that they were fitted with a air operated steam valve in place of the standard cord operated valve.

The third being the AD60 whistle to drawing 77077, this is just a Beyer Peacock copy of NSWGR drawing 46641, dimensions & material being the same as the NSWGR drawing.
There were no air operating valves on the firemans side of the 38cl there was a standard whistle chord provided in them and that's what the fireman used.

From big engine drivers I worked with, they mentioned that the 57c also had the whistle chords in the cab and the valve on the firemans side was closed off by the isolating cock, owing to the build up of water in the line, if the valves were open and whoever used it, the other crew member copped a spray of dirty water from the valve. As they were not removed, the firemans side valve was turned off, I understand the 58c were the same.
a6et
The fireman's side cord still worked a air valve. The Steam valve on the whistle was operated by a air driven piston supplied via the cab air valve/s.
  a6et Minister for Railways

As far as the whistle is concerned there are only 3 NSWGR drawings of 5 chime whistles.

The first is 21933 dating from 23/06/1922 is the original design of the 5 chime whistle, with the body being made from cast iron.

The second is 46641 dating from 10/10/1940 & is dimensionly the same as 21933 other than the material being gunmetal. This is the whistle called up on the C38 drawings. The only difference from this drawing for the C38-D58 whistles is that they were fitted with a air operated steam valve in place of the standard cord operated valve.

The third being the AD60 whistle to drawing 77077, this is just a Beyer Peacock copy of NSWGR drawing 46641, dimensions & material being the same as the NSWGR drawing.
There were no air operating valves on the firemans side of the 38cl there was a standard whistle chord provided in them and that's what the fireman used.

From big engine drivers I worked with, they mentioned that the 57c also had the whistle chords in the cab and the valve on the firemans side was closed off by the isolating cock, owing to the build up of water in the line, if the valves were open and whoever used it, the other crew member copped a spray of dirty water from the valve. As they were not removed, the firemans side valve was turned off, I understand the 58c were the same.
The fireman's side cord still worked a air valve. The Steam valve on the whistle was operated by a air driven piston supplied via the cab air valve/s.
Shed_Rat2
Never said otherwise, thing is though on each of the 38's I worked on, there was a difference in the initial sound in the blast, likewise on several of them there was a tale off that was totally different.
  DCook Train Controller

Location: The standard state
An example of the trail off is found at the start of this video by what appears to be 3825


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHQmEu5LGIU
  sydneyshortnorth Train Controller

Location: On the 1 in 40.
An old legend that may or may not be true - it used to be said that the glorious chime pipes on the British LNER''s A4 Pacifics were all tuned slightly differently for each locomotive. Because they could - what fun!!

Steve
  a6et Minister for Railways

An example of the trail off is found at the start of this video by what appears to be 3825
DCook
Trail off, is at the end of a blast not at the start, its a slow release of the steam, something that is akin what is called playing the whistle, which is not possible with air operated whistles such as on the 38's.

One of the lineside favourites by many is the cocka doodle do, does not work on air controlled whistles, as you can control the amount of steam going into the whistle by how far you open/pull the whistle cord, you can also make the whistle sound like a wheezing noise by just holding the cord down enough to only allow a small amount of steam pressure into the whistle.

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