Standard Gauge VLocity

 
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
What do the CAFs have that the VLo/Explo designs not have?

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  route14 Chief Commissioner

Diesel / catenary bi-mode.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

What do the CAFs have that the VLo/Explo designs not have?
james.au

1. diesel electric traction instead of diesel hydraulic
2. They can run on the overhead in Sydney.
3. The xplorer / vlo has 2 engines per carriage whereas the new regional trains have 2 engines per 3 carriages.
4. The new CAF doesn't have a smoke stack where a window should be.
5. Aluminium alloy instead of stainless steel construction.
6. A single 6 car configuration in addition to a 3 car configuration.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

What do the CAFs have that the VLo/Explo designs not have?

1. diesel electric traction instead of diesel hydraulic
2. They can run on the overhead in Sydney.
3. The xplorer / vlo has 2 engines per carriage whereas the new regional trains have 2 engines per 3 carriages.
4. The new CAF doesn't have a smoke stack where a window should be.
5. Aluminium alloy instead of stainless steel construction.
6. A single 6 car configuration in addition to a 3 car configuration.
simstrain
Any idea what these new CAF trains will weigh?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

VLocity have one engine per car.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

There’s nothing new about diesel-electric for railcars. One 1928 example (1950s for the purist):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_Electric_railmotor_(VR)


One reason for diesel-hydraulic (and other parts) is commonality with the current VLocitys.

The only significant sections that electric traction could currently be used in Victoria are Sunshine – Sunbury (26 km) and Melbourne – Pakenham (58 km), about 7% of the total route mileage and none of it on the SG. Hardly worth the unnecessary weight and extra maintenance of dual-mode. Any future electrification is likely to be 25 kV AC, although presumably the CAF design could be upgraded to run on both voltages.

For clarity, the VLocity has only one prime mover per carriage. Failure of one engine in a 3-car set means 66% power.  2 engines per 3 carriages means only 50% power in the event of an engine failure
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

VLocity have one engine per car.
route14

It has 2 engines per car. One for driving the train and one for generating electricity.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Any idea what these new CAF trains will weigh?
Duncs

Probably a lot less then the Xplorer's 57 tonnes per carriage. I'm not sure how much the vlocity weighs and maybe someone can provide that information. One of the carriages is a trailer on the new CAF fleet as well.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

There’s nothing new about diesel-electric for railcars. One 1928 example (1950s for the purist):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_Electric_railmotor_(VR)


One reason for diesel-hydraulic (and other parts) is commonality with the current VLocitys.

The only significant sections that electric traction could currently be used in Victoria are Sunshine – Sunbury (26km) and Melbourne – Pakenham (58 km), about 7% of the total route mileage and none of it on the SG. Hardly worth the unnecessary weight and extra maintenance of dual-mode. Any future electrification is likely to be 25 kV AC, although presumably the CAF design could be upgraded to run on both voltages.

For clarity, the VLocity has only one prime mover per carriage. Failure of one engine in a 3-car set means 66% power.  2 engines per 3 carriages means only 50% power in the event of an engine failure
kitchgp

I'm not suggesting bi modal. I understand that isn't viable in Victoria. Diesel electric traction however would be significantly more efficient then the hydraulic transmission and it would allow faster acceleration. The commonality thing is silly since it would use an electric motor similar to most of the suburban trains on the network and electric traction motors and generators can easily be retrofitted to all vlocities over time making them use significantly less fuel.

There might only be one prime mover per carriage but there is also 1 generator motor per carriage. The new NSW regional fleet will not have this generator motor period and only 2 prime movers per 3 car set. 4 per 6 car set. With it's lighter weight and not being connected to a transmission and it's vibrations they should also be much more reliable.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Any idea what these new CAF trains will weigh?

Probably a lot less then the Xplorer's 57 tonnes per carriage. I'm not sure how much the vlocity weighs and maybe someone can provide that information. One of the carriages is a trailer on the new CAF fleet as well.
simstrain
When indoubt simstrain, get an appointment with Dr Google...........

https://www.vlinecars.com/2019/02/vlocity-train-weight.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity

BigShunter.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

When indoubt simstrain, get an appointment with Dr Google...........

https://www.vlinecars.com/2019/02/vlocity-train-weight.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V/Line_VLocity

BigShunter.
BigShunter
The wiki doesn't have the weight and I used the Xplorer's weight because I suspected it wouldn't have been too much different from the vlocities and it turns out I was right.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Interesting that it partially attributed the extra weight to more seats.  If the seats weren't there the same space would have allowed more standees than seated passengers in the same area, and the train would end up with higher laiden weight.
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
VLocity have one engine per car.
route14

It has 2 engines per car. One for driving the train and one for generating electricity.
"simstrain"

Since we are being so enamoured with your superior CAF, how about you actually consider performance?

VLO 3 car set, 3 x 559kw engines, plus  3 auxiliary for lights, heat, cool etc. Top speed 210kph, de-scaled to 160kph

CAF 3 car set, 2 x 523kw engines, For everything Full Stop.  Top speed 160 kph (desiel mode), 121kph (electric mode).

I wonder which I'd rather climb hills.

cheers
John
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW

VLO 3 car set, --- Top speed 210kph, de-scaled to 160kph
justarider

Ive always had a problem with this sort of thinking.  Nowhere in the country can a train do 210kph so why do we get trains that are capable of this and derate them?  Why not get a train that is designed to do the track speed that it has to work with instead of pretend that track upgrades are going to happen in the life of the train?  Surely the extra speed rating costs extra in the design?
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last

VLO 3 car set, --- Top speed 210kph, de-scaled to 160kph
"justarider"

Ive always had a problem with this sort of thinking.  Nowhere in the country can a train do 210kph so why do we get trains that are capable of this and derate them?  Why not get a train that is designed to do the track speed that it has to work with instead of pretend that track upgrades are going to happen in the life of the train?  Surely the extra speed rating costs extra in the design?
"james.au"

Why indeed !
So that a VLO can do 160kph in an easy canter, wheras the CAF will be absolutely busting a gut. That costs fuel big time.

My car can do 200kph according to the book. Do I ever? Of course not.

cheers
John
  route14 Chief Commissioner

By derating it I assume it means regearing it with a lower top speed, in doing so you get a higher acceleration at lower speed, so nothing goes waste really.  Although in my view it would have been better that the transition speed for the third gear be set at around 115 km/h as opposed to 130 so when the line speed is 130 the engine would be running in the low RAV range of the third gear instead of in the high RAV range of the second gear.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

VLocity have one engine per car.

It has 2 engines per car. One for driving the train and one for generating electricity.

Since we are being so enamoured with your superior CAF, how about you actually consider performance?

VLO 3 car set, 3 x 559kw engines, plus  3 auxiliary for lights, heat, cool etc. Top speed 210kph, de-scaled to 160kph

CAF 3 car set, 2 x 523kw engines, For everything Full Stop.  Top speed 160 kph (desiel mode), 121kph (electric mode).

I wonder which I'd rather climb hills.

cheers
John
justarider

Not sure where you got your 523kw engine from. The engine in the CAF is a 22 litre MTU unit producing 700kw. The CAF carriages are lighter and more likely to be closer to 40-45 tonne rather then the 56-60 of the xplorer / vlocity. The CAF unit is using an electric motor which makes it better for climbing hills. The vlocity and the new CAF are or will be rated for 160km/h in service operation even in electric mode for the CAF. As for the actual top speed of the CAF we do not know yet what it is capable of.

EDIT: I forgot about regenerative braking and the battery packs which means the CAF can accelerate without the power pack revving to the same levels as the old xplorer and vlocity.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

My point is that victoria really should have looked in to using similar technology on the vlocity design using Bombarder technology to make these services even more viable
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
Not sure where you got your 523kw engine from. The engine in the CAF is a 22 litre MTU unit producing over 700kw. The CAF carriages are lighter and more likely to be closer to 40-45 tonne rather then the 56-60 of the xplorer / vlocity. The CAF unit is using an electric motor which makes it better for climbing hills. The vlocity and the new CAF are or will be rated for 160km/h in service operation even in electric mode for the CAF. As for the actual top speed of the CAF we do not know yet what it is capable of.

EDIT: I forgot about regenerative braking and the battery packs which means the CAF can accelerate without the power pack revving to the same levels as the old xplorer and vlocity.
simstrain


Best check with those using CAF elsewhere, for example in UK the acronym CAF has quickly earned a reputation of Cheap As F**k...
  justarider Deputy Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
VLocity have one engine per car.

It has 2 engines per car. One for driving the train and one for generating electricity.

Since we are being so enamoured with your superior CAF, how about you actually consider performance?

VLO 3 car set, 3 x 559kw engines, plus  3 auxiliary for lights, heat, cool etc. Top speed 210kph, de-scaled to 160kph

CAF 3 car set, 2 x 523kw engines, For everything Full Stop.  Top speed 160 kph (desiel mode), 121kph (electric mode).

I wonder which I'd rather climb hills.

cheers
John
"justarider"

Not sure where you got your 523kw engine from. The engine in the CAF is a 22 litre MTU unit producing over 700kw. The CAF carriages are lighter and more likely to be closer to 40-45 tonne rather then the 56-60 of the xplorer / vlocity. The CAF unit is using an electric motor which makes it better for climbing hills. The vlocity and the new CAF are or will be rated for 160km/h in service operation even in electric mode for the CAF. As for the actual top speed of the CAF we do not know yet what it is capable of.

EDIT: I forgot about regenerative braking and the battery packs which means the CAF can accelerate without the power pack revving to the same levels as the old xplorer and vlocity.
"simstrain"

Oops sorry @Sim, I meant CAF are 390kw - I mis-read the bhp on the wiki description of the deisel Civity.

I am impressed that NSW version has opted for the 700kw version. Shoe horning in an engine that is twice the size the car was designed for is such a good idea. Will be interesting to see how that works.

Also according to wiki, CAF are 50 tonne. I will also conjecture they will be heavier with the big engine and by-mode. The difference with VLO is less than you want to hear.

As to acceleration of VLO, you seem to be a rare complainant.

cheers
John
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The british civity's are not the same as the spec we are getting. The NSW trains are wider for a start and I also suspect taller. The 22 litre easily fits underneath the floor and it isn't being shoe horned in as you suggest. All up it weighs less then the prime mover and generator in a single xplorer/vlocity unit. In fact I think it might even be lighter then the qsk19 by itself.

Check out the hybrid power pack section at this link. https://www.mtu-solutions.com/na/en/applications/rail/railcar-powerpacks.html

I'm not saying the Vlo's are slow but electric trains always accelerate faster and these trains are electric trains with a diesel generator and batteries.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I'm not suggesting that victoria should have purchased the CAF. I'm suggesting that they should have looked more intently into this power unit / hybrid setup or if there is a cummins alternative.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ji95_pTZnc
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The solar train in Byron Bay is a perfect example of how you can modernise older rolling stock. They replaced the transmission with an electric motor and removed one of the engines from the 620 class.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Not sure where you got your 523kw engine from. The engine in the CAF is a 22 litre MTU unit producing over 700kw. The CAF carriages are lighter and more likely to be closer to 40-45 tonne rather then the 56-60 of the xplorer / vlocity. The CAF unit is using an electric motor which makes it better for climbing hills. The vlocity and the new CAF are or will be rated for 160km/h in service operation even in electric mode for the CAF. As for the actual top speed of the CAF we do not know yet what it is capable of.

EDIT: I forgot about regenerative braking and the battery packs which means the CAF can accelerate without the power pack revving to the same levels as the old xplorer and vlocity.


Best check with those using CAF elsewhere, for example in UK the acronym CAF has quickly earned a reputation of Cheap As F**k...
Greensleeves
Being made of aluminium they have crap crash standards. AMTRAK trialled an ICE set but would not purchase the same because they also have crap crash standards.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The solar train in Byron Bay is a perfect example of how you can modernise older rolling stock. They replaced the transmission with an electric motor and removed one of the engines from the 620 class.
simstrain
"Solar train" is a misnomer, it's got a diesel backup generator that often has to power it; and it only crawls along for three kilometers.

The additional problem(s) with updating old rolling stock are crash-worthiness and structural/frame issues. That's what ultimately killed any chance of refurbishment for the Victorian Railways B class.

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