T4 and SCO post NIF and T3 Metro conversion

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I'm not arguing for anything Totoro. The only way to achieve Transtopics goals is to build huge amounts of new infrastructure. ATO will not achieve a significant increase in trains per hour and it certainly won't allow 160km/h running in the Sydney network. Transtopic is basing all his ideas of a report in to running faster trains to Wollongong from 2014. The report was really just an election stunt for the 2015 election.

I'm with you Totoro that Metro will be the way forward in Sydney. Metro is modern with level boarding to help with loading times and is 100% accessible. It could easily be built to relieve the stress on the existing network allowing the ST network to become more of an outer suburban network.

115km/h minimum trains speed and running to the quality of the perway is bull dust DJF. The Sydney train's network is the most inspected perway in the country and is maintained to a much higher standard then the crap the XPT runs on outside of the ST network and miles ahead of anything in Victoria and yet 130km/h and 160km/h are allowed on those goat tracks. The speed is maintained because of the multiple stopping patterns on the ST network and the alignments. Nothing to do with the trains minimum speed whatsoever.

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  WimbledonW Train Controller



There is one aspect of our signalling system I do not properly understand.  

1) How far behind a train are signals at STOP?  Is it just the block the train occupies?  Or is it also the preceding block?

2) What is the correct terminology for the various states of the signals?  Stop, Caution, Caution Ahead, Clear ?  Or something else?
"djf01"


A2:
R/R - Stop
G/R - Caution
G/Y - Medium
G/Y Pulsating - Preliminary Medium (introduced about 10 years ago).
G/G - Clear.

Drivers may call these differently.
  C3765 Train Controller

Something more recent and more relevant to the topic this time. From January 2020

The More Trains, More Services Program (the Program) is about building a modern and up to date rail system that will play its part in making Sydney a more productive and liveable city. The Program is a NSW Government initiative to simplify and modernise Sydney’s existing heavy rail network. While the Program will eventually deliver benefits to the entire network, TfNSW propose to start by targeting improvements on Sydney’s busiest lines. The first lines to benefit from the program will be the T4 Eastern Suburbs and Illawarra Line, the South Coast Line and the T8 Airport and South Line. The Program is central to delivering the NSW Government’s long-term vision and commitment to the state’s transport and infrastructure needs. The Program proposes to increase the total number of peak services on the T4 Eastern Suburbs and Illawarra Line by approximately 30 percent and providing a more comfortable journey for customers in the Sutherland Shire, Illawarra and South Coast. Under the More Trains, More Services Program, an additional 29 Tangara trains will be introduced to the T4 Eastern Suburbs and Illawarra Line and potentially the South Coast Line, subject to further development of the operational requirements of the network.
Transport for NSW
With the 17 additional B-Sets which I remember were ordered for Sector 3, it makes sense. The OSCars could also cover for those Tangara sets to allow for “growth” of services of sector 3. How many Tangara sets are currently rostered to run T4 and SCO services on weekdays?
  Totoro Locomotive Fireman

@simstrain

I'm not arguing for anything Totoro. The only way to achieve Transtopics goals is to build huge amounts of new infrastructure..”

See that’s the really interesting part. A big infrastructure spend may yet be possible, and has even been hinted at by State and Federal Govt, as part of COVID recovery plans.

So to me the speculation is not about whether it’s possible (with significant track straightening and driverless operation, I’m sure 160km/hr would be *possible*). The speculation is about how much money Govt will cough up for Sydney Trains; i.e. what is committed and what is not.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Maybe a big infrastructure spend will happen but it is more likely to be on metro and not the ST network. The ST network has so many different types of services trying to share a limited amount of capacity in to the Sydney CBD and there is only so much you can do with the existing network. There is still so much interconnection and nothing can fix it unless new capacity is built.

On the T4 you have the Hurstville trains running with Cronulla, Waterfall and South coast services all on different stopping patterns. If you start to run those SCO services on the same track as the T3 and T8 services then you have to take their path in to the city. In this situation you then start to hinder T2 as well as T8 and the whole point of clearways was to remove this as much as possible.

160km/h is never going to happen on the ST network. Only a new dedicated line will achieve this goal and even with that and ATO the metro doesn't achieve this. At best 130km/h is the speed most likely to be achieved.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

160km/h is never going to happen on the ST network. Only a new dedicated line will achieve this goal and even with that and ATO the metro doesn't achieve this. At best 130km/h is the speed most likely to be achieved.
simstrain

On this, I both agree and disagree with @sims.  

a) It could be made happen, and for negligible cost.  ie with D sets it's only red-tape/administrative issues preventing it.
b) I can't see any way this red tape might be cut through.  Too many people at FRailCorp think like @sims: "It can't be done, it *won't happen".  Neither side of politics stands to benefit by addressing the issue rationally.

So as I see it, it could happen (easily, with negative cost), but it won't.

Put another way, we well likely spend all the money associated with implementing ATO and buying trains capable of 16[0]kph, but won't ever reap the benefits.
  C3765 Train Controller

By the way, if any of you would like to read the actual document you can do so here:
https://yoursay.transport.nsw.gov.au/49248/widgets/260048/documents/127560/download (Page 8)
I’m sure major works will be need to be done on the Sydney Trains network, especially the T4 Line corridor in order to introduce an additional 29 sets and boost peak services by 30% or even 20%.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There is a reason why it can't be done and that is because it can't be done. There is no thinking behind it with the amount of trains we have on different stopping patterns there is nowhere to hit 160km/h before running up the backside of the train in front.

The metro is dedicated with ATO and those trains I have seen hit 130km/h although 100-115km/h mostly. You can even track the speed of the metro trains on the anytrip website. Where the metro has an advantage is that it has a very high average speed vs the Sydney trains network.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

There is a reason why it can't be done and that is because it can't be done. There is no thinking behind it with the amount of trains we have on different stopping patterns there is nowhere to hit 160km/h before running up the backside of the train in front.
simstrain

Yeah.  No-one in the world has ever managed to run a train at 160kph.  It can't be done.  "It can't be done."  

You are right about one thing: there is no thinking behind it.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There is a reason why it can't be done and that is because it can't be done. There is no thinking behind it with the amount of trains we have on different stopping patterns there is nowhere to hit 160km/h before running up the backside of the train in front.

Yeah.  No-one in the world has ever managed to run a train at 160kph.  It can't be done.  "It can't be done."  

You are right about one thing: there is no thinking behind it.
djf01

Not with suburban services on a network like Sydney Trains with a mix of stopping patterns and train types. Look at where 160km/h is achieved in Australia at the moment and it is only in remote areas with nice flat and straight alignments. There isn't anywhere on the metro networks of Australia where any train gets to 160km/h. If you want trains traveling in Sydney at 160km/h or faster then a whole bunch of dedicated tracks are needed.

Look at all the trains in Australia that hit 160km/h. XPT, Prospector, Vlocity, QLD Tilt train and ask yourself what do they all have in common? Then also ask yourself where exactly do they hit those speeds?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

There is a reason why it can't be done and that is because it can't be done. There is no thinking behind it with the amount of trains we have on different stopping patterns there is nowhere to hit 160km/h before running up the backside of the train in front.

Yeah.  No-one in the world has ever managed to run a train at 160kph.  It can't be done.  "It can't be done."  

You are right about one thing: there is no thinking behind it.

Not with suburban services on a network like Sydney Trains with a mix of stopping patterns and train types. Look at where 160km/h is achieved in Australia at the moment and it is only in remote areas with nice flat and straight alignments. There isn't anywhere on the metro networks of Australia where any train gets to 160km/h. If you want trains traveling in Sydney at 160km/h or faster then a whole bunch of dedicated tracks are needed.

Look at all the trains in Australia that hit 160km/h. XPT, Prospector, Vlocity, QLD Tilt train and ask yourself what do they all have in common? Then also ask yourself where exactly do they hit those speeds?
simstrain

I choose to look at places in the world where trains do regularly exceed 160kph, and investigate how it *is* done, not how it isn't.

BTW, what's the alignment like between Penrith and Parramatta?  How about Woonona and Oak Flats?  East Hills and Macarthur (or even Picton)?  Gosford and Wyee?

There are plenty
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Name a place where 160km/h is achieved on a suburban system like Sydney where there is no separation? I bet you can't find one.

RER in france has a top speed of 120km/h and that is the system most like Sydney in Europe. How many stations do you have between Parramatta and Penrith let alone the curves between Parramatta and Seven hills.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Name a place where 160km/h is achieved on a suburban system like Sydney where there is no separation? I bet you can't find one.
simstrain

A "suburban system like Sydney", well that narrows it down.  I guess I forgot how "special" we are.

But off the top of my head:
West Coast Main Line in England - It has commuter and London Overground services.
Trenton - Newark on the NE Corridor in the USA.

But that's right, I forgot "it can't be done", and there is always an excuse.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Name a place where 160km/h is achieved on a suburban system like Sydney where there is no separation? I bet you can't find one.

A "suburban system like Sydney", well that narrows it down.  I guess I forgot how "special" we are.

But off the top of my head:
West Coast Main Line in England - It has commuter and London Overground services.
Trenton - Newark on the NE Corridor in the USA.

But that's right, I forgot "it can't be done", and there is always an excuse.
djf01

The west coast line has it's own dedicated express track pairs all the way in and out of London which Sydney doesn't not have. To match this Sydney would have to quad the line from Hurstville to Waterfall and sextuplify from wolli creek to eveleigh. Hence why I said 160km/h isn't going to happen because money is going towards new Metro projects.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Name a place where 160km/h is achieved on a suburban system like Sydney where there is no separation? I bet you can't find one.

A "suburban system like Sydney", well that narrows it down.  I guess I forgot how "special" we are.

But off the top of my head:
West Coast Main Line in England - It has commuter and London Overground services.
Trenton - Newark on the NE Corridor in the USA.

But that's right, I forgot "it can't be done", and there is always an excuse.

The west coast line has it's own dedicated express track pairs all the way in and out of London which Sydney doesn't not have. To match this Sydney would have to quad the line from Hurstville to Waterfall and sextuplify from wolli creek to eveleigh. Hence why I said 160km/h isn't going to happen because money is going towards new Metro projects.
simstrain

Of course, I always knew there was a reason it can't be done.  There always is.  We can't have 160kph anywhere without sextuping Wolli Creek to Everleigh.  How could I have not realised that?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Now your getting it DJF!!!!! I know your being sarcastic but 160km/h isn't going to happen unless we expand the network with new track to separate the different types of services.

Neither of the systems you mentioned have medium width double deckers weighing 50 tonnes to handle. This is why I mentioned the RER because that is really the only other system like ours in the world. Something I didn't even think about are trains slowing through curved platforms in Sydney. There are many instances of this occurring on the T4 which requires even white board trains to slow to 55km/h and how will ATO solve that issue.

160km/h is a pipe dream in Sydney. Should we be looking to get trains running at 160km/h outside of Sydney absolutely but unless you build new dedicated track you aren't getting these speeds in Sydney.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Now your getting it DJF!!!!! I know your being sarcastic but 160km/h isn't going to happen unless we expand the network with new track to separate the different types of services.
simstrain

Me???  Sacrastic???  What on earth ever gave you that idea?

(This is more cynical than sarcastic, but it's the point I've been trying to make: )  There is a difference between "can't happen" and "won't happen".  The reason things "won't happen" in NSW is primarily because many people - unfortunately more than just @simstrain - say "it can't happen", whether they believe it of not.  With all due respect to all those people (which is to say the respect they are due is quite a bit less than SFA), this is BS.



Neither of the systems you mentioned have medium width double deckers weighing 50 tonnes to handle. This is why I mentioned the RER because that is really the only other system like ours in the world. Something I didn't even think about are trains slowing through curved platforms in Sydney. There are many instances of this occurring on the T4 which requires even white board trains to slow to 55km/h and how will ATO solve that issue.
simstrain

Yet more excuses, and more BS ones at that.  We have the biggest gap between platform and train in the world, and platform clearance is cited as an issue FFS.

The 160kph suggestion is nothing ground breaking.  160kph is not even all that fast.  It's entirely reasonable and entirely possible, indeed the new interurban fleet has been designed with, and *built* with, that very capability.


160km/h is a pipe dream in Sydney. Should we be looking to get trains running at 160km/h outside of Sydney absolutely but unless you build new dedicated track you aren't getting these speeds in Sydney.
Any productivity initiative in Sydney is a pipe dream.  "It can't be done."
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I never said anything about platform clearance. There are many curved platforms in Sydney and the trains can't take those curves at 160km/h and that speed is fast. Waterfall happened at 115km/h so yeah 160km/h can't be done on the ST network. Despite what Transtopic has mentioned the new fleet hasn't been built with 160km/h in mind. The new D sets has similar motors to all the other 4G trainsets and are built for the same 115km/h operation as S3 gunzel mentioned.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I never said anything about platform clearance. There are many curved platforms in Sydney and the trains can't take those curves at 160km/h and that speed is fast. Waterfall happened at 115km/h so yeah 160km/h can't be done on the ST network. Despite what Transtopic has mentioned the new fleet hasn't been built with 160km/h in mind. The new D sets has similar motors to all the other 4G trainsets and are built for the same 115km/h operation as S3 gunzel mentioned.
simstrain

Waterfall occurred on a 200m radius curve.  No-one is suggesting 160hph on 200m radius curves.

And @sims, if you haven't realised yet, I'm not having a go at you specifically/personally, but it is enjoyable to use you as a metaphor for the problems our NSW legacy rail system faces Smile.

There are a few places on the ST network where there are XPT boards of 160, because for all the desire in the world, there is no reason to lower them.  IMHO, there are many more places where the boards could safely be higher for little or no extra cost, but the inertia of "it can't be done" means it won't be done.

Between Woonona and Oak Flats there are only a handful of obstacles preventing 160kph operation, representing over 30min of transit time each way, which if realised would mean the hourly Kiama timetable could be fulfilled with 1 less train (and save $5-8mil per year, regardless of the benefits of service improvement).  But ... "it can't be done" therefore it "won't be done".

I'm a realist, I know "it won't be done."  But just so we are clear, in won't be done not because it can't be done, but because there are too many @simstrains in TfNSW, RailCorp, ST & others somehow on the Gvt Payroll for whom it is too convenient to believe "if can't be done".  

BTW, @transurban, WTF R U?
  Transtopic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I never said anything about platform clearance. There are many curved platforms in Sydney and the trains can't take those curves at 160km/h and that speed is fast. Waterfall happened at 115km/h so yeah 160km/h can't be done on the ST network. Despite what Transtopic has mentioned the new fleet hasn't been built with 160km/h in mind. The new D sets has similar motors to all the other 4G trainsets and are built for the same 115km/h operation as S3 gunzel mentioned.

Waterfall occurred on a 200m radius curve.  No-one is suggesting 160hph on 200m radius curves.

And @sims, if you haven't realised yet, I'm not having a go at you specifically/personally, but it is enjoyable to use you as a metaphor for the problems our NSW legacy rail system faces Smile.

There are a few places on the ST network where there are XPT boards of 160, because for all the desire in the world, there is no reason to lower them.  IMHO, there are many more places where the boards could safely be higher for little or no extra cost, but the inertia of "it can't be done" means it won't be done.

Between Woonona and Oak Flats there are only a handful of obstacles preventing 160kph operation, representing over 30min of transit time each way, which if realised would mean the hourly Kiama timetable could be fulfilled with 1 less train (and save $5-8mil per year, regardless of the benefits of service improvement).  But ... "it can't be done" therefore it "won't be done".

I'm a realist, I know "it won't be done."  But just so we are clear, in won't be done not because it can't be done, but because there are too many @simstrains in TfNSW, RailCorp, ST & others somehow on the Gvt Payroll for whom it is too convenient to believe "if can't be done".  

BTW, @transurban, WTF R U?
djf01
I've refrained from commenting on this current discussion with regard to speed limits, because it's getting way off topic for this thread.

However, as sims continues to deny factual information, raising spurious arguments of why "things can't be done", I feel compelled to challenge his assertions.

I agree with you djf, that "things CAN be done"  if the Sydney Trains' management show a willingness to implement change to improve the performance of the network.  I don't share your pessimism that they are not up to the task, as there are already signs that this process is underway.  The proposed introduction of ATO across the network will be a game-changer, in spite of sims' denial.  It will allow for closer headways and higher average speeds, all controlled automatically similar to the metro.  The only difference will be that the Sydney Trains, Intercity and Regional train fleets will be monitored by a driver/attendant, who will intervene in the case of an emergency situation such as the fouling of tracks, which the driverless metro does automatically.

The latest rolling stock such as the Waratahs, Millenniums and even the H sets all have a maximum speed of 130km/h, although rarely utilised.  The Waratahs have similar acceleration/deceleration performance to the metro trains, although again rarely utilised.  ATO will enable them to make full use of their performance characteristics.  Contrary to sims' assertion, it's my understanding that the current metro trains have a maximum speed of 100km/h, so I don't know where he gets his 130km/h from.  In the face of the published facts, he still denies that the D sets will have a maximum speed of 160km/h.  He seems to continue to think that it's just my opinion.

No-one is suggesting that suburban trains will run up to 160km/h, as they are limited to a maximum of 130km/h, but the D sets (and new Regional trains) will certainly be capable of that where track conditions allow it.  I agree with you that there are sections of track within the Sydney Trains' network as you have suggested, where speed limits could be increased up to 160km/h for the new Intercity and Regional train fleets.  This is particularly relevant on sections of the quadruplicated tracks on the Northern, Western and East Hills Lines, although I can't see it happening on the quad section of the T4 Illawarra Line.  That doesn't mean to say that existing  speed limits couldn't be increased  on T4.  However the raising of speed limits and frequencies is unlikely to happen until ATO is rolled out across the network.

I have studied the speed limits as indicated on the Sydney Trains' Drivers' Route Knowledge diagrams for the main lines in the metropolitan area and as far as I can see, the current maximum speed limit on the white boards is 125km/h. That's on the short length of track on the outer Main lines on the East Hills Line between Salt Pan Creek and Revesby.  Otherwise the maximum speed limit on all lines is 115km/h. I couldn't see any white boards posted at 160km/h.  That doesn't mean that there isn't the potential to increase the speed boards substantially higher where track conditions allow it, particularly when ATO is fully implemented.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I'm not denying any factual information. Yourself and DJF haven't provided any factual information whatsoever to back up any of your claims. All I'm hearing is that "ATO will make it so" with nothing factual to show this to be the case. Where is you factual information to prove yourselves correct. Don't give me that Sydney - Wollongong link as that is not factual information but just a submission and only one item as actually

The D sets are set for 115km/h and not 160km/h as wikipedia incorrectly states. The white boards are for the XPT, Xplorer, Endeavour and the new regional trains and not for V sets, D sets or any suburban electric double deck rolling stock. The new regional train is the only new train that is designated to hit 160km in NSW and that won't be anywhere in Sydney. If you want 160km/h the network needs a complete realignment and expansion. It can't be done on the network as it is even if you add ATO and especially it isn't going to be done with double deck electric rolling stock on anything other then a dedicated high speed rail line.

The metro trains operate around 100km/h but they do get up to 115km/h. Wikipedia is also wrong on the max speed of 100km/h for the Sydney Metro. I mentioned 130km/h because trains like the metro on dedicated tracks can normally get to. The Metro max speed might not be 130 but it is definitely more then 100. If you keep an eye on Anytrip you can see the speed of the metro trains and I just noticed one at 106.4 km/h.
  sunnyyan Station Master

The D sets actually have a max operational speed of 130km/h, same as the OSCARs. They test them up to 143km/h (10% above max).
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The D sets actually have a max operational speed of 130km/h, same as the OSCARs. They test them up to 143km/h (10% above max).
sunnyyan

130km/h white boards could possibly happen if the alignment is fixed but so few areas are even 100km/h on the T4 currently and most of it is 60-80km/h so how are you going to be able to double the current speeds just by introducing ATO.

160km/h is pure dreaming for the Sydney network how it currently exists. The only way to achieve 160km/h is to build out the corridor from Eveleigh to Wolli creek to six tracks and then tunnel from Kogarah to Sutherland to provide a line straight enough for 160km/h.
  neonsprinkle Beginner

Sorry Simstrain, but you are flat out wrong.

I refer you to page 68 of the TOC manual 1 which indeed states that Oscars are allowed to run to the white speed signs. TOC manual 2 page 93 confirms this by stating "Where XPT or High speed signs are provided (black numbers on a white background) OSC trains will run to these speed signs up to a maximum speed of 130 km/h."
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I have studied the speed limits as indicated on the Sydney Trains' Drivers' Route Knowledge diagrams for the main lines in the metropolitan area and as far as I can see, the current maximum speed limit on the white boards is 125km/h. That's on the short length of track on the outer Main lines on the East Hills Line between Salt Pan Creek and Revesby.  Otherwise the maximum speed limit on all lines is 115km/h. I couldn't see any white boards posted at 160km/h.  That doesn't mean that there isn't the potential to increase the speed boards substantially higher where track conditions allow it, particularly when ATO is fully implemented.
Transtopic

There is a short stretch between Dapto and Albion Park white boarded at 140, at least in my aged DRKD.  My memory was it was 160.

There are many places the track geometry would allow white boards of 160, but there are other reasons they might not be in use.

For example, Waterfall to Sutherland is almost all a blanket 115 (Loftus curve a 720m is 90, Heathcote Curve is 800m boarded at 100).

I remember immediately post electrification Wollongong to Woonona was boarded at 110, the V Set's top speed, but it's not now.

The geometry of the Illawarra Down Main and Up Local between Wolli Creek and Hurstville would allow 200kph boarding, with the exception of the curves into the platform at Allawah.

Away from T4, but the western line west of Paramatta is only boarded at 115, but it clearly could be higher if track geometry were the only factor.

I rode on a T set (IIRC) on that section of T1 a year or two ago, and it was a rather lively ride.  I was rather glad once we got to the slower bits of the network.

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