Newcastle Waters Solar Farm - A Big Opportunity for Rail Freight

 
  Carnot Minister for Railways

An interesting proposal:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/21/australian-outback-cattle-station-to-house-worlds-largest-solar-farm-powering-singapore

Note this:
Speaking about the reasons for proposing the Newcastle Waters site, Griffin said its location was “a meeting point of a few key criteria”.

“It’s on the Adelaide to Darwin rail corridor, which is brilliant for our logistics given the enormous amount of material we’ll have to transport to the site,” he said.

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  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
And the 3,350km extension cord?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
And the 3,350km extension cord?
apw5910
Bunnings will have something that will suit.
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
I hope the cable to Singapore is more robust than the one connecting Tasmania to the mainland. A couple of serious outages over a couple of years.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Transmission losses are likely to be significant.  They're obviously factoring this in, but they'll be very high even with DC transmission.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Transmission losses are likely to be significant.  They're obviously factoring this in, but they'll be very high even with DC transmission.
Carnot
Being constructed by the green energy billionaires not for the benefit of Australia (none of the energy will be used here) but instead to export to Asia so that (as with the LNG rip-off) they don't pay a single cent of tax in this country.

We will get no domestic benefits whatsoever from this thing apart from the jobs in construction - and even then the workers could be bought in from overseas. The environmental destruction necessary to build the thousands of acres of arrays will be significant - they'll have to kill any and all wildlife that already lives there and the land won't be available for any other use. All round this is a terrible project and must not go ahead.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
An interesting proposal:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/oct/21/australian-outback-cattle-station-to-house-worlds-largest-solar-farm-powering-singapore

Note this:
Speaking about the reasons for proposing the Newcastle Waters site, Griffin said its location was “a meeting point of a few key criteria”.

“It’s on the Adelaide to Darwin rail corridor, which is brilliant for our logistics given the enormous amount of material we’ll have to transport to the site,” he said.
Carnot
3500 km undersea cable ( 4 x the current longest across the North Sea) through Indonesian waters, mmmm.

I like the part where they say, not too far south so as to increase line losses? Its only 600km from Darwin.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Being constructed by the green energy billionaires not for the benefit of Australia (none of the energy will be used here) but instead to export to Asia so that (as with the LNG rip-off) they don't pay a single cent of tax in this country.

We will get no domestic benefits whatsoever from this thing apart from the jobs in construction - and even then the workers could be bought in from overseas.
don_dunstan
Did I miss something, or did you just not read the article?

Overhead transmission lines will send the electricity generated by Sun Cable to Darwin and feed into the state’s power grid, but Griffin said two-thirds of the power would be exported to Singapore by high-voltage direct current undersea cables.
The Guardian article
From what I can see, it's nominal capacity will be 10GW, if you assume 10% losses, that still leaves 3GW for NT domestic consumption.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Overhead transmission lines will send the electricity generated by Sun Cable to Darwin and feed into the state’s power grid, but Griffin said two-thirds of the power would be exported to Singapore by high-voltage direct current undersea cables.
From what I can see, it's nominal capacity will be 10GW, if you assume 10% losses, that still leaves 3GW for NT domestic consumption.
KRviator
I didn't know someone was going to be building the world's largest aluminium smelter in Darwin because there is no way the current population will use 3GW between now and 2030, inclusive.

The NT could probably do more for reducing emissions by upgrading it Channel units to Combined cycle because from what I can work out, all their thermal fossil fuel power generation is from open cycle gas turbines, so the 1000C waste heat is just being lost. Close cycle units recover the heat to make steam and get roughly 50% more generational capacity.

If Singapore can make this work (assuming its not actually some BS), then there is no reason why solar power stations should be built in western SA, NT or even WA and power transmitted to the east coast grid and go along way to help resolve the evening peak issue. But is a 3000 HV line worth the cost for a few hours a day? Unlikely.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Overhead transmission lines will send the electricity generated by Sun Cable to Darwin and feed into the state’s power grid, but Griffin said two-thirds of the power would be exported to Singapore by high-voltage direct current undersea cables.
From what I can see, it's nominal capacity will be 10GW, if you assume 10% losses, that still leaves 3GW for NT domestic consumption.
I didn't know someone was going to be building the world's largest aluminium smelter in Darwin because there is no way the current population will use 3GW between now and 2030, inclusive.
RTT_Rules
HHmm, good point! According to the Territory Generation website, they only have 593MW installed capacity right now, with an additional 5.1MW imported from private producers.

Where is the rest going to go then?!? Or is it just PR/Marketing spin? I can't imagine they are thinking they'll lose the rest in transmission losses? Ie 6.6GW "exported" to Singapore, 0.5GW powering the Darwin region and 2.9GW considered "lost" to make up the nominal 10GW?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Being constructed by the green energy billionaires not for the benefit of Australia (none of the energy will be used here) but instead to export to Asia so that (as with the LNG rip-off) they don't pay a single cent of tax in this country.

We will get no domestic benefits whatsoever from this thing apart from the jobs in construction - and even then the workers could be bought in from overseas.
Did I miss something, or did you just not read the article?

Overhead transmission lines will send the electricity generated by Sun Cable to Darwin and feed into the state’s power grid, but Griffin said two-thirds of the power would be exported to Singapore by high-voltage direct current undersea cables.
From what I can see, it's nominal capacity will be 10GW, if you assume 10% losses, that still leaves 3GW for NT domestic consumption.
KRviator
I read the original proposal which was from a consortium headed by Mike Cannon-Brooks and the Holmes a'Court family - and in order for them to get maximum tax advantages from it not a single kilowatt was for domestic consumption - like the LNG export plants, they want to get as much tax benefit as possible which is why the thing is being constructed in the first place.

That MIGHT change between now and the actual construction but I'm guessing that the original plan of 'no domestic consumption' is still a distinct possibility due to the financial incentives for doing so.

And these things are environmentally damaging, just look at the land clearance required and resulting ugliness they inflict on the landscape - you can't tell me that the result is good for local wild-life:

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Overhead transmission lines will send the electricity generated by Sun Cable to Darwin and feed into the state’s power grid, but Griffin said two-thirds of the power would be exported to Singapore by high-voltage direct current undersea cables.
From what I can see, it's nominal capacity will be 10GW, if you assume 10% losses, that still leaves 3GW for NT domestic consumption.
I didn't know someone was going to be building the world's largest aluminium smelter in Darwin because there is no way the current population will use 3GW between now and 2030, inclusive.
HHmm, good point! According to the Territory Generation website, they only have 593MW installed capacity right now, with an additional 5.1MW imported from private producers.

Where is the rest going to go then?!? Or is it just PR/Marketing spin? I can't imagine they are thinking they'll lose the rest in transmission losses? Ie 6.6GW "exported" to Singapore, 0.5GW powering the Darwin region and 2.9GW considered "lost" to make up the nominal 10GW?
KRviator
Yeah, 600 MW installed and likely average load is half this and peak close to 500MW as the NT operates its grid in 3.5 islands so some redundancy is required for each island.

Singapore is an island of 5M people mostly in apartments so lower energy use, but alot of AC. I cannot help think that 7GW is also more than they will use normally as NSW is around 5-7GW, peaking at 9GW with a medium size aluminium smelter taking 1GW. Ok, they have likely over spec'ed to get more nominal supply for morning and evening.

I don't know, I just feel this is a BS project more belonging to 1st April.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I read the original proposal which was from a consortium headed by Mike Cannon-Brooks and the Holmes a'Court family - and in order for them to get maximum tax advantages from it not a single kilowatt was for domestic consumption - like the LNG export plants, they want to get as much tax benefit as possible which is why the thing is being constructed in the first place.

That MIGHT change between now and the actual construction but I'm guessing that the original plan of 'no domestic consumption' is still a distinct possibility due to the financial incentives for doing so.

And these things are environmentally damaging, just look at the land clearance required and resulting ugliness they inflict on the landscape - you can't tell me that the result is good for local wild-life:

don_dunstan
If people want to build a PV solar farm in Oz and export the power directly with no connection to the Oz grid, I have no issue with this. There will be work during construction and long term for locals, so salary's, taxes and other so we get some of the cake. No different to building a mine. This "proposal", which I'm calling BS on has stated they will supply the Darwin grid.

As for the solar farm and Env impact. Yeah well having seen some in arid locations like Newcastle waters it won't be the desertification depicted in the above CGI picture. Hell there is desert grass growing in and around the Dubai solar farm and this is a proper desert. Grass will still grow and I believe potentially the area can be used for limited grazing. Again we are good to clear large forests to grow stuff including houses in far more greener locations the mid way up the NT.


Anyway, I don't think this project will see the light of day so I wouldn't be concerned.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
...and the undersea cable option is dead, surprise!

...as is building it in NT, its now WA to make ammonia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-10/renewable-energy-hub-ditches-asian-cable-for-ammonia/12862916
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
...and the undersea cable option is dead, surprise!

...as is building it in NT, its now WA to make ammonia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-10/renewable-energy-hub-ditches-asian-cable-for-ammonia/12862916
RTT_Rules

Sorry was this the project to sell power between Darwin and Singapore?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
...and the undersea cable option is dead, surprise!

...as is building it in NT, its now WA to make ammonia.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-10/renewable-energy-hub-ditches-asian-cable-for-ammonia/12862916

Sorry was this the project to sell power between Darwin and Singapore?
bevans
I believe so as they say in article they were, but now going to sell ammonia.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I believe so as they say in article they were, but now going to sell ammonia.
RTT_Rules

Interesting so not cable but a pipeline?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I believe so as they say in article they were, but now going to sell ammonia.

Interesting so not cable but a pipeline?
bevans
It doesn't state it in the article that I saw, but I personally doubt it. The same issues affect a pipeline as affect a power cable, ie bad underwater terrain and dealing with the Indo govt.

Personally I don't see this project seeing the light of day in any shape or form. They could simply make H2 to sell domestically to replace gas and coal, but......
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Interesting so not cable but a pipeline?
It doesn't state it in the article that I saw, but I personally doubt it. The same issues affect a pipeline as affect a power cable, ie bad underwater terrain and dealing with the Indo govt.

Personally I don't see this project seeing the light of day in any shape or form. They could simply make H2 to sell domestically to replace gas and coal, but......
RTT_Rules
ABC News online had a story this morning about creating a solar and wind facility on the Pilbara coast to generate the electricity to extract hydrogen from sea water, then combine that with nitrogen from the air to produce ammonia. The ammonia would then be liquified and exported by ship, to be used as fuel in thermal power stations.

Sounds like there's a lot of development required before this sees the light of day.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-10/renewable-energy-hub-ditches-asian-cable-for-ammonia/12862916
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Interesting so not cable but a pipeline?
It doesn't state it in the article that I saw, but I personally doubt it. The same issues affect a pipeline as affect a power cable, ie bad underwater terrain and dealing with the Indo govt.

Personally I don't see this project seeing the light of day in any shape or form. They could simply make H2 to sell domestically to replace gas and coal, but......
ABC News online had a story this morning about creating a solar and wind facility on the Pilbara coast to generate the electricity to extract hydrogen from sea water, then combine that with nitrogen from the air to produce ammonia. The ammonia would then be liquified and exported by ship, to be used as fuel in thermal power stations.

Sounds like there's a lot of development required before this sees the light of day.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-10/renewable-energy-hub-ditches-asian-cable-for-ammonia/12862916
Lockspike
Yup

As I said before, why not just build it further south and use the hydrogen to provide Perth and Adelaide with power when the sun and wind are not generating enough. Within 10 years most of the gas power stations in SA will be approaching end of life.

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