Future of Overland train service in doubt

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 25 Nov 2019 19:16
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The Overland probably has a future.  A great initiative by Scomo:
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/scott-morrison-announces-national-passenger-rail-proposal-for-australia

Note that Melbourne - Mildura is also included.
Carnot
On closer reading I'm thinking it's an April Fools joke.

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  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
The Overland probably has a future.  A great initiative by Scomo:
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/scott-morrison-announces-national-passenger-rail-proposal-for-australia

Note that Melbourne - Mildura is also included.
Carnot
You old snake in the grass Carnot,I was shaking my head in disbelief at this Damascus moment by McWhatis name and Sooty, then the penny dropped.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The Overland probably has a future.  A great initiative by Scomo:
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/scott-morrison-announces-national-passenger-rail-proposal-for-australia

Note that Melbourne - Mildura is also included.
Carnot
WOW - the Overland saved AND a new train to Mildura! It's a dreamy foamy gunzel's most amazing fantasy come true.

If only.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
On closer reading I'm thinking it's an April Fools joke.
"Carnot"
It has April 1st written all over it.

Still the best one has to be the report, sent from Australia in the late 80's and published in the UK, that 4472 Flying Scotsman had been converted to broad gauge whilst here. The report was accompanied by a photo of 4472 beside one or two ( forget how many) R class locos at Dynon.

Howls of outrage went up all over the Old Dart. It was a roaring success.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

There's a good one in Newsrail too of a freshly painted A66 and Eucalyptus-oil fueled D3...
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
There's a good one in Newsrail too of a freshly painted A66 and Eucalyptus-oil fueled D3...
Carnot
Wow, a eucalyptus oil-fired steam locomotive would probably smell really pleasant as it went by!
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
The Overland probably has a future.  A great initiative by Scomo:
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/scott-morrison-announces-national-passenger-rail-proposal-for-australia

Note that Melbourne - Mildura is also included.
On closer reading I'm thinking it's an April Fools joke.
Carnot
When asked why Whyalla South Australia was included Mr. McCormack suggested South Australia could not be trusted to properly fund and run a rail passenger service over 15kms in length.

That's a bit rude Shocked

Peter Soot from the Carbon Reduction Coalition

Come on now ..Razz

BigShunter.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There's a good one in Newsrail too of a freshly painted A66 and Eucalyptus-oil fueled D3...
Carnot

  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
The Overland probably has a future.  A great initiative by Scomo:
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/scott-morrison-announces-national-passenger-rail-proposal-for-australia

Note that Melbourne - Mildura is also included.
On closer reading I'm thinking it's an April Fools joke.
When asked why Whyalla South Australia was included Mr. McCormack suggested South Australia could not be trusted to properly fund and run a rail passenger service over 15kms in length.

That's a bit rude Shocked

Peter Soot from the Carbon Reduction Coalition

Come on now ..Razz

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Then again 'Shunter, a couple of years ago a Federal Minister said he wouldn't trust the Australian Submarine Corp or whatever it's called, to build a canoe.
  Goose13 Station Master

Location: Having a sook about Southern cross's western wall
The Overland probably has a future.  A great initiative by Scomo:
https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/scott-morrison-announces-national-passenger-rail-proposal-for-australia

Note that Melbourne - Mildura is also included.
Carnot
Ahaha, Had almost forgotten, there's my first for the day.
  Upven Locomotive Driver

Some people don't seem to get that any government isn't a bottomless pit of money that can be spent forever on everything for everyone; they have financial LIMITS. At the moment governments at all levels in this country are borrowing like crazy - it's going to have an impact in the future because they won't be able to create money as easily. They have to sell bonds or print money - one of the two. The State governments can't even print money - they have to borrow it by bonds or commercial borrowing.

Dan Andrews has been spending like the proverbial sailor - now looking at $4,000,000,000 over-runs on Melbourne Metro and a similar amount on the Westgate Tunnel due to the shock discovery of contaminated soil (who could have known in the most heavily polluted part of Melbourne...). That'll probably push my aforementioned bolded figure to well over $100,000,000,000. That money has to come from future programs, future tax revenues (that they don't have yet), future dividends from state enterprises (that they no longer have) or by cutting programs and services in order to try and slow the debt accumulation.

But some people sincerely think that all this money is FREE and that nobody will ever have to pay it back - ever.
It doesn't matter long-term. Unless you assume the economy will never grow again.
You mean like Japan, Italy, et al?

Interest rates will have to skyrocket so they can sell their bonds, how do you think that will affect mortgage markets?
don_dunstan
So yes, you do assume the economy will never grow again, hence your panic and flurry at the sight of debt. The Overland's small cost is nothing in the scheme of things. Much cheaper than buying new rolling stock, hiring staff, new signage that would come with a V/Line takeover.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
There's a good one in Newsrail too of a freshly painted A66 and Eucalyptus-oil fueled D3...
Carnot
She looks pretty good too! Laughing
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
There's a good one in Newsrail too of a freshly painted A66 and Eucalyptus-oil fueled D3...
She looks pretty good too! Laughing
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Can the pending excavations of Mount Newport be far away?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
So yes, you do assume the economy will never grow again, hence your panic and flurry at the sight of debt.
Upven
You mean like Japan and various other northern European nations? It's entirely possible. Our growth was fueled by record-breaking mass-migration - not sustainable in any sense.
The Overland's small cost is nothing in the scheme of things. Much cheaper than buying new rolling stock, hiring staff, new signage that would come with a V/Line takeover.
Upven
Have you caught the Overland in the last few years? Or are you like all the other cheer-leaders here and want it to remain despite the fact that you'd never use it yourself...

I'm guessing the latter.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Have you caught the Overland in the last few years? Or are you like all the other cheer-leaders here and want it to remain despite the fact that you'd never use it yourself...

I'm guessing the latter.
don_dunstan


Making assumptions and generalisations about Railpage posters use of a good or service is unnecessary and doesn't intelligently add to your argument.

Guess what Question

Railpagers make up a tiny percentage of pax on the Overland and if it were only Railpage posters that used it, no doubt it would have been cancelled years ago.

Whether someone is a 'cheer-leader' or not has no bearing whatsoever on the hundreds of non-railpagers who utilise the train, COVID-19 notwithstanding.

Mike.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The Overland's small cost is nothing in the scheme of things. Much cheaper than buying new rolling stock, hiring staff, new signage that would come with a V/Line takeover.
Upven
Take care of the millions and the billions will take care of themselves.

As for the costs of a VLine service...
Rolling stock: Why buy new? There are Xplorer cars that will be retired from NSW service soon that could be acquired by offering $1 more than scrap price, use them on an interim basis until the eventual Geelong electrification releases VLocity sets to be fitted with standard gauge bogies.
Staff: this is something that Victoria already pays for as part of the package with Journey Beyond, but they should be able to cut down the number on board if they handle it in house. One driver, one customer facing attendant and a vending machine for catering should be fine.
Signage: If we assume a 6 car Xplorer fleet (4 in traffic plus 2 spares) then we need 12 VLine signs (one each side) which comes to $2023.08, hardly the end of the world.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Have you caught the Overland in the last few years? Or are you like all the other cheer-leaders here and want it to remain despite the fact that you'd never use it yourself...

I'm guessing the latter.


Making assumptions and generalisations about Railpage posters use of a good or service is unnecessary and doesn't intelligently add to your argument.

Guess what Question

Railpagers make up a tiny percentage of pax on the Overland and if it were only Railpage posters that used it, no doubt it would have been cancelled years ago.

Whether someone is a 'cheer-leader' or not has no bearing whatsoever on the hundreds of non-railpagers who utilise the train, COVID-19 notwithstanding.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Yeah but the problem is that nobody else is using it either.

"Hundreds of non-Railpagers" - a snip at only (what is it?) $1.5 million p/a. But that's alright, Chairman Dan has very deep pockets and can keep paying indefinitely.

Right?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The Overland's small cost is nothing in the scheme of things. Much cheaper than buying new rolling stock, hiring staff, new signage that would come with a V/Line takeover.
Take care of the millions and the billions will take care of themselves.

As for the costs of a VLine service...
Rolling stock: Why buy new? There are Xplorer cars that will be retired from NSW service soon that could be acquired by offering $1 more than scrap price, use them on an interim basis until the eventual Geelong electrification releases VLocity sets to be fitted with standard gauge bogies.
Staff: this is something that Victoria already pays for as part of the package with Journey Beyond, but they should be able to cut down the number on board if they handle it in house. One driver, one customer facing attendant and a vending machine for catering should be fine.
Signage: If we assume a 6 car Xplorer fleet (4 in traffic plus 2 spares) then we need 12 VLine signs (one each side) which comes to $2023.08, hardly the end of the world.
justapassenger
The Xplorers are 30 plus years old now - are they reliable? Agree that second-hand NSW railcars based on the same platform as Vlocity could be an answer though.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The Overland's small cost is nothing in the scheme of things. Much cheaper than buying new rolling stock, hiring staff, new signage that would come with a V/Line takeover.
Take care of the millions and the billions will take care of themselves.

As for the costs of a VLine service...
Rolling stock: Why buy new? There are Xplorer cars that will be retired from NSW service soon that could be acquired by offering $1 more than scrap price, use them on an interim basis until the eventual Geelong electrification releases VLocity sets to be fitted with standard gauge bogies.
Staff: this is something that Victoria already pays for as part of the package with Journey Beyond, but they should be able to cut down the number on board if they handle it in house. One driver, one customer facing attendant and a vending machine for catering should be fine.
Signage: If we assume a 6 car Xplorer fleet (4 in traffic plus 2 spares) then we need 12 VLine signs (one each side) which comes to $2023.08, hardly the end of the world.
The Xplorers are 30 plus years old now - are they reliable? Agree that second-hand NSW railcars based on the same platform as Vlocity could be an answer though.
don_dunstan
Wikipedia says they first entered service in late 1993 so they are still short of 30 years.

They had a mid-life refurbishment in 2007-08. Give them a bit of an overhaul before entering VLine service and they would be more than capable of serving as an interim option for a few years.

Alternately, if he really wants to buy new Dan could whip out the credit card and make a follow-on order for more of the CAF Civity bi-mode multiple units being ordered by NSW.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The Overland's small cost is nothing in the scheme of things. Much cheaper than buying new rolling stock, hiring staff, new signage that would come with a V/Line takeover.
Take care of the millions and the billions will take care of themselves.

As for the costs of a VLine service...
Rolling stock: Why buy new? There are Xplorer cars that will be retired from NSW service soon that could be acquired by offering $1 more than scrap price, use them on an interim basis until the eventual Geelong electrification releases VLocity sets to be fitted with standard gauge bogies.
Staff: this is something that Victoria already pays for as part of the package with Journey Beyond, but they should be able to cut down the number on board if they handle it in house. One driver, one customer facing attendant and a vending machine for catering should be fine.
Signage: If we assume a 6 car Xplorer fleet (4 in traffic plus 2 spares) then we need 12 VLine signs (one each side) which comes to $2023.08, hardly the end of the world.
The Xplorers are 30 plus years old now - are they reliable? Agree that second-hand NSW railcars based on the same platform as Vlocity could be an answer though.
Wikipedia says they first entered service in late 1993 so they are still short of 30 years.

They had a mid-life refurbishment in 2007-08. Give them a bit of an overhaul before entering VLine service and they would be more than capable of serving as an interim option for a few years.

Alternately, if he really wants to buy new Dan could whip out the credit card and make a follow-on order for more of the CAF Civity bi-mode multiple units being ordered by NSW.
justapassenger
Chairman Dan's credit card is already thinner than Sorbent... I'd imagine that the Commonwealth would have to step in if there was going to be a brand new train. And their credit card is even thinner...
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Chairman Dan's credit card is already thinner than Sorbent... I'd imagine that the Commonwealth would have to step in if there was going to be a brand new train. And their credit card is even thinner...
don_dunstan

Of course both governments could have done little or nothing towards fighting the COVID-19 pandemic, or in the case of other countries...waited too long to offer a limp response because they/we are concerned about budget surpluses and no recession.

Guess what...common sense prevailed and now hundreds of thousands of workers that have been laid off in recent weeks now have some kind of income through the crisis and businesses have a sense of continuity and potentially hundreds of thousands of Australians who may well have succumbed, will be here for a bit longer..

Its not ALL about economics.

Mike.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
The bottom line is:  Is there a need (now or in the future) for an interstate rail service (NOT a "tourist train") between Melbourne and Adelaide?  Forget about the limitations of the present "service";  assume that any such service would not be slow, clapped out or antiquated, but would operate with modern rolling stock, with more than two services per week, and to a high standard of performance and efficiency.  If the answer to that question is still "no", then the Overland should be discontinued immediately.  If the answer is "yes", it should continue in its present form until a better solution is found (a matter of priority), and the SA Govt. should bear some of the cost.

One of the biggest factors in leading to the Overland's demise was the change from an overnight service to daytime.  Of course, that was done for cost-cutting reasons, but it destroyed the ability to travel overnight and wake up the next morning in the other city, ready for a day's work or whatever.  In that situation it didn't really matter if the train was a bit slow, so long as it arrived in the other city at a reasonable time.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
...

Its not ALL about economics.

Mike.
The Vinelander
When you're talking about spending millions of dollars sustaining a train for a handful of tourists then, yes, it is all about economics.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

...

Its not ALL about economics.

Mike.
When you're talking about spending millions of dollar sustaining a train for a handful of tourists then, yes, it is all about economics.
don_dunstan
Especially for the SA government, who found that their money was being spent on sending tourists to Victoria and getting precious few in return.

The new public transport options in the Barossa Valley are a far better use of the money.

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