Not defending CRRC but
Not just the 'local content' fluff.
We still seem too be way off topic. Wonder what else we can cover in this thread.
Lockie
Production contracts generally aren't time-based but based rather on number of units.Totally agree. The Rolling Stock situation is a bit of a debacle. Here we still have 60 and 70 year old converted carriages still running on V/Line, there are 90 life expired Comeng's running on the Met system and most of our tram network is serviced by old high floor trams. As a result we areThat Alstom employees in Ballarat have been seconded to Bombardier to work on Vlocity maintenance, which shows that there is some commitment from Government to keep Alstom ticking along long enough until they can get another order.Ah yes remember 5 years or so back a glossy booklet from DOT the Rollingstock Plan.
It is just a shame that the Department doesn't seem able to sell the case for getting a reliable pipeline of rolling stock projects on the go to the decision makers.
- No more ad hoc orders.
- A strategic long term plan and on-going acquisition of trains and trams etc to allow lower prices, manufacturers certainty, better pricing for fleet , on going employment certainty for Alsthom & Bombardier and any new comers blah ! blah !
- Also new generation regional train and new generation tram to replace A, Z, B-2.
Now 5 years plus later usual situation continues :
- Still ordereing trains in dribs and drabs viz: V/Locities and Xtraps Generation-2
- Still ordering trams at 10 a year in dribs and drabs when we need minimum 25 p.a. to meet DDA compliance by 2032
Disgracefully after 5 years plus still no spec for either the new generation regional train, or new generation tram .
A little less spin and glossy brochures full of wishy washy motherhood statements and a little more delivery from Governments.
- Refurbishing old N Type Carriages
- Spending $200 Million refurbishing old high floor trams.
- Spending Millions on refurbishing old Comeng Trains
It has also taken this state 18 years to deliver 100 6 car Xtraps into service. In contrast NSW has delivered 103 8 car Waratahs in 9 years. And those Trains are far more sophisticated then the bog standard xtrap.
As regards to Rolling stock, Victoria really needs to pull its finger out.
Michael
Those 103 Waratahs came from CRRC, virtually fully fitted out and ready to go.
Both state and federal labor want to boost manufacturing. This is in part why it's taken so long to get a program going here in Victoria. We don't have a manufacture big enough ready to go, Alstom will need a significant boost from the state government to expand its operations to allow it to deliver multiple sets every month. Ordering sets from CRRC isn't an option anymore. It has to be made here. Not just the 'local content' fluff.
With the upcoming budget being all about jobs, I wouldn't be surprised if we finally heard something. Employing a thousand or so workers to build trains and trams is a big win for the government. They are also good long term jobs if the government comes to it senses and does a 20 or 30 year contract.
We still seem too be way off topic. Wonder what else we can cover in this thread.
Lockie
This may have been covered but would it be worthwhile (in regards to city loop operations) to reinstate the city circle train from Platform 1 at Flinders Street to run, Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, back to Flinders Street.Clifton Loop is at capacity during peak, not sure there'd be much benefit to running it at all outside of that. Maybe after 10pm but I'd rather they have trains to the suburbs every 15min than run a special City Circle train.
If it ran say every 10 minutes to coincide and fit between Mernda and Hurstbridge trains, or at a frequency compatible with both Mernda/Hurstbridge trains, this would help improve the frequency and speed of connections for passengers who need to interchange. Also if Frankston- Cragieburn through the loop as a direct line ends up happening and once Metro Tunnel is finished this will permanently restore a useful Parliament to Flinders Street link (which is only possible currently for AM services and weekend services on the northern group). It would be a unique connection as no other train would be running direct from Parliament to Flinders Street.
I see your point, but I see the two as seperate matters. I too want trains at least every 15 minutes on all lines at all times of the day but think also a city circle train, even just at off peak times would be beneficial as for the reasons I mentioned.This may have been covered but would it be worthwhile (in regards to city loop operations) to reinstate the city circle train from Platform 1 at Flinders Street to run, Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, back to Flinders Street.Clifton Loop is at capacity during peak, not sure there'd be much benefit to running it at all outside of that. Maybe after 10pm but I'd rather they have trains to the suburbs every 15min than run a special City Circle train.
If it ran say every 10 minutes to coincide and fit between Mernda and Hurstbridge trains, or at a frequency compatible with both Mernda/Hurstbridge trains, this would help improve the frequency and speed of connections for passengers who need to interchange. Also if Frankston- Cragieburn through the loop as a direct line ends up happening and once Metro Tunnel is finished this will permanently restore a useful Parliament to Flinders Street link (which is only possible currently for AM services and weekend services on the northern group). It would be a unique connection as no other train would be running direct from Parliament to Flinders Street.
Impossible during peak and barley possible during off peak. Serves little to no benifet.I see your point, but I see the two as seperate matters. I too want trains at least every 15 minutes on all lines at all times of the day but think also a city circle train, even just at off peak times would be beneficial as for the reasons I mentioned.This may have been covered but would it be worthwhile (in regards to city loop operations) to reinstate the city circle train from Platform 1 at Flinders Street to run, Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, back to Flinders Street.Clifton Loop is at capacity during peak, not sure there'd be much benefit to running it at all outside of that. Maybe after 10pm but I'd rather they have trains to the suburbs every 15min than run a special City Circle train.
If it ran say every 10 minutes to coincide and fit between Mernda and Hurstbridge trains, or at a frequency compatible with both Mernda/Hurstbridge trains, this would help improve the frequency and speed of connections for passengers who need to interchange. Also if Frankston- Cragieburn through the loop as a direct line ends up happening and once Metro Tunnel is finished this will permanently restore a useful Parliament to Flinders Street link (which is only possible currently for AM services and weekend services on the northern group). It would be a unique connection as no other train would be running direct from Parliament to Flinders Street.
Not much benefit now, but it would fill the gap if the Northern an Caulfield loops are ever reconfigured. Not sure how many passengers such a service would carry, but that becomes hard to predict with all the changes that would have happened by then (MM1, Caulfield and Northern loop reconfiguration. possibly Burnley group running permanently anti clockwise, and who knows what else).Impossible during peak and barley possible during off peak. Serves little to no benifet.I see your point, but I see the two as seperate matters. I too want trains at least every 15 minutes on all lines at all times of the day but think also a city circle train, even just at off peak times would be beneficial as for the reasons I mentioned.This may have been covered but would it be worthwhile (in regards to city loop operations) to reinstate the city circle train from Platform 1 at Flinders Street to run, Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, back to Flinders Street.Clifton Loop is at capacity during peak, not sure there'd be much benefit to running it at all outside of that. Maybe after 10pm but I'd rather they have trains to the suburbs every 15min than run a special City Circle train.
If it ran say every 10 minutes to coincide and fit between Mernda and Hurstbridge trains, or at a frequency compatible with both Mernda/Hurstbridge trains, this would help improve the frequency and speed of connections for passengers who need to interchange. Also if Frankston- Cragieburn through the loop as a direct line ends up happening and once Metro Tunnel is finished this will permanently restore a useful Parliament to Flinders Street link (which is only possible currently for AM services and weekend services on the northern group). It would be a unique connection as no other train would be running direct from Parliament to Flinders Street.
Mernda is likely to go to a 10 minute frequency come December. This gives the Clifton Hill - FSS and the anti clockwise loop run a 7 minute inter peak frequency. Once the Greensborough Upgrade is complete next year, this will reduce to 5 minutes. Some of the most frequent services in the inner core. If the Northern Loop is fixed to run clockwise, this solves the Parliament - FSS connection.
Having a service that only runs off peak only adds to network complexities and reduces usability.
Im not sure what a city circle train would solve?
Lockie
Can't see a City Circle service being beneficial at all - even after the loop reconfiguration. The only passengers using such a service would be those going from Parliament to Flinders Street (assuming Burnely Group runs anti-clockwise around the loop while Clifton Hill runs clockwise).Not much benefit now, but it would fill the gap if the Northern an Caulfield loops are ever reconfigured. Not sure how many passengers such a service would carry, but that becomes hard to predict with all the changes that would have happened by then (MM1, Caulfield and Northern loop reconfiguration. possibly Burnley group running permanently anti clockwise, and who knows what else).Impossible during peak and barley possible during off peak. Serves little to no benifet.I see your point, but I see the two as seperate matters. I too want trains at least every 15 minutes on all lines at all times of the day but think also a city circle train, even just at off peak times would be beneficial as for the reasons I mentioned.This may have been covered but would it be worthwhile (in regards to city loop operations) to reinstate the city circle train from Platform 1 at Flinders Street to run, Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, back to Flinders Street.Clifton Loop is at capacity during peak, not sure there'd be much benefit to running it at all outside of that. Maybe after 10pm but I'd rather they have trains to the suburbs every 15min than run a special City Circle train.
If it ran say every 10 minutes to coincide and fit between Mernda and Hurstbridge trains, or at a frequency compatible with both Mernda/Hurstbridge trains, this would help improve the frequency and speed of connections for passengers who need to interchange. Also if Frankston- Cragieburn through the loop as a direct line ends up happening and once Metro Tunnel is finished this will permanently restore a useful Parliament to Flinders Street link (which is only possible currently for AM services and weekend services on the northern group). It would be a unique connection as no other train would be running direct from Parliament to Flinders Street.
Mernda is likely to go to a 10 minute frequency come December. This gives the Clifton Hill - FSS and the anti clockwise loop run a 7 minute inter peak frequency. Once the Greensborough Upgrade is complete next year, this will reduce to 5 minutes. Some of the most frequent services in the inner core. If the Northern Loop is fixed to run clockwise, this solves the Parliament - FSS connection.
Having a service that only runs off peak only adds to network complexities and reduces usability.
Im not sure what a city circle train would solve?
Lockie
Hard to say, because who knows what the interchange patterns will become when far more passengers are required to make train changes to reach their destination. Not talking about where you CAN swap trains, but where people WILL swap trains. Will probably depend on walking distance required, how well services connect at different locations. congestion, etc.Can't see a City Circle service being beneficial at all - even after the loop reconfiguration. The only passengers using such a service would be those going from Parliament to Flinders Street (assuming Burnely Group runs anti-clockwise around the loop while Clifton Hill runs clockwise).Not much benefit now, but it would fill the gap if the Northern an Caulfield loops are ever reconfigured. Not sure how many passengers such a service would carry, but that becomes hard to predict with all the changes that would have happened by then (MM1, Caulfield and Northern loop reconfiguration. possibly Burnley group running permanently anti clockwise, and who knows what else).Impossible during peak and barley possible during off peak. Serves little to no benifet.I see your point, but I see the two as seperate matters. I too want trains at least every 15 minutes on all lines at all times of the day but think also a city circle train, even just at off peak times would be beneficial as for the reasons I mentioned.This may have been covered but would it be worthwhile (in regards to city loop operations) to reinstate the city circle train from Platform 1 at Flinders Street to run, Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, back to Flinders Street.Clifton Loop is at capacity during peak, not sure there'd be much benefit to running it at all outside of that. Maybe after 10pm but I'd rather they have trains to the suburbs every 15min than run a special City Circle train.
If it ran say every 10 minutes to coincide and fit between Mernda and Hurstbridge trains, or at a frequency compatible with both Mernda/Hurstbridge trains, this would help improve the frequency and speed of connections for passengers who need to interchange. Also if Frankston- Cragieburn through the loop as a direct line ends up happening and once Metro Tunnel is finished this will permanently restore a useful Parliament to Flinders Street link (which is only possible currently for AM services and weekend services on the northern group). It would be a unique connection as no other train would be running direct from Parliament to Flinders Street.
Mernda is likely to go to a 10 minute frequency come December. This gives the Clifton Hill - FSS and the anti clockwise loop run a 7 minute inter peak frequency. Once the Greensborough Upgrade is complete next year, this will reduce to 5 minutes. Some of the most frequent services in the inner core. If the Northern Loop is fixed to run clockwise, this solves the Parliament - FSS connection.
Having a service that only runs off peak only adds to network complexities and reduces usability.
Im not sure what a city circle train would solve?
Lockie
I sometimes dispair that comments about Melbourne transport actually come from a local knowledge.Hard to say, because who knows what the interchange patterns will become when far more passengers are required to make train changes to reach their destination. Not talking about where you CAN swap trains, but where people WILL swap trains. Will probably depend on walking distance required, how well services connect at different locations. congestion, etc.Not much benefit now, but it would fill the gap if the Northern an Caulfield loops are ever reconfigured. Not sure how many passengers such a service would carry, but that becomes hard to predict with all the changes that would have happened by then (MM1, Caulfield and Northern loop reconfiguration. possibly Burnley group running permanently anti clockwise, and who knows what else).Can't see a City Circle service being beneficial at all - even after the loop reconfiguration. The only passengers using such a service would be those going from Parliament to Flinders Street (assuming Burnely Group runs anti-clockwise around the loop while Clifton Hill runs clockwise).
It is not that W class re-builds were banned they are still proceding at Bendigo. Rather the dreaded Nanny State "Safety Nazis" decreed that although many had been in service for over a decade were safe one day, but un-safe the next. So the frequency was cut, and as for everything in transport other than MM1 and removing "dangerous and congested level crossings" everything else has slowed to speed of a crippled snail.I sometimes dispair that comments about Melbourne transport actually come from a local knowledge.Hard to say, because who knows what the interchange patterns will become when far more passengers are required to make train changes to reach their destination. Not talking about where you CAN swap trains, but where people WILL swap trains. Will probably depend on walking distance required, how well services connect at different locations. congestion, etc.Not much benefit now, but it would fill the gap if the Northern an Caulfield loops are ever reconfigured. Not sure how many passengers such a service would carry, but that becomes hard to predict with all the changes that would have happened by then (MM1, Caulfield and Northern loop reconfiguration. possibly Burnley group running permanently anti clockwise, and who knows what else).Can't see a City Circle service being beneficial at all - even after the loop reconfiguration. The only passengers using such a service would be those going from Parliament to Flinders Street (assuming Burnely Group runs anti-clockwise around the loop while Clifton Hill runs clockwise).
Obviously those advocating a train from Parliament to Flinders St ( or anywhere else in the CBD) have not heard of trams, nor the city circle tram.
cheers
John
Sometimes I despair at the idiot comments that people make on here.I sometimes dispair that comments about Melbourne transport actually come from a local knowledge.Hard to say, because who knows what the interchange patterns will become when far more passengers are required to make train changes to reach their destination. Not talking about where you CAN swap trains, but where people WILL swap trains. Will probably depend on walking distance required, how well services connect at different locations. congestion, etc.Not much benefit now, but it would fill the gap if the Northern an Caulfield loops are ever reconfigured. Not sure how many passengers such a service would carry, but that becomes hard to predict with all the changes that would have happened by then (MM1, Caulfield and Northern loop reconfiguration. possibly Burnley group running permanently anti clockwise, and who knows what else).Can't see a City Circle service being beneficial at all - even after the loop reconfiguration. The only passengers using such a service would be those going from Parliament to Flinders Street (assuming Burnely Group runs anti-clockwise around the loop while Clifton Hill runs clockwise).
Obviously those advocating a train from Parliament to Flinders St ( or anywhere else in the CBD) have not heard of trams, nor the city circle tram.
cheers
John
Really @Lockie what a strange collection of examples.I sometimes dispair that comments about Melbourne transport actually come from a local knowledge.Sometimes I despair at the idiot comments that people make on here.
Obviously those advocating a train from Parliament to Flinders St ( or anywhere else in the CBD) have not heard of trams, nor the city circle tram.
cheers
John
Obviously those advocating catching a tram from Parliament have not looked at the timetable. Line 35 City Circle Tram - Parliament Stop 10 - Flinders Street Station Stop 5, Run time 16 minutes. Every 20 minutes. Collins Street Routes involve walking a city block to Flinders Street.
Train run time 3 minutes, every 5 - 7 minutes on a weekend.
Cant imagine why people would want to use the train and why this connection should be available 7 days a week. Not everyone is using the loop stations to enter or exit the city. Provisions needs to be made for people using the stations to move around the city or access tram services. Such as travelling from Parliament to Flinders Street to access St Kilda Road Trams. Parliament to Melbourne Central to access Elizabeth Street Trams, or Southern Cross to access Docklands trams.
Lockie
Can't see anyone swapping at Flinders Street unless coming off the metro tunnel route - even then there are very few passengers who would be travelling to Parliament. Most passengers travelling to/from Parliament would be swapping at Richmond, Caulfield, Melbourne Central, North Melbourne and Southern Cross to avoid any detours.Hard to say, because who knows what the interchange patterns will become when far more passengers are required to make train changes to reach their destination. Not talking about where you CAN swap trains, but where people WILL swap trains. Will probably depend on walking distance required, how well services connect at different locations. congestion, etc.Can't see a City Circle service being beneficial at all - even after the loop reconfiguration. The only passengers using such a service would be those going from Parliament to Flinders Street (assuming Burnely Group runs anti-clockwise around the loop while Clifton Hill runs clockwise).Not much benefit now, but it would fill the gap if the Northern an Caulfield loops are ever reconfigured. Not sure how many passengers such a service would carry, but that becomes hard to predict with all the changes that would have happened by then (MM1, Caulfield and Northern loop reconfiguration. possibly Burnley group running permanently anti clockwise, and who knows what else).Impossible during peak and barley possible during off peak. Serves little to no benifet.I see your point, but I see the two as seperate matters. I too want trains at least every 15 minutes on all lines at all times of the day but think also a city circle train, even just at off peak times would be beneficial as for the reasons I mentioned.This may have been covered but would it be worthwhile (in regards to city loop operations) to reinstate the city circle train from Platform 1 at Flinders Street to run, Flinders Street, Southern Cross, Flagstaff, Melbourne Central, Parliament, back to Flinders Street.Clifton Loop is at capacity during peak, not sure there'd be much benefit to running it at all outside of that. Maybe after 10pm but I'd rather they have trains to the suburbs every 15min than run a special City Circle train.
If it ran say every 10 minutes to coincide and fit between Mernda and Hurstbridge trains, or at a frequency compatible with both Mernda/Hurstbridge trains, this would help improve the frequency and speed of connections for passengers who need to interchange. Also if Frankston- Cragieburn through the loop as a direct line ends up happening and once Metro Tunnel is finished this will permanently restore a useful Parliament to Flinders Street link (which is only possible currently for AM services and weekend services on the northern group). It would be a unique connection as no other train would be running direct from Parliament to Flinders Street.
Mernda is likely to go to a 10 minute frequency come December. This gives the Clifton Hill - FSS and the anti clockwise loop run a 7 minute inter peak frequency. Once the Greensborough Upgrade is complete next year, this will reduce to 5 minutes. Some of the most frequent services in the inner core. If the Northern Loop is fixed to run clockwise, this solves the Parliament - FSS connection.
Having a service that only runs off peak only adds to network complexities and reduces usability.
Im not sure what a city circle train would solve?
Lockie
The point you have missed is that City Loop stations should not be treated as exit and entry points to the city. They need to cater to people that need to get from one side of the city to the other. Being able to move in both directions at all times is essential, not just on a weekend.Really @Lockie what a strange collection of examples.I sometimes dispair that comments about Melbourne transport actually come from a local knowledge.Sometimes I despair at the idiot comments that people make on here.
Obviously those advocating a train from Parliament to Flinders St ( or anywhere else in the CBD) have not heard of trams, nor the city circle tram.
cheers
John
Obviously those advocating catching a tram from Parliament have not looked at the timetable. Line 35 City Circle Tram - Parliament Stop 10 - Flinders Street Station Stop 5, Run time 16 minutes. Every 20 minutes. Collins Street Routes involve walking a city block to Flinders Street.
Train run time 3 minutes, every 5 - 7 minutes on a weekend.
Cant imagine why people would want to use the train and why this connection should be available 7 days a week. Not everyone is using the loop stations to enter or exit the city. Provisions needs to be made for people using the stations to move around the city or access tram services. Such as travelling from Parliament to Flinders Street to access St Kilda Road Trams. Parliament to Melbourne Central to access Elizabeth Street Trams, or Southern Cross to access Docklands trams.
Lockie
Train 3 minutes. SURE, just add another 5 minutes each end to get from the street to platforms.
13 minutes if your lucky, and then you're only at the start point for your real destination. Add another block or so walking/tram.
Want to go to FSS to catch a tram down St Kilda Rd??
Sensible people catch a tram down Bourke St or Collins ( depends where you are starting) to Swanston St.
Want to go to Melb Central, to catch the Elizabeth St tram.??
Sensible people stay on the Bourke or Collins St tram and get off at Elizabeth.
Want to go to Docklands.?.? Stay on the Bourke or Collins tram until you get there.
Circle tram works better for some odd corners of the CBD that regular train nor tram cover without an interchange or two.
Eg. cnr Flinders/Spring, Latrobe/Exhibition.
Why bag route 35 for the good that it does do.
cheers
John
)
The point you have missed is that City Loop stations should not be treated as exit and entry points to the city. They need to cater to people that need to get from one side of the city to the other. Being able to move in both directions at all times is essential, not just on a weekend.What are you on about ? the discussion was a specialised train trip from Parliament to FSS. The existing loops cover all except that bit in the PM.
Seems you don't really understand tram travel in the city. It can take 20 minutes to get from one side to the other in peak. It's basically walking pace on Collins, Bourke & Elizabeth streets during peak hour. Many people catch a train and board the outer most tram stop of the route from the CBD. This saves time and avoids some of the crush loads that are caused by people travelling one or two blocks as opposed to the whole route. (Thank you free tram zone
Strange you (use to anyway) see hundreds of people leave FSS and board St Kilda Road trams and the reverse in the evening. Same with Melbourne Central on Elizabeth street. Trams will basically empty out as people alight for the station and then fill back up with people heading further along the route home.
As humans we generally find the quickest way from A to B, commuters are happy to change services if it saves them 10 minutes.
Lockie
Only good thing about Parliment is the exit at Gordon Reserve, named after a descendant of mine.A descendant of yours? How old are you?!?
If the Northern Group was to run in a fixed direction 24/7 - is there more demand for a direct service between Parliament and Flinders Street, or between Flinders Street and Parliament?Indeed.
That should answer the question about which way the Northern Group should run.
The midday switch of loop directions means the loop momentarily operates as a single track bidirectional section. 8 minutes via the Loop into FSS then 8 minutes out. For groups with inter-peak frequency of higher than 16 minutes, which is the case for the remaining groups which still do the switch, it means a larger than usual gap will occur at the time of switch.Indeed timing is everything.
