I know nothing of bogie exchange in Europe but I can assure you that here in Australia it was no substitute for the uniform adoption of SG. Bogie exchanges were inefficient, slow, wasteful of rolling stock and bogies and expensive. Intolerable delays to wagons waiting bogie exchange of well over over a week were far from rare.

Bogie Exchange Generally only used in the east for services to and from the former USSR 5ft gauge network. Generally it has been replaced intermodal transfer from train to train for freight services, and is generally relegated to Passenger services.

As for Bogie Exchange here, its something that served its purpose when it was needed, and arguably still does with most recently SSR Transferring some Ex V/line? Grain Hoppers back to the Proper Gauge, however without dedicated the Facilities to do so as prior.

Any You thought I wouldn't show up when a topic such as this was being discussed

DD707,
I take it you have an alert that triggers every time the words “Broad Gauge” appear!

Interesting that this thread has evolved into discuusing
1. track condition
2. Sand

It seems to me the existence of sand is the primary reason for the continuing battle to maintain the tracks. Murray Basin is one humongous beach.
Mother nature will always win, no matter how much $$ is thrown in the wind.

Until such time as a complete laying down of solid, eternal foundations, the railways on top will just sink & shift.
SG will never overcome what 100 years of "cost effective" ( aka "el cheapo") line maintenance has failed.

I digress... Is their any evidence that concrete is any better than wood.
Could argue the damage to foundations by more modern concrete is even worse overall than replacing some rottten wood. BTW these days wood preservatives are pretty good IF they are used.

end of irrelevant distracti9n
cheers
John

One way to help counter this problem is the sleeper design. Concrete sleepers weigh anything from 230 - 300 kg depending on the sleeper and the gauge. With BG being slightly heavier. Timber is far lighter, but becoming scare and has a limited lifespan of 15 years.

So now is the time to get serious about recycled plastic sleepers. The BG version of these weighs 75kg, which is similar to timber. They last 40 years to timber's 15 years, and can be mass produced and rolled out quickly if the factory is up scaled. The pilot factory is in Mildura, but other facilities can be set up anywhere. These grain trains are not going to travel at more than 80 kph, so we are not talking about 110kph intermodal super freighters here.

Lighter weight sleepers are less of a problem on lines like these.

Interesting that this thread has evolved into discuusing
1. track condition
2. Sand

It seems to me the existence of sand is the primary reason for the continuing battle to maintain the tracks. Murray Basin is one humongous beach.
Mother nature will always win, no matter how much $$ is thrown in the wind.

Until such time as a complete laying down of solid, eternal foundations, the railways on top will just sink & shift.
SG will never overcome what 100 years of "cost effective" ( aka "el cheapo") line maintenance has failed.

I digress... Is their any evidence that concrete is any better than wood.
Could argue the damage to foundations by more modern concrete is even worse overall than replacing some rottten wood. BTW these days wood preservatives are pretty good IF they are used.

end of irrelevant distracti9n
cheers
John

For Sea Lake and Manangatang the resleepering with gauge convertable full height concrete sleepers is a start towards regauging, if regauged there is then SG equipment that can clean out the trackbed and that done the lines will then become low maintenance more so than will be the case in just resleepering with BG and the SG option makes raising the axle load to 25 tonne with a 80 kph also a feasable option.  With this only using BG sleepers the question should be being asked who is getting the kickback from the commonwealth money from this project?

So now is the time to get serious about recycled plastic sleepers. The BG version of these weighs 75kg, which is similar to timber. They last 40 years to timber's 15 years, and can be mass produced and rolled out quickly if the factory is up scaled. The pilot factory is in Mildura, but other facilities can be set up anywhere. These grain trains are not going to travel at more than 80 kph, so we are not talking about 110kph intermodal super freighters here.

Lighter weight sleepers are less of a problem on lines like these.

AND to keep the progressives happy, they are gauge convertable.

I would be curious to know what conditions the Feds placed on the $200 million they're giving to the State Govt?  Is there a watertight condition that the Sea Lake and Manangatang lines be upgraded with provision for future conversion?

Because single gauge concrete sleepers don't look very convertible to me...

Anyway, I think most people are resigned to those lines remaining BG until they are abandoned. Sad but true. Just hurry up and connect to Eaglehawk for quicker paths.

'... Just hurry up and connect to Eaglehawk for quicker paths. ...'.

So that everyone can benefit from the singling of a large section of the Bendigo 'Mainline'.

DD707,
I take it you have an alert that triggers every time the words “Broad Gauge” appear!

My Spider Senses go off, and pupils rapidly expand. Yep its Gunzel Time.

I would be curious to know what conditions the Feds placed on the $200 million they're giving to the State Govt?  Is there a watertight condition that the Sea Lake and Manangatang lines be upgraded with provision for future conversion?

Because single gauge concrete sleepers don't look very convertible to me...

Anyway, I think most people are resigned to those lines remaining BG until they are abandoned. Sad but true. Just hurry up and connect to Eaglehawk for quicker paths.

'... Just hurry up and connect to Eaglehawk for quicker paths. ...'.

So that everyone can benefit from the singling of a large section of the Bendigo 'Mainline'.

Would knock a few hours of the Qube Ultimas journey, not even kidding.

I would be curious to know what conditions the Feds placed on the $200 million they're giving to the State Govt?  Is there a watertight condition that the Sea Lake and Manangatang lines be upgraded with provision for future conversion?

Because single gauge concrete sleepers don't look very convertible to me...

Anyway, I think most people are resigned to those lines remaining BG until they are abandoned. Sad but true. Just hurry up and connect to Eaglehawk for quicker paths.

'... Just hurry up and connect to Eaglehawk for quicker paths. ...'.

So that everyone can benefit from the singling of a large section of the Bendigo 'Mainline'.

Would knock a few hours of the Qube Ultimas journey, not even kidding.

I don't think we doubt that in the slightest, just the main question of are there the paths for it going via Bendigo compared to going via Ballarat and Geelong?

May be a lot easier to crew out of Bendigo and would the Boort goods return?

I would be curious to know what conditions the Feds placed on the $200 million they're giving to the State Govt?  Is there a watertight condition that the Sea Lake and Manangatang lines be upgraded with provision for future conversion?

Because single gauge concrete sleepers don't look very convertible to me...

Anyway, I think most people are resigned to those lines remaining BG until they are abandoned. Sad but true. Just hurry up and connect to Eaglehawk for quicker paths.

'... Just hurry up and connect to Eaglehawk for quicker paths. ...'.

So that everyone can benefit from the singling of a large section of the Bendigo 'Mainline'.

Would knock a few hours of the Qube Ultimas journey, not even kidding.

I don't think we doubt that in the slightest, just the main question of are there the paths for it going via Bendigo compared to going via Ballarat and Geelong?

Well at the time the train normally runs I dont think a path would be that hard to get (2130 sign on for crew, back at Vic Dock 0500 a day and a bit later)

And for NSWGR8022, Qube run a crew from Melbourne to Ultima on the Down, rest, and then return on the next up Ultima. If they do a crew change its at Maryborough.

Also no guarentee that the Boort train will ever come back, just like those *hypothetical* 100 containers Kuldalai keeps mentioning. There is no guarentee those will go to rail if the railway goes past Bridgewater.

DD707,
Plenty of paths after 1 am.  IIRC it goes comes in on the up thru Bunbury St after midnight and heads back out before the morning rush.

DD707,
Plenty of paths after 1 am.  IIRC it goes comes in on the up thru Bunbury St after midnight and heads back out before the morning rush.

I don't know but does 0100 fit the traffic requirement efficiently ie is after 0100 a force fit because of a lack of alternative.

Is Jacinta Allan vying with Peter Batchelor as our most destructive/incompetent Transport Minister in recent years?

DD707,
Plenty of paths after 1 am.  IIRC it goes comes in on the up thru Bunbury St after midnight and heads back out before the morning rush.

I don't know but does 0100 fit the traffic requirement efficiently ie is after 0100 a force fit because of a lack of alternative.

Is Jacinta Allan vying with Peter Batchelor as our most destructive/incompetent Transport Minister in recent years?

9171/2 arrives at Ultima around 7am and leaves about 6pm, so take it as you will for why they might have the path they have now.

Re re opening Inglewood Eaglehawk now that Managatang & Sea Lake are going to stay bg for the forseeable future :

- 100 export containers a week ex Bridgewater are not hypothetical its a certainty as they go by road now at high cost and the three forwarders involved all want to use rail, so Ultima trains run overnight each way via Bridgewater and attach/detach these export containers to an existing train  at marginal cost, so all three customers benefit from much lower costs compared to road.
- Gives two routes South for broad gauge grain trains, increasing number of grain trains able to be run off both bg branches.
(More grain trains run, less grain by road and lower freight costs to grain growers )
- Gives Ultima inter modal trains a much shorter and faster route to Melbourne than via Dunolly.
- Most trains  would run overnight or late eveings  via Bendigo where there are curerntly available paths.
- Take a radical approach like all Southbund trains off both branches run via Bendigo and and all Northbound trains run via Warrenheip, and you have a circular bg operation avoiding most existing broad gauge crosses on the sole existing route via Dunolly, & Warrenheip making for faster smoother operation and train turnaround, fleet utilization. .
- Allows for early extension of VLP Eaglehawk pass services to Marong which is booming residential wise.  (Far smarter than wasting capex on a station at Raywood with a population of just 300  !!!!)
- People forget before the 2007 flood this line saw regular daily freight trains happily operating on the existing singled Bendigo line with a passenger timetable virtually the same as todays hourly off peak services, so if re opened now things will work fine.
- Medium term for Bendigo to get its promised 40 minute Off Peak frequency at least two sections of several kms will have be restored as double track.  This not only will benefit pax services but also increase freight paths especially with the the existing bi-di signalling and installation of a few more crossovers at selected locations between Clarkefield and Ravenswood.
- Inglewood - Eaglehawk is already 47kg track in long welded lengths, sleepers,  line and top is in reasonable repair and easily re-activated for around $ 30m for 50 kmh "fit for purpose" speed. Main cost element will be re-decking one bridge at Marong and replacing a few kms of flood damaged track at Bridgewater.
-  Thousands of serviceable wooden sleepers and all the required rail (107lb) readily available for nothing from the now closed North Line at Bungaree, along with five (5) sets of boom barriers.
- So on all counts its an absolute NO BRAINER not to re-activate this line and restore a valuable cross country link, and get more freight on rail and off roads, plus extend passenger services to Marong.
- talk about decison makers - ASLEEP at THE WHEEL  !!!!

Question i have with this farce is, is the decision not to standardize a political or bureaucratic one?

Mainly bureaucratic, but with political pressure originally. And today it's both that are attempting to salvage poor scoping.

I would like the Govt to release the full Deloitte report. Could be revealing and embarrassing for Govt.

Mainly bureaucratic, but with political pressure originally. And today it's both that are attempting to salvage poor scoping.

I would like the Govt to release the full Deloitte report. Could be revealing and embarrassing for Govt.

Why does that not surprise. Kinda fits the very little inside whispers i've herd over the last few months as well. Very much a department telling the minister how its going to be.

Mainly bureaucratic, but with political pressure originally. And today it's both that are attempting to salvage poor scoping.

I would like the Govt to release the full Deloitte report. Could be revealing and embarrassing for Govt.

Why does that not surprise. Kinda fits the very little inside whispers i've herd over the last few months as well. Very much a department telling the minister how its going to be.

Department or VLine?

Is Jacinta Allan vying with Peter Batchelor as our most destructive/incompetent Transport Minister in recent years?

I'll vote for Peter Batchelor because I reckon he knew he was being destructive, almost vindictively with regard mainly to the singling of the line to Bendigo and in part the Broadgauge Sleepers.
Although, I would have to say, they had a solid plan and stuck to it against some fairly stiff opposition, so well done there, even if we, nearly 20yrs later are saying it was a disaster.

Where as poor old Jacinta and her co-horts, had a half cocked up plan, the wheels fell off and they have thrown their hands in the air and said, this is all too hard to fix.
So in short Jacinta and mob probably have been more destructive on a larger scale but have no idea that they have been.

BigShunter.

at times being a rail fan is challenging isn't

Re re opening Inglewood Eaglehawk now that Managatang & Sea Lake are going to stay bg for the forseeable future :

- 100 export containers a week ex Bridgewater are not hypothetical its a certainty as they go by road now at high cost and the three forwarders involved all want to use rail, so Ultima trains run overnight each way via Bridgewater and attach/detach these export containers to an existing train  at marginal cost, so all three customers benefit from much lower costs compared to road.
- Gives two routes South for broad gauge grain trains, increasing number of grain trains able to be run off both bg branches.
(More grain trains run, less grain by road and lower freight costs to grain growers )
- Gives Ultima inter modal trains a much shorter and faster route to Melbourne than via Dunolly.
- Most trains  would run overnight or late eveings  via Bendigo where there are curerntly available paths.
- Take a radical approach like all Southbund trains off both branches run via Bendigo and and all Northbound trains run via Warrenheip, and you have a circular bg operation avoiding most existing broad gauge crosses on the sole existing route via Dunolly, & Warrenheip making for faster smoother operation and train turnaround, fleet utilization. .
- Allows for early extension of VLP Eaglehawk pass services to Marong which is booming residential wise.  (Far smarter than wasting capex on a station at Raywood with a population of just 300  !!!!)
- People forget before the 2007 flood this line saw regular daily freight trains happily operating on the existing singled Bendigo line with a passenger timetable virtually the same as todays hourly off peak services, so if re opened now things will work fine.
- Medium term for Bendigo to get its promised 40 minute Off Peak frequency at least two sections of several kms will have be restored as double track.  This not only will benefit pax services but also increase freight paths especially with the the existing bi-di signalling and installation of a few more crossovers at selected locations between Clarkefield and Ravenswood.
- Inglewood - Eaglehawk is already 47kg track in long welded lengths, sleepers,  line and top is in reasonable repair and easily re-activated for around $ 30m for 50 kmh "fit for purpose" speed. Main cost element will be re-decking one bridge at Marong and replacing a few kms of flood damaged track at Bridgewater.
-  Thousands of serviceable wooden sleepers and all the required rail (107lb) readily available for nothing from the now closed North Line at Bungaree, along with five (5) sets of boom barriers.
- So on all counts its an absolute NO BRAINER not to re-activate this line and restore a valuable cross country link, and get more freight on rail and off roads, plus extend passenger services to Marong.
- talk about decison makers - ASLEEP at THE WHEEL  !!!!

This makes a lot of sense.

Sadly for Jacinta, I suspect she doesn’t know where Eaglehawk is

Sadly for Jacinta, I suspect she doesn’t know where Eaglehawk is

And considering that her electorate encompasses at least part of Eaglehawk that is really quite something!!!

The Bendigo-Swan Hill rail line forms part of the boundry between Bendigo West and Jacinta’s Bendigo East

What if any of the price difference between plastic and concrete sleepers and why are more not being used on the V/line network ?

Seems the right thing to do install recycled plastic sleepers.

Are there operational issues in their use ?