Southern Model Supply C38

 
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
Hello all,

I am confused by many of the preceeding posts.  Are we talking about SMS vs Lima or is there some other brand involved?  The obfuscation is baffling.

We should only be comparing models of equivalent value.  A model costing twice as much should be twice as good.  How do you measure value for money?

I think it is good to provide lower cost (and usually lower quality) locos and rollingstock to help younger modellers get into the hobby.  Why should a new entrant to the hobby be forced to pay for a belts and whistles model?  A lower standard and cheaper model makes much more sense.

Happy modelling,

John

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  a6et Minister for Railways

Hello all,

I am confused by many of the preceeding posts.  Are we talking about SMS vs Lima or is there some other brand involved?  The obfuscation is baffling.

We should only be comparing models of equivalent value.  A model costing twice as much should be twice as good.  How do you measure value for money?

I think it is good to provide lower cost (and usually lower quality) locos and rollingstock to help younger modellers get into the hobby.  Why should a new entrant to the hobby be forced to pay for a belts and whistles model?  A lower standard and cheaper model makes much more sense.

Happy modelling,

John
c3526blue
John

Some years back I had a Lima 38cl, some of the aspects regarding it which were pretty much toy market quality was the simplified valve gear, poor motor, which could not be seen, and the other primary area was the tender and wheel flanges. In many ways the overall body did not do a bad job of representing what the 38cl actually looked like.

Fast forwarding to the SMS latest edition, the question regarding the model especially in this day and age is how much harder would it have been to have gotten the model closer to even the Lima model at least Loco side of things?  The team behind this model must have had some idea as the general shape of the body in itself is presentable but, its the clunky items that kill it, along with more than enough poor replications of many areas on it.

I have no idea where the people who were involved in its design are located but, if they are on the Eastern side of Oz, they could have readily sought permission from the people at Thirlmere to go there and take measurements and detail items on 2 non streamlined 38's that are at that location. That aside there are any number of books that are available that have quality photo's of the loco's that could have utilised.

Finally, is it easier or harder when in the design stages, and sample production point to get the product that would have a big demand produced with correct detail, rather than with incorrect detail? In looking at that point, how much extra, (if any) would it have cost to get the finish done correctly?

I would be pretty sure that even if it cost another $100.00 for that as against the $299.00 asked for, there would be much more demand and likely sales.

I just noticed on the previous page that the model is now being promoted by Hornby/Lima, did not see this post before I put this reply out.  It does not however alter my view of the model, but showing the model from the fireman's side certainly provides a more favourable view than the drivers side.  Still the primary areas of concern are there to see and would not have cost more to have the detail correct rather than how it comes.
https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/lima-h0-1-87.html
  M636C Minister for Railways

So it is the Lima 38 class....

Just not the one we had before.....

More to the point it comes with the three passenger cars that were available before....
I wonder if anything else is coming back?

Knuckle couplers will be a help.

Peter
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The coaches on the Hornby site show the old style Lima couplers.  
I guess those are photos of old stock, otherwise they wouldn't couple to the loco?
  rainynight65 Locomotive Fireman

The coaches on the Hornby site show the old style Lima couplers.  
I guess those are photos of old stock, otherwise they wouldn't couple to the loco?
lkernan
It looks like both the passenger cars and the tender on the loco might have NEM coupler pockets, so couplers are interchangeable. It would make sense if they're producing them for the European market too.
  ssaunders Train Controller

While some here are complaining about the detail I suspect you aren't the target market, of course it could be better and of course the price could be more, if it was put out by Hornby/Lima with some 12 wheelers in a train set what a great way to promote the hobby and get younger (Australian) people who have an interest into modelling.

Horses for courses.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
It's amazing what you can find out with a  simple email. The website say Knuckle couplers. And they assure me it wil run on Code 75 track.

Regards,
David Head
  M636C Minister for Railways

It's amazing what you can find out with a  simple email. The website say Knuckle couplers. And they assure me it will run on Code 75 track.

Regards,
David Head
"dthead"


Looking closely at the photos of the locomotive coupled to the three cars it looks like the locomotive has the old European couplers. The other photos do show knuckle couplers, so the loco at least must have NEM interchangeable couplers.

I just received an e-mail from the English retailer Hattons advertising the locomotive for GB Pounds 148.00. I think I bought one item from them maybe fifteen years ago...  No customer data is ever wasted....

Peter
  br30453 Chief Train Controller

Don't forget .... there's always the other brand to choose from.

Allan Brown
And how much better is that? Considering price and and the errors on it.
The other brand is much better. I saw a pilot model of the SMS C38 at Hobbyco and it is as bad as others have observed. It has over scale rivets, poor, low definition detail, incorrectly mounted valve gear, coarse over wide wheels with cookie cutter shaped deep flanges, finished with the wrong green for the 1946 to 1950 version being supplied. It lacks pickups on the tender, so do not expect good low speed running over Peco insulfrog turnouts. Compared to the other alternatives, it not good value in my opinion.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855
Hattons Dave Mod Stephen Bedingfield11 hours ago

Hi Stephen, yes, the model with have a 5 pole motor located in the locomotive, with pickups in the tender.


  M636C Minister for Railways

Don't forget .... there's always the other brand to choose from.

Allan Brown
And how much better is that? Considering price and and the errors on it.
The other brand is much better. I saw a pilot model of the SMS C38 at Hobbyco and it is as bad as others have observed. It has over scale rivets, poor, low definition detail, incorrectly mounted valve gear, coarse over wide wheels with cookie cutter shaped deep flanges, finished with the wrong green for the 1946 to 1950 version being supplied. It lacks pickups on the tender, so do not expect good low speed running over Peco insulfrog turnouts. Compared to the other alternatives, it not good value in my opinion.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855
Hattons Dave Mod Stephen Bedingfield11 hours ago

Hi Stephen, yes, the model with have a 5 pole motor located in the locomotive, with pickups in the tender.

"br30453"


I've found that recent Hornby models generally run very well...
It is possible that the Hornby 38 could run better than the Eureka 38....

If it is up to the normal Hornby standard it could sell very well, and additional versions might follow.

Prter
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
From the LittleTrainShop Youtube channel:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n16KyeVYDys


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmkIiTIsUs0

And from their website:
FAQ: Are you selling the Lima TAM Coaches recently announced by Hornby International?
At this stage, we don't have pricing for these forthcoming models. We will visit this once pricing has been established. Please contact our team if you would like us to notify you if these become available to pre-order through Little Train Shop. Please note, these coaches aren't due for release until January-March 2021.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
While some here are complaining about the detail I suspect you aren't the target market, of course it could be better and of course the price could be more, if it was put out by Hornby/Lima with some 12 wheelers in a train set what a great way to promote the hobby and get younger (Australian) people who have an interest into modelling.

Horses for courses.
ssaunders
I agree completely.

Of course it could be more expensive and aimed competitively at the Eureka C38.  This is not the case.

I see it as an entry level model of acceptable detail and quality aimed at the entry level or Plonk n Play modeller.

It is and will be an interesting exercise to help the less experienced or novice modeller get an introduction to model railways.  Will it succeed?  Time will tell.

Happy modelling,

John
  DJPeters Deputy Commissioner

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/lima-h0-1-87.html

Well well well ....
speedemon08
Yes Hornby will be distributing this ARM model as a Lima loco in Britain and Europe they have said so could it be they are rethinking about again bringing out Australian models but with better mechs etc.  Some of their other brands have locomotives that ran in Australia, the Chinese made Spanish 316 diesels are are very nice model of a 44 or a 930 and Hornby are renowned for placing one brand of models into another brand they own, ranges.  Lima and Rivarossi both have crossover models and probably some of the other brands they have are the same.




  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

The information supplied so far has the 38 as having kadee-style knuckle couplers, but the passenger cars as having Lima-style couplings.  Is this correct?
  M636C Minister for Railways

The information supplied so far has the 38 as having kadee-style knuckle couplers, but the passenger cars as having Lima-style couplings.  Is this correct?
gunzel42
That is what the photos show.

It is most likely that the locomotive will have a standard NEM plug-in coupler which can be changed between the Kadee and the standard European coupler (and probably most other couplers...). The passenger cars appear to have fixed standard European couplers (as they have had in the past).

This allows the 38 to haul the passenger cars or, with a change of coupler, knuckle fitted vehicles.

Peter
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The cars will prob have NEM sockets like the 38. the photos are of the original lima examples with lima couplers.  they are not stupid.

Regards,
David Head
  M636C Minister for Railways

The cars will prob have NEM sockets like the 38. the photos are of the original lima examples with lima couplers.  they are not stupid.

Regards,
David Head
dthead
However, the photo of the locomotive coupled to the three cars, although small, does show the 38 fitted with a Lima type (standard European) coupler. Given that this option is available, they may not have retooled the passenger cars for interchangeable couplers.

Peter
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The cars will prob have NEM sockets like the 38. the photos are of the original lima examples with lima couplers.  they are not stupid.

Regards,
David Head
However, the photo of the locomotive coupled to the three cars, although small, does show the 38 fitted with a Lima type (standard European) coupler. Given that this option is available, they may not have retooled the passenger cars for interchangeable couplers.

Peter
M636C

Well they'l experiance a lack of sales if that was the case. Still think old lima stock used, and the 38 might  have nem sockets.
  gunzel42 Locomotive Driver

The cars will prob have NEM sockets like the 38. the photos are of the original lima examples with lima couplers.  they are not stupid.

Regards,
David Head
However, the photo of the locomotive coupled to the three cars, although small, does show the 38 fitted with a Lima type (standard European) coupler. Given that this option is available, they may not have retooled the passenger cars for interchangeable couplers.

Peter

Well they'l experiance a lack of sales if that was the case. Still think old lima stock used, and the 38 might  have nem sockets.
dthead
It looks more like a Kadee type coupling on the 38 and Lima couplings on the passenger cars.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
The cars will prob have NEM sockets like the 38. the photos are of the original lima examples with lima couplers.  they are not stupid.

Regards,
David Head
However, the photo of the locomotive coupled to the three cars, although small, does show the 38 fitted with a Lima type (standard European) coupler. Given that this option is available, they may not have retooled the passenger cars for interchangeable couplers.

Peter

Well they'l experiance a lack of sales if that was the case. Still think old lima stock used, and the 38 might  have nem sockets.
It looks more like a Kadee type coupling on the 38 and Lima couplings on the passenger cars.
gunzel42
Kadee on the 38, hook couplers on the coaches. I can see it on the zoomed in pic....
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
sigh, the pghoto you sll see ar ethe original Lima coaches. Th e updated one, wil be  better.

BUT

Saw  oneof these 38's today at Trainworld. It ran nice and smooth, no lima pancake motor. flanges - fantastic. kadee type couple on the back - yep.


But
tender is along for the ride, so no extra wheel pickups whatsoever.

WOW

the tender is a fixed wheelbase 8 wheeler with lots os sidplay - it is not a bogie tender with FIXED sideframes pretending to be bogies. WOW !! ( now who makes 378 tender bogies for sale )  this will not go  around sharp track I thinks. Will test that   later....

But it;s a  starter  loco not for the serious modeller. Truly the case.


That's my obserations. WOuld I buy one? Yes - have I no ( someoneone did but one for me today for Christmas )

Will it satisfy the  modeller of high quality - no - never - not the market they are going for.


Regards,
David Head
  a6et Minister for Railways

sigh, the pghoto you sll see ar ethe original Lima coaches. Th e updated one, wil be  better.

BUT

Saw  oneof these 38's today at Trainworld. It ran nice and smooth, no lima pancake motor. flanges - fantastic. kadee type couple on the back - yep.


But
tender is along for the ride, so no extra wheel pickups whatsoever.

WOW

the tender is a fixed wheelbase 8 wheeler with lots os sidplay - it is not a bogie tender with FIXED sideframes pretending to be bogies. WOW !! ( now who makes 378 tender bogies for sale )  this will not go  around sharp track I thinks. Will test that   later....

But it;s a  starter  loco not for the serious modeller. Truly the case.


That's my obserations. WOuld I buy one? Yes - have I no ( someoneone did but one for me today for Christmas )

Will it satisfy the  modeller of high quality - no - never - not the market they are going for.


Regards,
David Head
dthead
Daid, thanks for the mini report.  The aspect re the tender is incredible/ a bogie that's not a bogie!!!

I said in an earlier post. The sorrow for me is that given the work that had gone into developing the model how much harder would it have been to have researched the 38cl and brought out a model that is better replicates the real locomotive?  While this is an entry level model, there is some aspects with it that are quite ok, but doing the model as it is, is really a huge disappointment.

Would Hornby/Lima have produced a similar quality model of British rail high profile steam loco's such as the Gresley's, Britannia's and other BR main line exp loco's?

Had the 38cl model been done more correctly & in line with some of the models coming out of China, even at a bit higher price, they could have captured a very much broader market.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Had the 38 cl model been done more correctly & in line with some of the models coming out of China, even at a bit higher price, they could have captured a very much broader market.

Are you saying that somehow Hornby could have a model like the Eureka model made at a lower price than Eureka could?

And if the price was higher, why would they sell more models?

They may sell many more simply because the price is lower.  There may be a market for these just as there was in the 1980s probably among people who don't read Railpage....

Peter
  ajbrown Junior Train Controller

I can't find anything major that displeases me with it. Sure, the tender bogie arrangement is not what we are used to, but that's going to be easy to modify .... as I'm sure long time modellers will agree. For the newbies, videos show it as handling Number 2 radius Peco/Hornby curves.

Given that the only other currently available 38 model is the Eureka one, perhaps those wanting museum perfect models should tell Eureka to drop their price to $300 ? Impossible considering its initial construction cost.
You will never get museum quality models at $2.00 Shop prices.

For the entry level market I find it to be a very good model, accurately depicting a 38 class, and ideal for both standards of modellers. And it runs well too!

Allan Brown
  K160 Minister for Railways

Location: Bendigo
At the end of the day the company was never claiming to produce a 38-class to PSM standards but something at the other end of the scale. Given the hobby needs models at affordable pricing to get newbies in it could be just what the hobby needs. Wonder if they they will do something Victorian....

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