more SG to Seymour

 

Pinned post created by dthead

Posted 2 months ago

  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
If you want more SG passenger services on the north east then it has been said here to introduce a service from Benalla to Yarrawonga. Better to leverage the existing SG network more than worry about adding more.

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  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Thread split from  "Standard Gauge Velocities" https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11401584-s400.htm
this thread is not about the velocoties but  as th new title says.

Enjoy.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

The best opportunity to build an extensive SG network in Victoria was when the railways were built from scratch.  The second best opportunity won't arrive any time soon.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I put the question the other way.  What freight will be lost due to underinvestment in rail infrastructure?  TAL upgrades are one thing but SG access to allow more operators onto the track, and lower the fleet overhead cost are another.
So... you have no idea then.

What are the "more operators" going to carry? To where?

cheers
John
Equally, it appears you cannot answer my question (but Galron's below is a good start).  This isnt the thread for this anyway so im not going to continue to restate my points ive raised in other threads.
Sure start up your SG nonsense at any oportunity, but then run off when asked to actually quantify the money.

Mate this is not the sort of conversation I come to RP for.  I suggest you take a few minutes or the rest of the day and get some perspective.  There is no need to start getting personal about this.

And this is way off topic.  SG VLo talk please.  Any initial feedback on its run?
james.au
Have taken my chill pills.
Please accept my appology James. That was uncalled for.

cheers
John
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The BG is just fine. Why would you need to SG to Seymour what is the advantage ?
freightgate
SG needs to be duplicated and there is no real need for BG to be anything other then single track beyond Craigieburn. Getting these other lines converted by ARTC while not perfect is still a hell of a lot better then getting vic track to do it. There are more SG competitors around to provide services and converting Tocumwal to SG and the unused Toolamba to Echuca line to connect the bits of track that go in to NSW to SG will allow those lines to extend on to the NSW network providing more rail opportunities then leaving this piece of track BG.

It would have been much more viable to start converting this part to SG first. I'm not really sure what advantage converting mildura to SG was which I'm sure dangerdan would like hearing me say.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Have taken my chill pills.
Please accept my appology James. That was uncalled for.

cheers
John
justarider
Were all good John.  We all have our moments (and ive had mine).  Now onto better things to talk about!
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
This is of course does nothing to address the issues of access between Southern Cross and Tottenham, which will struggle to handle a further 10 trains each way per day to and from Shepparton (which is what Shepparton is expecting to receive in the near future.)
Gman_86
What exactly is required to facilitate these volumes of trains, noting that this would be adding to the Albury trains and XPTs (plus the Overland of course)
  • How many platforms required in SCS?
  • How many tracks in and out of SCS to Tottenham (from there on i suspect 2 tracks (with some loops/crossovers here and there))?
  • Or is it signalling upgrades that are required to increase capacity of current tracks?
  • What stabling/servicing facilities would be needed?


Does anyone have a detailed pattern of the train operations out of SCS to Seymour, Shep and Albury (ie an amalgamation of the timetables)?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Leave Seynour BG and wire and starting using some real EMU's for faster services https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/pesa-unveils-first-of-seven-emus-destined-for-regiojet
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
This is of course does nothing to address the issues of access between Southern Cross and Tottenham, which will struggle to handle a further 10 trains each way per day to and from Shepparton (which is what Shepparton is expecting to receive in the near future.)
What exactly is required to facilitate these volumes of trains, noting that this would be adding to the Albury trains and XPTs (plus the Overland of course)
  • How many platforms required in SCS?
  • How many tracks in and out of SCS to Tottenham (from there on i suspect 2 tracks (with some loops/crossovers here and there))?
  • Or is it signalling upgrades that are required to increase capacity of current tracks?
  • What stabling/servicing facilities would be needed?


Does anyone have a detailed pattern of the train operations out of SCS to Seymour, Shep and Albury (ie an amalgamation of the timetables)?
Here you go
https://www.vline.com.au/Resources/Train-Timetables/Seymour-Melbourne

21 up and down daily, to Seymour/Shepparton/Albury. Plus 2 up and down XPT to Sydney.

SH = Shep, A = Albury

Albury goes on the SG via Tottenham. The rest BG via North Melbourne.

You may note that Broadmeadows to SCS via SG is up to 42 minutes ,
wheras the BG(even though sharing with Metro SAS) is typically only 21 min.

No prize guessing which the customers prefer. The Albury train can only compete because it's express, but still marginally slower.

cheers
John
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks John

Anyone got any idea what the schedule will look like after the Shepparton services are extended from Seymour?  There would need to be another one or two Seymour locals added no?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Thanks John

Anyone got any idea what the schedule will look like after the Shepparton services are extended from Seymour?  There would need to be another one or two Seymour locals added no?
james.au
An increase from 5 per day, to 9 per day.  ATM busses are making up the shortfall.
https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/news/regional-rail-revival/modern-trains-and-more-services-for-the-shepparton-line
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Leave Seynour BG and wire and starting using some real EMU's for faster services https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/pesa-unveils-first-of-seven-emus-destined-for-regiojet
bevans
Seymour doesn't need the wires anytime soon.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Leave Seynour BG and wire and starting using some real EMU's for faster services https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/pesa-unveils-first-of-seven-emus-destined-for-regiojet
bevans
Currently 2 bg  Wallan - Seymour and 1 sg tarck. Plenty of tracks and capacity .
So  Shepp goes sg and Seymour stays a bg.  Then alter Wallan - Seymour to bi-di signal bith existing bg lines, and convert existing Up bg line to dual gauge as 1oo km/h on the bg of the centre line.

At Southern Cross platform 3 South becomes dual gauge so that gives 4 sg platform faces in platform 1, 2 North & South
plus 3 South.

Existing sg single line Wallan Broady gets progressively duplicated. Broady to Albion dual gauge the existing bg only track,
duplicate as necessary Albion - West Footiscray. Duplicate as necessary sg line Bunbury St Junction to  North Melbourne flyover.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Leave Seynour BG and wire and starting using some real EMU's for faster services https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/pesa-unveils-first-of-seven-emus-destined-for-regiojet
Seymour doesn't need the wires anytime soon.
railblogger
Seymour needs 21st century signalling first.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks John

Anyone got any idea what the schedule will look like after the Shepparton services are extended from Seymour?  There would need to be another one or two Seymour locals added no?
An increase from 5 per day, to 9 per day.  ATM busses are making up the shortfall.
https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/news/regional-rail-revival/modern-trains-and-more-services-for-the-shepparton-line
justarider
Ok, I can see those busses in the timetable.  Does the VLo sit at Seymour and wait for the return bus from Shep, or does it turn around and go back to SCS?  If it waits then the 9 service Shep timetable is already there.  Though id think it would be a poor utilisation of rolling stock if it does wait.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Leave Seynour BG and wire and starting using some real EMU's for faster services https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/pesa-unveils-first-of-seven-emus-destined-for-regiojet
Seymour doesn't need the wires anytime soon.
Seymour needs 21st century signalling first.
speedemon08
I was thinking about this.

Inland Rail is (supposedly) going to be ATMS enabled from day 1.  Could this be a factor in any further standardisation potential north of Melbourne?  Are the VLocities ATMS ready? Id suspect that the SG ones probably have this in the concept design somewhere given they are going to operate on the same track as ATMS enabled freighters.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Ok.
I will bite.


What does ATMS stand for?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Thanks John

Anyone got any idea what the schedule will look like after the Shepparton services are extended from Seymour?  There would need to be another one or two Seymour locals added no?
An increase from 5 per day, to 9 per day.  ATM busses are making up the shortfall.
https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/news/regional-rail-revival/modern-trains-and-more-services-for-the-shepparton-line
Ok, I can see those busses in the timetable.  Does the VLo sit at Seymour and wait for the return bus from Shep, or does it turn around and go back to SCS?  If it waits then the 9 service Shep timetable is already there.  Though id think it would be a poor utilisation of rolling stock if it does wait.
james.au
Not quite, that Seymour TT is just the trains.

The extra busses linking Shepparton and Seymour are in this TT. They go all the way to Griffith.
https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/c6635101-43bd-4cc0-9c54-c8b68380e783/Shepparton-Melbourne-(via-Griffith-Tocumwal-Cob)
these busses are slated to be replaced by train after the upgrades.

Note: only loco drawn trains. Velocity not until the upgrades are done.

cheers
John
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Ok.
I will bite.


What does ATMS stand for?
Gman_86
I thought you were YM-Mundrabilla for a second Wink

ATMS - Advanced Train Management System

https://www.artc.com.au/projects/atms/

A 'new' generation of signalling ARTC is developing to increase track capacity.

Taking ages to implement though....
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Leave Seynour BG and wire and starting using some real EMU's for faster services https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/pesa-unveils-first-of-seven-emus-destined-for-regiojet
Currently 2 bg  Wallan - Seymour and 1 sg tarck. Plenty of tracks and capacity .
So  Shepp goes sg and Seymour stays a bg.  Then alter Wallan - Seymour to bi-di signal bith existing bg lines, and convert existing Up bg line to dual gauge as 1oo km/h on the bg of the centre line.

At Southern Cross platform 3 South becomes dual gauge so that gives 4 sg platform faces in platform 1, 2 North & South
plus 3 South.

Existing sg single line Wallan Broady gets progressively duplicated. Broady to Albion dual gauge the existing bg only track,
duplicate as necessary Albion - West Footiscray. Duplicate as necessary sg line Bunbury St Junction to  North Melbourne flyover.
kuldalai
If you're going to convert the southern end of Platform 3 to DG, you migh as well convert the whole thing.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Leave Seynour BG and wire and starting using some real EMU's for faster services https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/pesa-unveils-first-of-seven-emus-destined-for-regiojet
Currently 2 bg  Wallan - Seymour and 1 sg tarck. Plenty of tracks and capacity .
So  Shepp goes sg and Seymour stays a bg.  Then alter Wallan - Seymour to bi-di signal bith existing bg lines, and convert existing Up bg line to dual gauge as 1oo km/h on the bg of the centre line.

At Southern Cross platform 3 South becomes dual gauge so that gives 4 sg platform faces in platform 1, 2 North & South
plus 3 South.

Existing sg single line Wallan Broady gets progressively duplicated. Broady to Albion dual gauge the existing bg only track,
duplicate as necessary Albion - West Footiscray. Duplicate as necessary sg line Bunbury St Junction to  North Melbourne flyover.
If you're going to convert the southern end of Platform 3 to DG, you migh as well convert the whole thing.
railblogger
AGREED!
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Thanks John

Anyone got any idea what the schedule will look like after the Shepparton services are extended from Seymour?  There would need to be another one or two Seymour locals added no?
An increase from 5 per day, to 9 per day.  ATM busses are making up the shortfall.
https://bigbuild.vic.gov.au/news/regional-rail-revival/modern-trains-and-more-services-for-the-shepparton-line
Ok, I can see those busses in the timetable.  Does the VLo sit at Seymour and wait for the return bus from Shep, or does it turn around and go back to SCS?  If it waits then the 9 service Shep timetable is already there.  Though id think it would be a poor utilisation of rolling stock if it does wait.
Not quite, that Seymour TT is just the trains.

The extra busses linking Shepparton and Seymour are in this TT. They go all the way to Griffith.
https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/c6635101-43bd-4cc0-9c54-c8b68380e783/Shepparton-Melbourne-(via-Griffith-Tocumwal-Cob)
these busses are slated to be replaced by train after the upgrades.

Note: only loco drawn trains. Velocity not until the upgrades are done.

cheers
John
justarider
Getting back to your original query @James.au  

yes, the Vlo (or other) from SCS, waits at Seymour return for the Shepp bus to arrive.
This happens 4 times a day.

For the bus pax it's a 15min interchange scheduled. When it's train all the way, the station wait would revert to the normal 2min.

For the returning trains, it's not so much "idle" time

DOWN arrive/UP depart are 8:33/9:16  11:59/12:16  16:03/18:16#    19:11/ 19:53(friday)      #there is Shep down & up train inbetween

Not much of the upgrade program has been said beyond "more trains to Shepp".
The much bigger benefit is creating the abilty to schedulle more trains UP from Seymour. Wallan/Donnybrook etc. are packed to the rafters and screaming for more services

cheers
John
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Ok.
I will bite.


What does ATMS stand for?
I thought you were YM-Mundrabilla for a second Wink

ATMS - Advanced Train Management System

https://www.artc.com.au/projects/atms/

A 'new' generation of signalling ARTC is developing to increase track capacity.

Taking ages to implement though....
james.au
How much 'increased track capacity' is actually to be achieved by some of these gee-wizz signaling systems than the extra crossing loops etc that inevitably seem to come with them?

Pity that they didn't put the money into the track.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Ok.
I will bite.


What does ATMS stand for?
Gman_86
Join the small clan who like to make sense of what is posted here.

You will be unlike the self appointed know alls who use unexplained acronyms to give themselves 'an ego trip' under the pretext of avoiding RSI (repetitive strain injury) from typing a few extra characters.

Would be signal engineers seem to be, by far, the worst offenders probably because they fancy that their time is much more valuable than that of other mere mortal railwaymen.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Ok.
I will bite.


What does ATMS stand for?
I thought you were YM-Mundrabilla for a second Wink

ATMS - Advanced Train Management System

https://www.artc.com.au/projects/atms/

A 'new' generation of signalling ARTC is developing to increase track capacity.

Taking ages to implement though....
How much 'increased track capacity' is actually to be achieved by some of these gee-wizz signaling systems than the extra crossing loops etc that inevitably seem to come with them?

Pity that they didn't put the money into the track.
YM-Mundrabilla
I think part of it is also reducing cost associated with manual signals maintenance too.  Ie no lights, semaphores etc out in the middle of the Nullarbor.  Virtual signalling at all times.

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