A New Station For Melbourne’s Newest Suburb

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 14 Feb 2021 17:22
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Pakenham East station location has now been announced.

To call it a Melbourne suburb might be stretching it a little?

A New Station For Melbourne’s Newest Suburb

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Pakenham East station location has now been announced.

To call it a Melbourne suburb might be stretching it a little?

A New Station For Melbourne’s Newest Suburb
bevans
What's with the picture of the former Leongatha Railway Yard (dating back to the mid 1990's)
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

Imagine having infrastructure in place before a gaxillion houses are built, what a concept.

Also, glad to see they're still pushing the "dangerous" level crossing agenda. I guess to the idiots and those too important to wait for a mere train they are.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Pakenham East station location has now been announced.

To call it a Melbourne suburb might be stretching it a little?

A New Station For Melbourne’s Newest Suburb
What's with the picture of the former Leongatha Railway Yard (dating back to the mid 1990's)
Nightfire

A bit of fun.

Could have gone with this one?

  NSWGR8022 Chief Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Forgive the question is stupid but was there ever a station at Pakenham East anytime in history?

Will the new station be serviced by HCMT fleet for V/Line?
  L1150 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Pakenham Vic.
Forgive the question is stupid but was there ever a station at Pakenham East anytime in history?

Will the new station be serviced by HCMT fleet for V/Line?
NSWGR8022
From memory, having lived in the Berwick -  Pakenham area for about 40+ years, there is no evidence of there having been a station between Pakenham and Nar Nar Goon. My guess about your second question is that Vline will not stop at Pakenham East, only Metro trains. L1150:D
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Forgive the question is stupid but was there ever a station at Pakenham East anytime in history?

Will the new station be serviced by HCMT fleet for V/Line?
From memory, having lived in the Berwick -  Pakenham area for about 40+ years, there is no evidence of there having been a station between Pakenham and Nar Nar Goon. My guess about your second question is that Vline will not stop at Pakenham East, only Metro trains. L1150:D
L1150
V/line trains will not stop at PKE. The only point of building the station was to allow metro to terminate services here and give Vline a clear run to Pakenham. This moves all the complicate track work away from the above ground Pakenham Station to Pakenham East.

By the sounds of the information on LXRA there will be three tracks from Pakenham to Pakenham East. The third 'Bypass track' is to be used by shunting Metro trains to the Depot, freight and V/line; thus keeping the mainline clear. There is nothing on the LXRA website about three platforms at Pakenham, something that should be built to allow V/line a dedicated platform. I also cant see every service extending to Pakenham East. Post MM1 Pakenham is going to have a 5 minute peak frequency, cant see PKE needing this, even 10 minutes is pushing it. But then careful timetabling would be needed.

Lockie
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
By the sounds of the information on LXRA there will be three tracks from Pakenham to Pakenham East. The third 'Bypass track' is to be used by shunting Metro trains to the Depot, freight and V/line; thus keeping the mainline clear. There is nothing on the LXRA website about three platforms at Pakenham, something that should be built to allow V/line a dedicated platform. I also cant see every service extending to Pakenham East. Post MM1 Pakenham is going to have a 5 minute peak frequency, cant see PKE needing this, even 10 minutes is pushing it. But then careful timetabling would be needed.

Lockie

When the LXRA started to look at Pakenham seriously, there were announcements made about having a third, interchange, platform there but, with the changing scope of this project, that information has disappeared. Whether that means they've revised their plans now that Pakenham East has come into play, they're just keeping mum about the three platforms or they haven't finalised everything about Pakenham itself is unclear.

Neil

Edit: my browser is playing games with quoting previous posts
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

By the sounds of the information on LXRA there will be three tracks from Pakenham to Pakenham East. The third 'Bypass track' is to be used by shunting Metro trains to the Depot, freight and V/line; thus keeping the mainline clear. There is nothing on the LXRA website about three platforms at Pakenham, something that should be built to allow V/line a dedicated platform. I also cant see every service extending to Pakenham East. Post MM1 Pakenham is going to have a 5 minute peak frequency, cant see PKE needing this, even 10 minutes is pushing it. But then careful timetabling would be needed. Lockie


When the LXRA started to look at Pakenham seriously, there were announcements made about having a third, interchange, platform there but, with the changing scope of this project, that information has disappeared. Whether that means they've revised their plans now that Pakenham East has come into play, they're just keeping mum about the three platforms or they haven't finalised everything about Pakenham itself is unclear.

Neil

ngarner
I remember seeing renders of Pakenham when they announced the 'sky rail' this had three platforms, all of this has since disappeared and LXRA is pretty mum about it.

Without a dedicated platform some clever timetabling is going to be needed to avoid recreating the bottle neck they are trying to get rid of. If they are running a 5 minute peak frequency they are going to need more than one platform to turn services around. I guess it depends on this third track and if it is used in a peak directional fashion like Frankston. Even then, without proper fly overs it is just creating more problems than it solves.

Ideally you need seperate tracks for V/line into Pakenham with flyovers to have everything in the right place without delaying metro services to/from PKE.

Solve one mess by creating another.

Lockie
  route14 Chief Commissioner

You do have a point that PKE doesn't justify for a 5 minute frequency, but availing Pakenham as a Metro's terminus for a two-tier service isn't worth the required infrastructure and scheduling.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
As I see it, the whole point is 1) to get the complexity of the terminating facility on ground level and 2) to have the terminus station within walking distance of the new Pakenham East Yard.

Is Pakenham East going to have 3 platforms? It would make sense, as to keep the road clear for VLocities to express through.

If this is the case, then I would think Pakenham would only require 2 platforms, even with V/Line stopping there, as they are just another train stopping there and all terminating trains are now terminating at a clear road at PKE.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Moderators as this station will be a new station on the electrified pakenham Line at East pakenham should this thread NOT be under the Metro Area Topics  ?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
As I see it, the whole point is 1) to get the complexity of the terminating facility on ground level and 2) to have the terminus station within walking distance of the new Pakenham East Yard.

Is Pakenham East going to have 3 platforms? It would make sense, as to keep the road clear for VLocities to express through.

If this is the case, then I would think Pakenham would only require 2 platforms, even with V/Line stopping there, as they are just another train stopping there and all terminating trains are now terminating at a clear road at PKE.
Gman_86
Agreed Gman that this simple solution is being over thought.

Note, we can't call it PKE. That's the name of the new maintenance yards.

Yep, make Pak East a simple Metro terminus, and Pakenham a normal 2 platform thru station.

As for 3 flatforms, doesn't make any sense. Like most terminus just 2 is plenty, and as an island (eg Glen Waverly, Frankston, Werribee)
All Vline need is by-pass tracks, certainly not a platform.

cheers
John
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Agreed Gman that this simple solution is being over thought.

Note, we can't call it PKE. That's the name of the new maintenance yards.

Yep, make Pak East a simple Metro terminus, and Pakenham a normal 2 platform thru station.

As for 3 flatforms, doesn't make any sense. Like most terminus just 2 is plenty, and as an island (eg Glen Waverly, Frankston, Werribee)
All Vline need is by-pass tracks, certainly not a platform.

cheers
John
justarider
My reading of the situation is that Pakenham will have 2 platforms, no bypass track needed as metro trains will stop here just like at any other metro stop.

Between Pakenham and Pakenham East, there will be a diverge to allow VLine onto the Gippsland mainline, and Metro trains to enter the station and continue onto the depot.

  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
As for 3 flatforms, doesn't make any sense. Like most terminus just 2 is plenty, and as an island (eg Glen Waverly, Frankston, Werribee)
All Vline need is by-pass tracks, certainly not a platform.
cheers John
My reading of the situation is that Pakenham will have 2 platforms, no bypass track needed as metro trains will stop here just like at any other metro stop.

Between Pakenham and Pakenham East, there will be a diverge to allow VLine onto the Gippsland mainline, and Metro trains to enter the station and continue onto the depot.

John.Z
We are in furious agreement. I did mean that Vline by-pass Pak East, as you have drawn.

Not sure about the fly-over. A bit of overkill for just 20 down trains a day.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

We are in furious agreement. I did mean that Vline by-pass Pak East, as you have drawn.

Not sure about the fly-over. A bit of overkill for just 20 down trains a day.
justarider
Considering we know that Pakenham station will be skyrail, it is not extravagant to assume that the VLine outbound track can stay in the air a little longer to jump over the citybound metro track
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
We are in furious agreement. I did mean that Vline by-pass Pak East, as you have drawn.

Not sure about the fly-over. A bit of overkill for just 20 down trains a day.
Considering we know that Pakenham station will be skyrail, it is not extravagant to assume that the VLine outbound track can stay in the air a little longer to jump over the citybound metro track
John.Z
But that would mean the diverge is up in the air, and 2 down ramps. Getting complex again.

cheers
John
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Pakenham up in the air account grade seps two through tracks all trains, new station.

Pakenham East most likely and logical layout at grade  3 platforms centre track dead end for termianting sparks. Outside platforms Up & Down for VLP trains and sparks going to/from Stabling.

This layout works very well at several locations on the Trans Adelaide rail network now run by Keolis Downer same franchisee as runs Yarra Trams.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Pakenham up in the air account grade seps two through tracks all trains, new station.

Pakenham East most likely and logical layout at grade  3 platforms centre track dead end for termianting sparks. Outside platforms Up & Down for VLP trains and sparks going to/from Stabling.

This layout works very well at several locations on the Trans Adelaide rail network now run by Keolis Downer same franchisee as runs Yarra Trams.
kuldalai
So, it is likely that VLP trains will stop at both Pakenham AND Pakenham East.
That is so logical, not.

OR do you suggest that VLP stops at Pak East only. Yeah right, out the middle of nowhere for no purpose.
  712M Chief Commissioner

Surely a design similar to Westall would be more than enough for this location.

Platform 1 for up VLP passing through and HCMTs shunting from the depot into service.

Platform 2 centre track for terminating HCMTs from the city.

Platform 3 for down VLP passing through and HCMTs shunting to the depot out of service.

This arrangement would work fine in the AM, however the PM is a bit more complicated as there is right-hand running east of Pakenham to allow peak direction trains to use the fast track. So they would need to insert a crossover from the North line to the South line on the down side of the depot to facilitate this outside of the Metro area.

I agree that there is no point in Gippsland trains stopping at the new station, if they continue to stop at Pakenham they will have a same-platform interchange to all-stops trains to intermediate stations. Given the enhanced frequency of Metro to this station however, I believe it’s time that the pickup/set-down restrictions are implemented for Gippsland trains stopping at Pakenham to align with the rest of the network.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Looking at the V/Line map (without Pakenham East) the next station is Nar Nar Goon.



How busy is this station and is there much in the way of housing around the area?
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Looking at the V/Line map (without Pakenham East) the next station is Nar Nar Goon.



How busy is this station and is there much in the way of housing around the area?
bevans
There will be houses all around it shortly.   The layout of the new station is the $20 question.   The proximity to the maintenance depot and that trackage that includes balloon loop suggest the whole thing lacks strategic planning.   From Pakenhams high speed cross over (put in for RRL in the naughties) to the double crossovers to enter the maintenance facility, and now a turnback station. That's a lot of main line turnouts.

One would wonder why the balloon loop and a station was not designed with the one purpose to incorporate as one.  Facilitate turnbacks and being off the mainline as well   It just feels messy and expensive.   Look forward to seeing the detail.
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I wish they'd actually release more details and be more specific. If there is not going to be 3 platforms at the new Pakenham East station and regional trains will have dedicated bypass tracks like some press releases have mentioned (whatever that means in actual reality), then they would be crazy not to build a 3rd platform at Pakenham.

Yes it may become just another station for Metro, however it is frequently used as a terminating station by V/Line during incidents/obstructions and the all too frequent occupations. If the occupation is on the UP side of Dandenong then Metro still run trains from Pakenham to Dandenong. During these times a lot of V/Line services that terminate at Pakenham are required to shunt out to the yard to free up both platforms so Metro can maintain their timetable. With the yard getting pulled up there will be nowhere to shunt out too thus limiting Metro services. A 3rd platform would provide a convenient location for the V/Line service to be put aside out of the way and Metro services can run unimpeded.

Along the same lines as the above, another advantage of a 3rd Platform at Pakenham would allow for potential future SAS sweeper shuttle services from Moe or Warragul to Pakenham to allow other services to run semi-express. Then there is the ever persistent rumor of originating/terminating most Traralgon services at Pakenham.

This would be the perfect time to build it as its a clean slate, however giving previous history of not future proofing skyrail and Metro's desire to have a simple inflexible 'conveyor belt' system I won't be surprised if they stuff this whole thing up and make travel time longer and harder for regional commuters.
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf
Being a life long railfan and a rail traveler on the Eastern corridor for 30 years, it would be terrific if a few more logical details could be released  about the whole project. Never the less,the new station and associated  track designs are in good hands by the amount of robust debate and merit worthy ideas that the forum puts forward. When I am travelling to Pakenham on the train, I wont know to look out of the left or the right hand side of the train as there will be that much going on.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I wish they'd actually release more details and be more specific. If there is not going to be 3 platforms at the new Pakenham East station and regional trains will have dedicated bypass tracks like some press releases have mentioned (whatever that means in actual reality), then they would be crazy not to build a 3rd platform at Pakenham.

Yes it may become just another station for Metro, however it is frequently used as a terminating station by V/Line during incidents/obstructions and the all too frequent occupations. If the occupation is on the UP side of Dandenong then Metro still run trains from Pakenham to Dandenong. During these times a lot of V/Line services that terminate at Pakenham are required to shunt out to the yard to free up both platforms so Metro can maintain their timetable. With the yard getting pulled up there will be nowhere to shunt out too thus limiting Metro services. A 3rd platform would provide a convenient location for the V/Line service to be put aside out of the way and Metro services can run unimpeded.

Along the same lines as the above, another advantage of a 3rd Platform at Pakenham would allow for potential future SAS sweeper shuttle services from Moe or Warragul to Pakenham to allow other services to run semi-express. Then there is the ever persistent rumor of originating/terminating most Traralgon services at Pakenham.

This would be the perfect time to build it as its a clean slate, however giving previous history of not future proofing skyrail and Metro's desire to have a simple inflexible 'conveyor belt' system I won't be surprised if they stuff this whole thing up and make travel time longer and harder for regional commuters.
jakar
I take It that they found building an elevated 3rd platform cost a lot more than they were willing to spend, so they moved the suburban turnback further along at ground level.

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