Gippsland line timetabling

 
  skitz Chief Commissioner

I would assume that it would affect acceleration to the point that it would be difficult to maintain the timetable on the Gippsland line, where several stations are no more than a handful of km apart.
DirtyBallast
A point of order, nothing maintains the time table on the Gippsland line.

The service structure is ludicrous with almost all service stopping all stations.  The fore ever dogs breakfast, after its been thrown up all over the floor.

Sponsored advertisement

  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
A point of order, nothing maintains the time table on the Gippsland line.

The service structure is ludicrous with almost all service stopping all stations.  The fore ever dogs breakfast, after its been thrown up all over the floor.
skitz
The overservicing of hamlets 5km apart with minimal patronage completely devalues the Gippsland service - many of the travellers commute to railheads from more distant towns beyond Traralgon and their journeys are unnecessarily delayed at those small places. In a more perfect world, every second local train should run express Drouin-Pakenham.
Maybe there is a case for having some peak period trains originate at Warragul and stop everywhere?

The whole idea of regional fast rail was to facilitate speedy movement of passengers in the major regional centres to Melbourne. 15 years on, it takes longer to get to the city than it did in the mid 2000s.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
A point of order, nothing maintains the time table on the Gippsland line.

The service structure is ludicrous with almost all service stopping all stations.  The fore ever dogs breakfast, after its been thrown up all over the floor.
The overservicing of hamlets 5km apart with minimal patronage completely devalues the Gippsland service - many of the travellers commute to railheads from more distant towns beyond Traralgon and their journeys are unnecessarily delayed at those small places. In a more perfect world, every second local train should run express Drouin-Pakenham.
Maybe there is a case for having some peak period trains originate at Warragul and stop everywhere?

The whole idea of regional fast rail was to facilitate speedy movement of passengers in the major regional centres to Melbourne. 15 years on, it takes longer to get to the city than it did in the mid 2000s.
gippslander
Its great to see that Gippy has not missed out on the over inflated sense of self importance.

Sure it would be wonderful if "my" trip from Traralgon was super fast express all the way.
Stiff sh#t for everybody else along the way, they can walk maybe? Little hamlets, pigs ar#e, they pay their fares and taxes too.

"Unneccesarily delayed" ?? How about put a number on that 10,15 minutes ?
As I said over inflated opinion of importance compared to the hundreds of thousands of metro pax with a daily commute not much better.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

A point of order, nothing maintains the time table on the Gippsland line.

The service structure is ludicrous with almost all service stopping all stations.  The fore ever dogs breakfast, after its been thrown up all over the floor.
The overservicing of hamlets 5km apart with minimal patronage completely devalues the Gippsland service - many of the travellers commute to railheads from more distant towns beyond Traralgon and their journeys are unnecessarily delayed at those small places. In a more perfect world, every second local train should run express Drouin-Pakenham.
Maybe there is a case for having some peak period trains originate at Warragul and stop everywhere?

The whole idea of regional fast rail was to facilitate speedy movement of passengers in the major regional centres to Melbourne. 15 years on, it takes longer to get to the city than it did in the mid 2000s.
Its great to see that Gippy has not missed out on the over inflated sense of self importance.

Sure it would be wonderful if "my" trip from Traralgon was super fast express all the way.
Stiff sh#t for everybody else along the way, they can walk maybe? Little hamlets, pigs ar#e, they pay their fares and taxes too.

"Unneccesarily delayed" ?? How about put a number on that 10,15 minutes ?
As I said over inflated opinion of importance compared to the hundreds of thousands of metro pax with a daily commute not much better.
justarider
I reckon you can pull your head in justarider.   Obviously do not use the 'service' that has even the low fruit ignored.  Then there is the strategic aspects that have been criminally missed, skyrail.   Opportunities blown.  

Gippslander is right, the service does require augmentation to have local service originate at Warragul and run the commuter service more efficiently.   A local could originate at Warragul and combine with a following express at the outer suburban limit and vice versa. There is scope to service both but not every service every time.

The 'me too' aspect is the death of run-time and this incessant focus on frequency.  

15 minutes you say?  Twice a day, five days a week.  Adds up.  Not forgetting that a typical afternoon run sees average speed out to Pakenham as low as 40km/hr.  Ive said before that with a clear run at the Monash emergency lane that my 1963 Fergie TRACTOR has a chance of beating a Velocity to Pakenham. How modern are we as we drive past concrete structure built with no capacity or strategic allowance for the obvious addition tracks?  Just stupid.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
A point of order, nothing maintains the time table on the Gippsland line.

The service structure is ludicrous with almost all service stopping all stations.  The fore ever dogs breakfast, after its been thrown up all over the floor.
The overservicing of hamlets 5km apart with minimal patronage completely devalues the Gippsland service - many of the travellers commute to railheads from more distant towns beyond Traralgon and their journeys are unnecessarily delayed at those small places. In a more perfect world, every second local train should run express Drouin-Pakenham.
Maybe there is a case for having some peak period trains originate at Warragul and stop everywhere?

The whole idea of regional fast rail was to facilitate speedy movement of passengers in the major regional centres to Melbourne. 15 years on, it takes longer to get to the city than it did in the mid 2000s.
Its great to see that Gippy has not missed out on the over inflated sense of self importance.

Sure it would be wonderful if "my" trip from Traralgon was super fast express all the way.
Stiff sh#t for everybody else along the way, they can walk maybe? Little hamlets, pigs ar#e, they pay their fares and taxes too.

"Unneccesarily delayed" ?? How about put a number on that 10,15 minutes ?
As I said over inflated opinion of importance compared to the hundreds of thousands of metro pax with a daily commute not much better.
I reckon you can pull your head in justarider.   Obviously do not use the 'service' that has even the low fruit ignored.  Then there is the strategic aspects that have been criminally missed, skyrail.   Opportunities blown.  

Gippslander is right, the service does require augmentation to have local service originate at Warragul and run the commuter service more efficiently.   A local could originate at Warragul and combine with a following express at the outer suburban limit and vice versa. There is scope to service both but not every service every time.

The 'me too' aspect is the death of run-time and this incessant focus on frequency.  

15 minutes you say?  Twice a day, five days a week.  Adds up.  Not forgetting that a typical afternoon run sees average speed out to Pakenham as low as 40km/hr.  Ive said before that with a clear run at the Monash emergency lane that my 1963 Fergie TRACTOR has a chance of beating a Velocity to Pakenham. How modern are we as we drive past concrete structure built with no capacity or strategic allowance for the obvious addition tracks?  Just stupid.
skitz
pull head in - but then I couldn't even read the time-table that you conveniently overlook.

The discussion was about  the "hamlets" and yet you bang on about Dandenong down.

Reality check -
IF the Gippy line warranted the additional $2B+ to have additional tracks on SkyRail - as per the RRL project -
then it would have similar traffic demand as Geelong + Ballarat + Bendigo.
It DOES NOT. Get over it, not enough pax in the next 30 years to come even close. Not an opportunity missed, it's wastage saved.

6 full V/Los (approx 3000 pax) in the morning peak over-taking the requirements of 30+ packed Metro (approx 40,000) - soon to be extended HCMT. That IS overblown self-importance.

I didn't say 15 minutes. I posed an unanswered question, but since you are so het up about it, some facts:
Mon-Fri UP from Traralgon to Dandenong  4:31, 5:56, 7:19 SAS = 1 hr 33, 1hr 35, 1hr 31.
Mon-Fri UP from Traralgon to Dandenong  5:26, 6:36, 7:34 limited EX = 1hr 21, 1hr 25, 1hr 35
SAS inter-peak = 1hr:30
that's approx 10 minutes difference. Tough titty, suck it up for living so far away.

BUT you could as suggested by Gippslander, just by-pass the "hamlets" of Morwell, Moe, Warragul, Drouin and run half empty - good luck with the angry mob.
Some short-starters from Warragul sounds good, BUT are there enough pax to fill it? Dubious. I don't even get how you would do an SAS in front of an EX. Wait for 2nd train to run up the backside of the front-runner ?

As for being no better than the good old days - prior RRR - then just go back to 4 trains per day (now 20), SAS @ 2hrs 09. :roll:LOL.
Some people just don't know how to say thank you for what they get.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
^ What you need to consider is that in the 'old days' of the 1990's, a semi-express N Set with a maximum speed of just 115 km/h covered the Traralgon to Dandenong sector in just 1h25m. It ran express from Warragul to Dandenong in just 45m.

What annoys Gippsland passengers the most, apart from the congestion under the wires, is that every single bloody train stops at the village of Garfield and the so-called evening Down 'flagship' also stops at Bunyip and Longwarry. Everyone gets that this is public transport and is therefore provided for as much of the public as possible, but there has definitely been an oversupply of services to the hamlets. it doesn't happen to this extent on the other lines.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
I hasten to add, immediately prior to RFR there were at least 7 trains each way per day to Traralgon (maybe 9, I can't remember). It was 4 back in the 1960's.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
^ What you need to consider is that in the 'old days' of the 1990's, a semi-express N Set with a maximum speed of just 115 km/h covered the Traralgon to Dandenong sector in just 1h25m. It ran express from Warragul to Dandenong in just 45m.

What annoys Gippsland passengers the most, apart from the congestion under the wires, is that every single bloody train stops at the village of Garfield and the so-called evening Down 'flagship' also stops at Bunyip and Longwarry. Everyone gets that this is public transport and is therefore provided for as much of the public as possible, but there has definitely been an oversupply of services to the hamlets. it doesn't happen to this extent on the other lines.
DirtyBallast
I stand corrected. it was 4 per day in 1975.
N sets doing the run in 1hr 25. Same as today. Nothing to do with slow N sets, single tracks and old signals, I wonder ???

And yes. A Warragul to Dandy in 45 minutes express. Problem was it didn't arrive in Melbourne until 10:40 am. Not much use for commuters.

I don't get the stop at "garfield" either, but on the DOWN semi-EX it's only the slow N sets anyway. Maybe something to do with being the last platform before the single track starts.

But taking out Bunyip and Longwarry is a step too far.
It is PUBLIC transport, and asking those few to wait another 1 HOUR to get an evening SAS (or NOTHING ?) is unreasonable. Other lines having a crap service to small hamlets ( NE Line, Warrnambool) is no excuse to lower service even further.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
People talk of hamlets on the Gippsland line (West of Traralgon) the only real hamlets are Nar Nar Goon and Tynong, these towns fit In with the likes of Little River, Clarkfield, Heathcote Junction (towns so close to the Melbourne metropolitan area, but with no/little signs of growth) Donnybrook would of been another but It's experiencing a surge In patronage In resent years.

Other towns like Garfield, Bunyip, Longwarry, Yarragon and Trafalgar are all steadily growing with new housing estates sprining up.The Gippsland line Is unique compared to other main regional passenger lines In Victoria, because of the high level of localised passenger tripd (everyone ain't just jumping on the train bound for Melbourne or Dandenong In the morning) this Is because the population Is spreed out.

As for local Warragul short starters, there probably won't be any available paths through the suburban area to accommodate them, so they would have to terminate at Pakenham or Dandenong, but that said there Is probably just as much demand for a shuttle train to go East of Warragul to Traralgon (even Sale !)

One thing for sure In this day and age, no station will receive a permanent reduction In services (a case could be put forwards to run buses between Pakenham and Garfield to serve Nar Nar Goon and Tynong during the peak times, to permit Traralgon trains to express through, but It would be costly.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

It's a pity that the overhead past Pakenham is taken out after being damaged by fallen tree in 2006.  Before that suburban trains could run empty to Bunyip for maintenance so extending passenger services there would incur minimal cost, allowing more express running for country trains.  Of course originally the wires went as far as Traralgon.  It would be nice if all that was kept but only a nice thought.
  tom9876543 Train Controller

The existing timetable has all stops from Traralgon to Dandenong (excluding Berwick) taking around 1hr35min.
The problem is the slow time between Dandenong to Flinders St.
VLine trains should be non-stop express from Dandenong to Flinders St.
Total time between Dandenong and Flinders St should be 25min (if VLine trains go 90-100km/h where possible).

The total time for VLine train Traralgon to Flinders St should be 2 hours. That includes all stops up to Pakenham + Dandenong stop.
In comparison, a car journey Traralgon to Melbourne is about 1hr45min.
I think if the VLine train was given an express path Dandenong to Flinders St, patronage would noticeably increase.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
The existing timetable has all stops from Traralgon to Dandenong (excluding Berwick) taking around 1hr35min.
The problem is the slow time between Dandenong to Flinders St.
VLine trains should be non-stop express from Dandenong to Flinders St.
Total time between Dandenong and Flinders St should be 25min (if VLine trains go 90-100km/h where possible).

The total time for VLine train Traralgon to Flinders St should be 2 hours. That includes all stops up to Pakenham + Dandenong stop.
In comparison, a car journey Traralgon to Melbourne is about 1hr45min.
I think if the VLine train was given an express path Dandenong to Flinders St, patronage would noticeably increase.
tom9876543
Yeah sure, coulda, shouda, wouda.

Not for the first time to point out that the line is aready chocka.

Wot ? you propose that the 40,000+ packed Metro morning peak pax have to squeeze into half as many trains,
so that the 3,000 tops Gippy pax can save some time.

Or just throw in another $2B++, for an exclusive track for the fortunate few.

Again, an over inflated sense of self importance.

Believe it or not, big $$ is already being spent on track upgrades, high speed signal, better trains.  
Gippy will be one of the beneficiarys, just not the only one.

PS: 1hr 45 trip to CBD in morning peak on the Monash. Can I have some of what your smokin ?I
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
What Gippsland commuters continually experience is that every time a new timetable comes out, services are further slowed.

There is also the ever present feeling of dread while sitting at Platform 2 at Dandenong wondering if the Up Cranbourne sitting adjacent at Platform 3 will depart first, adding another 20 minutes to the trip by being forced to follow it under yellows until Caulfield.

Suburban congestion is understood believe it or not. It is a simplistic argument that Gippsland V-Line commuters should enjoy the same dedicated lines as experienced by those on the other side of the CBD; the only way a 3rd track could be justified is if some Metro services get to use it as well, which would add to the cost dramatically due to electrification. Catch 22.

At the very least, to offset the timetable losses in recent years, the semi-express trains that already exist should stop at fewer stations. If the whole idea of a Traralgon 'flagship' service is to transport Latrobe Valley commuters to and from Melbourne, then it should run express from Warragul to Dandenong. I would also suggest that Sale or Bairnsdale trains run express Traralgon - Dandenong then FSS.

At the moment, if anyone wants to actually travel 'express' they are forced to drive.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
It's a pity that the overhead past Pakenham is taken out after being damaged by fallen tree in 2006.  Before that suburban trains could run empty to Bunyip for maintenance so extending passenger services there would incur minimal cost, allowing more express running for country trains.  Of course originally the wires went as far as Traralgon.  It would be nice if all that was kept but only a nice thought.
route14
The overhead catenary between Pakenham and Warragul was removed In 2004, It was life expired as a test train pulled down a section near Bunyip, this meant It all had to come down for the safety of the traveling public.
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Believe it or not, big $$ is already being spent on track upgrades, high speed signal, better trains. Gippy will be one of the beneficiarys, just not the only one.  
justarider
Can you please elaborate on how this will decrease travel times?
  skitz Chief Commissioner

A point of order, nothing maintains the time table on the Gippsland line.

The service structure is ludicrous with almost all service stopping all stations.  The fore ever dogs breakfast, after its been thrown up all over the floor.
The overservicing of hamlets 5km apart with minimal patronage completely devalues the Gippsland service - many of the travellers commute to railheads from more distant towns beyond Traralgon and their journeys are unnecessarily delayed at those small places. In a more perfect world, every second local train should run express Drouin-Pakenham.
Maybe there is a case for having some peak period trains originate at Warragul and stop everywhere?

The whole idea of regional fast rail was to facilitate speedy movement of passengers in the major regional centres to Melbourne. 15 years on, it takes longer to get to the city than it did in the mid 2000s.
Its great to see that Gippy has not missed out on the over inflated sense of self importance.

Sure it would be wonderful if "my" trip from Traralgon was super fast express all the way.
Stiff sh#t for everybody else along the way, they can walk maybe? Little hamlets, pigs ar#e, they pay their fares and taxes too.

"Unneccesarily delayed" ?? How about put a number on that 10,15 minutes ?
As I said over inflated opinion of importance compared to the hundreds of thousands of metro pax with a daily commute not much better.
I reckon you can pull your head in justarider.   Obviously do not use the 'service' that has even the low fruit ignored.  Then there is the strategic aspects that have been criminally missed, skyrail.   Opportunities blown.  

Gippslander is right, the service does require augmentation to have local service originate at Warragul and run the commuter service more efficiently.   A local could originate at Warragul and combine with a following express at the outer suburban limit and vice versa. There is scope to service both but not every service every time.

The 'me too' aspect is the death of run-time and this incessant focus on frequency.  

15 minutes you say?  Twice a day, five days a week.  Adds up.  Not forgetting that a typical afternoon run sees average speed out to Pakenham as low as 40km/hr.  Ive said before that with a clear run at the Monash emergency lane that my 1963 Fergie TRACTOR has a chance of beating a Velocity to Pakenham. How modern are we as we drive past concrete structure built with no capacity or strategic allowance for the obvious addition tracks?  Just stupid.
pull head in - but then I couldn't even read the time-table that you conveniently overlook.

The discussion was about  the "hamlets" and yet you bang on about Dandenong down.

Reality check -
IF the Gippy line warranted the additional $2B+ to have additional tracks on SkyRail - as per the RRL project -
then it would have similar traffic demand as Geelong + Ballarat + Bendigo.
It DOES NOT. Get over it, not enough pax in the next 30 years to come even close. Not an opportunity missed, it's wastage saved.

6 full V/Los (approx 3000 pax) in the morning peak over-taking the requirements of 30+ packed Metro (approx 40,000) - soon to be extended HCMT. That IS overblown self-importance.

I didn't say 15 minutes. I posed an unanswered question, but since you are so het up about it, some facts:
Mon-Fri UP from Traralgon to Dandenong  4:31, 5:56, 7:19 SAS = 1 hr 33, 1hr 35, 1hr 31.
Mon-Fri UP from Traralgon to Dandenong  5:26, 6:36, 7:34 limited EX = 1hr 21, 1hr 25, 1hr 35
SAS inter-peak = 1hr:30
that's approx 10 minutes difference. Tough titty, suck it up for living so far away.

BUT you could as suggested by Gippslander, just by-pass the "hamlets" of Morwell, Moe, Warragul, Drouin and run half empty - good luck with the angry mob.
Some short-starters from Warragul sounds good, BUT are there enough pax to fill it? Dubious. I don't even get how you would do an SAS in front of an EX. Wait for 2nd train to run up the backside of the front-runner ?

As for being no better than the good old days - prior RRR - then just go back to 4 trains per day (now 20), SAS @ 2hrs 09. :roll:LOL.
Some people just don't know how to say thank you for what they get.
justarider
Ill say it again, pull your head in. It certainly had the right effect on you saying that.  Lets see you go again.  

The selective use of 'facts' is very unbecoming and if you were a user of the service you would understand and not be so quick to reply the way you did.

'Living the dream' on the run is a two hour run each way from Trafalgar to Southern Cross, if you're lucky.  The reliability is woeful and the services selected by yourself off the time table are far from whay happens.

As for the over self importance, four tracks from Dandenong to Caulfield would benefit suburban users even more than country passengers.  They too are stuck with this 'stop at every station' madness for all services too.  The term 'limited express', what a joke.  Suburban users too have been cut short by the farce-rail decisions and furthur more the building of a network so vulnerable to little things going wrong - no resilience to the system.  

You mention bypassing the halmets of the major towns is a pathic justification for your arguement, WTF?  It was clearly the suggesteion was to augment the services to inner and outer use of the country areas around Warragul.  The stops between Pakenham and Drouin are far too many and way too close together, 4km apart.    One only has to look at the list of stops on the screen at Southern Cross to see, two columns of places and that is on top of 60km of being stuck behind sparks (can we hear the Sunbury Sunshine whingers now).

A combination of express and local services would be far better use of resources and suitable for a greater proportion of the users.  The same for suburban.   Yet two tracks, no capcity other than to get in line and go slow.

The question should be what are you smoking justarider?  Or is it angry pills?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Until that is done, how about making all stops between Pakenham and Warragul request stops?  Although conductors don't reject boarding at Pakenham on the up, it's not a passenger service requirement to do so, up trains can depart all suburban stops early.  If the train controller is enthusiastic enough, h/she can divert the Gippsland train via Frankston line when opportunity exists.  At least the last up Bairnsdale can do this.  If it was held at Caulfield for another minute for the down Frankston to clear the pedestrian underpass, the up Bairnsdale would be able to divert via Frankston line and face green over red all the way, instead of following a suburban train (be it up Pakenham or Cranbourne) all the way.  On the down early running trains will have to lay up at Warragul for departure time but at least those alighting there will have a chance of getting off earlier, who form quite a considerable portion of Gippsland services.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Believe it or not, big $$ is already being spent on track upgrades, high speed signal, better trains. Gippy will be one of the beneficiarys, just not the only one.  
Can you please elaborate on how this will decrease travel times?
jakar
this might also cover some of @skitz concerns.

Most of the track from South Yarra to Dandenong is speed limit 80kph.
Both Metro and V/Line have to obey these present restrictions.
If I want to drive down the freeway at 160kph, I'm not "stuck behind" a slow moving car doing 100kph, I'm just wanting to break the law.

The speed limit is governed by multiple factors, major ones being track condition, sight lines and signaling.
Big $$ spends that address trip speed
  • Level Crossing removals- now the drivers do not have to keep constant lookout for errant cars & trucks.
  • High Speed Signals (part of metro Tunnel works) - keeping multiple blocks back from preceding train a thing of the past. With in-cab "signal" the driver can safely progress at higher speed and closer gap.
  • Track is now Cat 1. potential 130kph. In reality not that high , maybe 100.
  • Metro tunnel portal. - V/line has exclusive line from South Yarra UP.  A "real" express from Caulfield to Richmond.
  • HCMT trains, superior accelleration and for some stretches (MATHS) high end speed
  • Replace slow "N" sets with V/Lo. Poor acceleration out from a halt clogs up all following traffic.
All up a quicker end to end for Metro that V/Line can fit into. 10 minutes not an unreasonable guess.
The bonus for Metro is that can squeeze extra round trips in peak from some of the train sets.

Beyond Metro, also big $$
  • Duplicate track Garfield to Longwarry. No waiting to pass.
  • 4 stations with 2nd platform. 3 of them "hamlets". Morewell is a big win for passing trains.
  • Level Crossing and signal upgrades to enable quicker running.


Each of these upgrades on their own doesn't sound much, but the total package will make a substantial difference.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Believe it or not, big $$ is already being spent on track upgrades, high speed signal, better trains. Gippy will be one of the beneficiarys, just not the only one.  
Can you please elaborate on how this will decrease travel times?
this might also cover some of @skitz concerns.

Most of the track from South Yarra to Dandenong is speed limit 80kph.
Both Metro and V/Line have to obey these present restrictions.
If I want to drive down the freeway at 160kph, I'm not "stuck behind" a slow moving car doing 100kph, I'm just wanting to break the law.

The speed limit is governed by multiple factors, major ones being track condition, sight lines and signaling.
Big $$ spends that address trip speed
  • Level Crossing removals- now the drivers do not have to keep constant lookout for errant cars & trucks.
  • High Speed Signals (part of metro Tunnel works) - keeping multiple blocks back from preceding train a thing of the past. With in-cab "signal" the driver can safely progress at higher speed and closer gap.
  • Track is now Cat 1. potential 130kph. In reality not that high , maybe 100.
  • Metro tunnel portal. - V/line has exclusive line from South Yarra UP.  A "real" express from Caulfield to Richmond.
  • HCMT trains, superior accelleration and for some stretches (MATHS) high end speed
  • Replace slow "N" sets with V/Lo. Poor acceleration out from a halt clogs up all following traffic.
All up a quicker end to end for Metro that V/Line can fit into. 10 minutes not an unreasonable guess.
The bonus for Metro is that can squeeze extra round trips in peak from some of the train sets.

Beyond Metro, also big $$
  • Duplicate track Garfield to Longwarry. No waiting to pass.
  • 4 stations with 2nd platform. 3 of them "hamlets". Morewell is a big win for passing trains.
  • Level Crossing and signal upgrades to enable quicker running.


Each of these upgrades on their own doesn't sound much, but the total package will make a substantial difference.
justarider
Yep. The hope is that reliability improvements will flow on. A big win for any passenger on a train from Gippsland is to arrive on time. Too often, much time is added to the running time if paths are missed.

The biggest gains will come from duplicating Longwarry - Garfield and extending Morwell loop. Let's assume a Utopian scenario of every train running on time in the future; this will be equivalent to a significant rise in overall average speeds compared to now.

But, more express services will help too.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Each of these upgrades on their own doesn't sound much, but the total package will make a substantial difference.
Yep. The hope is that reliability improvements will flow on. A big win for any passenger on a train from Gippsland is to arrive on time. Too often, much time is added to the running time if paths are missed.

The biggest gains will come from duplicating Longwarry - Garfield and extending Morwell loop. Let's assume a Utopian scenario of every train running on time in the future; this will be equivalent to a significant rise in overall average speeds compared to now.

But, more express services will help too.
DirtyBallast
Missed paths - good point.
Should also note that with High Speed Signal, a missed path becomes a non-issue.

Trains, including V/Line, are then turn up and go.

Half the morning up are already limited EX. I take it you mean an additional EX or two, not just changing some of the SAS. Fair enough if can fill the seats.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
I always find it interesting to compare the different service levels on each line. The much maligned Albury service is clearly there for the benefit of transporting people from beyond Seymour, to and from Melbourne. Most Warrnambool services are similarly designed to not stop at stations catered for by SAS services. Why should Gippsland be different?

It seems like trains on the Gippsland line run to a stopping pattern that tries to be everything to everyone. The evening Down 'flagship' still stops at 10 intermediate stations out of 15 beyond Richmond, yet the equivalent Bendigo service runs express from Footscray all the way to Castlemaine! Gisborne, Woodend and Kyneton are significantly larger than Garfield, Bunyip and Longwarry. The aforementioned Albury and Warrnambool services typically stop at just one station between Melbourne and Seymour or Geelong, for suburban connectivity, yet the Bairnsdale train stops at nine between Traralgon and Flinders Street!

The longer distance InterCity trains should be just that, and the flagship commuter express trains should be just that. Additional local services originating from Warragul to cater for the villages can be the ones terminating at Pakenham in the future, i.e. shuttles.

Oh well, at least they are widening the Monash again.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
I always find it interesting to compare the different service levels on each line. The much maligned Albury service is clearly there for the benefit of transporting people from beyond Seymour, to and from Melbourne. Most Warrnambool services are similarly designed to not stop at stations catered for by SAS services. Why should Gippsland be different?

It seems like trains on the Gippsland line run to a stopping pattern that tries to be everything to everyone. The evening Down 'flagship' still stops at 10 intermediate stations out of 15 beyond Richmond, yet the equivalent Bendigo service runs express from Footscray all the way to Castlemaine! Gisborne, Woodend and Kyneton are significantly larger than Garfield, Bunyip and Longwarry. The aforementioned Albury and Warrnambool services typically stop at just one station between Melbourne and Seymour or Geelong, for suburban connectivity, yet the Bairnsdale train stops at nine between Traralgon and Flinders Street!

The longer distance InterCity trains should be just that, and the flagship commuter express trains should be just that. Additional local services originating from Warragul to cater for the villages can be the ones terminating at Pakenham in the future, i.e. shuttles.

Oh well, at least they are widening the Monash again.
DirtyBallast
well may you ask why Gippsland is different.

Albury has an overlapping V/line service down to Seymour. So it makes sense that Albury skips the duplicated stops.
Warrnambool has overlapping V/Line down to Warrn Ponds. So also skip the duplicates.

Gippsland doesn't have this doubling beyond the Metro boundary of Pakenham. Hence all those additional stops only have one option.

Gippsland also has 4 set down points for inter-change with the broader Metro transport network
  • Dandenong - for connect to the SAS Metro stations UP (until Caulfield), and Cranbourne
  • Clayton - for all cross connects to the Eastern suburbs. Will be even more so with SRL.
  • Caulfield - for SAS Metro stations up, and Frankston. Will be even more so with MM1
  • Richmond - everything else

Whereas for the other lines, it's only Sunshine, Broadmeadows and to a lesser extent Footscray.

It is arguable that Pakenham and Richmond aren't needed by V/Line, given their good coverage by Metro.

And I do agree that the scarcity of DOWN evening EX services is a disgrace.
Almost all services being SAS makes no sense when after Metro boundary there are effectively no "slow" services preceding.

Bendigo is the case in point where an EX can by-pass major intermediate stops, with those others backed up by a following SAS.
It does mean Bendigo has extra services relative to Gippy, which bring full circle back to a chocka line with few available paths.

cheers
John
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Believe it or not, big $$ is already being spent on track upgrades, high speed signal, better trains. Gippy will be one of the beneficiarys, just not the only one.  
Can you please elaborate on how this will decrease travel times?
this might also cover some of @skitz concerns.

Most of the track from South Yarra to Dandenong is speed limit 80kph.
Both Metro and V/Line have to obey these present restrictions.
If I want to drive down the freeway at 160kph, I'm not "stuck behind" a slow moving car doing 100kph, I'm just wanting to break the law.

The speed limit is governed by multiple factors, major ones being track condition, sight lines and signaling.
Big $$ spends that address trip speed
  • Level Crossing removals- now the drivers do not have to keep constant lookout for errant cars & trucks.
  • High Speed Signals (part of metro Tunnel works) - keeping multiple blocks back from preceding train a thing of the past. With in-cab "signal" the driver can safely progress at higher speed and closer gap.
  • Track is now Cat 1. potential 130kph. In reality not that high , maybe 100.
  • Metro tunnel portal. - V/line has exclusive line from South Yarra UP.  A "real" express from Caulfield to Richmond.
  • HCMT trains, superior accelleration and for some stretches (MATHS) high end speed
  • Replace slow "N" sets with V/Lo. Poor acceleration out from a halt clogs up all following traffic.
All up a quicker end to end for Metro that V/Line can fit into. 10 minutes not an unreasonable guess.
The bonus for Metro is that can squeeze extra round trips in peak from some of the train sets.

Beyond Metro, also big $$
  • Duplicate track Garfield to Longwarry. No waiting to pass.
  • 4 stations with 2nd platform. 3 of them "hamlets". Morewell is a big win for passing trains.
  • Level Crossing and signal upgrades to enable quicker running.


Each of these upgrades on their own doesn't sound much, but the total package will make a substantial difference.
justarider
Justarider I'll address a couple of your points as I think you're a bit off the mark with your thinking:

Most of the track from South Yarra to Dandenong is speed limit 80kph. Both Metro and V/Line have to obey these present restrictions. If I want to drive down the freeway at 160kph, I'm not "stuck behind" a slow moving car doing 100kph, I'm just wanting to break the law.
justarider
I don't understand the relevance of this? To use your analogy no one is wanting to break any law or increase the maximum speed limit, they just want to be able to 'go down the freeway' at close to the speed limit and not be delayed by a slow moving vehicle in front that is doing half the speed but you can't overtake.

Level Crossing removals- now the drivers do not have to keep constant lookout for errant cars & trucks.
justarider
That's great for my safety but has zero to do track speed or reducing travel times.

High Speed Signals (part of metro Tunnel works) - keeping multiple blocks back from preceding train a thing of the past. With in-cab "signal" the driver can safely progress at higher speed and closer gap.
justarider
You are confusing speed and capacity. The high capacity signalling will allow trains to be closer together but will not get me through the section any quicker. As it is now, I have to wait at at the home signals at Caulfield and Dandenong in both the UP and DOWN direction for the Metro train in front to depart, the new signalling is not going to change that.

Track is now Cat 1. potential 130kph. In reality not that high , maybe 100.
justarider
Line speed is not increasing. There is no benefit for Metro to do so given the spacing of stations, and even if it did it would just mean the V/Line services would just catch the SAS service in front a few seconds quicker.

Metro tunnel portal. - V/line has exclusive line from South Yarra UP. A "real" express from Caulfield to Richmond.
justarider
Currently on the UP you don't normally catch anything until around Hawksburn / Sth Yarra anyway. It may save a few seconds on the approach to Richmond but the benefit of that has been somewhat lost already with the reduction in line and curve speed between Hawksburn and Sth Yarra (and Nar Nar Goon and Pakenham).

HCMT trains, superior accelleration and for some stretches (MATHS) high end speed
justarider
There may be a few seconds saving here, time will tell, trains already do line speed in the MATHS section so that is not going to change.

Replace slow "N" sets with V/Lo. Poor acceleration out from a halt clogs up all following traffic.
justarider
There is only 1 loco hauled service each way a day, the only way it clogs up following traffic is if there is another express service behind it, which there isn't. Just like a Vlo it too has to slowly follow a stopping all services metropolitan service.

All up a quicker end to end for Metro that V/Line can fit into. 10 minutes not an unreasonable guess.
justarider
It is very unreasonable. The only way you're going to get anywhere near that time saving is by additional tracks which you are dead set against, even though it would greatly benefit suburban passengers as well.

Should also note that with High Speed Signal, a missed path becomes a non-issue.
justarider
Nonsense, miss a path currently and you end up 20 or so minutes late which has flow on effects for the next service and platform availability etc. Unless you plan on making all Gippsland services slower by always immediately following a SAS service this is not going to change with new signalling.

Duplicate track Garfield to Longwarry. No waiting to pass. 4 stations with 2nd platform. 3 of them "hamlets". Morewell is a big win for passing trains. Level Crossing and signal upgrades to enable quicker running.
justarider
There will be a small time saving with the duplication mostly for down trains. The last few UP services i've ran from Traralgon it wouldn't have made any difference so no time savings there. Reliability will however be improved when things go out of whack. Yet again, level crossings have no bearing on running times/speed and ditto for the current signalling arrangements.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

"Most of the track from South Yarra to Dandenong is speed limit 80kph."
I remember seeing the old line speed on Vicsig, with a speed limit of 95 km/h between Oakleigh and Noble Park.  The Skyrail is even slower than surface rail?
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Thanks @jakar for taking the time to reply.

Couple of points to clarify my thinking. You may not agree, time will tell how things pan out.

80kph is the limit for V/line on the section. Metro train in front or not can't change that. My analogy to freeway drivng was a bit flippant, sorry bout that.

Level Crossings do affect the safety planning vis a viz sight lines.
Unlike signalling where the driver is aware what is happening in front, for LX the driver must be able to see and avoid danger on his/her own initiative. Hence a limited speed such that driver can see and avoid in time ie: 80kph.
We have already seen the unfortunate result at Surrey Hills in a section where the driver could not see in time, and even that was only at 80.
Removing all the LX takes this factor out of the consideration for track speed.

Raising the line speed above 80 is also in Metro interest. A SAS is not going to manage in the shorter sections, however longer parts ( > 2km) would get a definite boost. Express Caulfield to the Portal/Richmond @ 130+ kph is a worthy goal for both services.

My point about N sets is that, yes they get obstructed same asV/lo, but have a harder time recovering.

Turn up & go, is the big promise of HCS.
Hence when V/line arrives 2 minutes late, do not wait while 3 of 4 Metro go thru until another larger gap appears  - just go next even if it means up the tail of a SAS. Better than wasting another 20 minutes.

The removal of single track definitely imoroves reliability. No more waiting for another late train to cross.  
Not only can achieve the TT,  but the TT plan doesn't need to build in fat.
Eliminating waiting = quicker end to end = higher average speed.. Can then consider actual running at 160 the track is capable of.

cheers
John

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.