T4 and SCO post NIF and T3 Metro conversion

 
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Are you aware of the allocation of the new CAF regional trains in replacing the existing fleet of XPTs, Xplorers and Endeavours?
The new fleet will consist of 117 carriages which will form 29 new trains:

10 Regional Intercity 3Car Sets (Replaces ENDVR Fleet) 9 Short Regional 3Car Sets (Replaces XPL Fleet)  & 10 Long Regional 6Car Sets (Replaces XPT Fleet)
LegendsofSteam
I'm aware of the makeup of the CAF fleet, but do you know how each train type will be allocated to specific routes?  It's been pointed out previously that there appears to be a shortfall in replacements for the number of Endeavour sets, although 3 car sets will replace the existing 2 car sets.

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  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I can't believe how uncomfortable it would be to catch one of those plastic ironing board seats all the way for 10 hours between Sydney and Melbourne.
What REALLY should be done to reduce travel times is update the infrastructure and double track ALL regional passenger lines FULLY. (Obviously this would never get full funding but still.)
Griffinrails Official
A good case could be made for double tracking the remaining single track sections between Junee and Albury in NSW and the SG track between Seymour and Southern Cross in Victoria, as well as upgrading the whole line to MSR standard (200km/h).  It would benefit freight as much as it would passenger services and no doubt create incentive for increasing services for both modes.  Forget about fanciful dreams of HSR, when MSR is a more cost effective option.
  scott4570 Chief Train Controller

Are you aware of the allocation of the new CAF regional trains in replacing the existing fleet of XPTs, Xplorers and Endeavours?
Transtopic

The Current Timetable calls for the following Regional Rosters by set-type, with an estimate of the New Regional sets allocated, at that same Level of Service:-

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Endeavour sets . . .. Regional Intercity (10 x 3car)
South Coast . . . . . . . . . . . .. 1 x 2car set . . . . . . . 1 x 3car set
Southern Line . . . . . . . . . . .. 6 x 2car sets . . . . . . 6 x 3car sets
Western Line . . . . . . . .. . . .. 2 x 2car sets . . . . . . Nil (provided by changeover sets to/from Dubbo)
Hunter Line . . . . . . . . . . . . .. 2 x 2car sets . . . . .. 1 x 3car set
Repair & Maintenance. . . . . 3 x 2car sets . . . . .. 2 x 2car sets
(Note: Endeavour Maintenance sets are allocated: 2 x 2car sets in Sydney, 1 x 2car set in Broadmeadow).
(Note: Regional Maintenance sets are allocated: 2 x 2car sets in Dubbo).

Note: there are 7 x 2car Hunter sets, in the Hunter, 5 x 2car sets are required for the Timetable.
With the withdrawal of Endeavour sets, 6 x 2car Hunter sets would be required.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . Xplorer sets . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Short Regional sets (9 x 3car)
Canberra services . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . 2 x 3car sets . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . .. 2 x 3car sets
Armidale & Moree service . . .. . . . . . .. . 2 x (4+2)car sets . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 x 3car sets
Broken Hill service (Mon, return Tue) . . 1 x 3car set . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . .. 1 x 3car set (same set operates to Griffith)
Griffith service (****) . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . 1 x 2car set . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . .. same set that operates to Broken Hill
(**** operates Wednesday & return Thursday, Saturday & return Sunday)
Repair and Maintenance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . 2 x 3car sets

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . XPT sets . . . . . . . Long Regional sets (10 x 6car)
Sydney-Dubbo-Sydney service (daily return) . . . . . . . 1 x 5car set . . . . . 1 x 6car set
Sydney-Casino-Sydney-Brisbane-Sydney services . .. 3 x 7car sets . . . . 3 x 6car sets
Sydney-Melbourne-Sydney-Grafton services . . . . . . . 2 x 7car sets . . . . 2 x 6car sets
Grafton-Sydney-Melbourne-Sydney services . . . . . . . 2 x 7car sets . . . . 2 x 6car sets
Repair and Maintenance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 x 6car sets
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Are you aware of the allocation of the new CAF regional trains in replacing the existing fleet of XPTs, Xplorers and Endeavours?

The Current Timetable calls for the following Regional Rosters by set-type, with an estimate of the New Regional sets allocated, at that same Level of Service:-

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Endeavour sets . . .. Regional Intercity (10 x 3car)
South Coast . . . . . . . . . . . .. 1 x 2car set . . . . . . . 1 x 3car set
Southern Line . . . . . . . . . . .. 6 x 2car sets . . . . . . 6 x 3car sets
Western Line . . . . . . . .. . . .. 2 x 2car sets . . . . . . Nil (provided by changeover sets to/from Dubbo)
Hunter Line . . . . . . . . . . . . .. 2 x 2car sets . . . . .. 1 x 3car set
Repair & Maintenance. . . . . 3 x 2car sets . . . . .. 2 x 2car sets
(Note: Endeavour Maintenance sets are allocated: 2 x 2car sets in Sydney, 1 x 2car set in Broadmeadow).
(Note: Regional Maintenance sets are allocated: 2 x 2car sets in Dubbo).

Note: there are 7 x 2car Hunter sets, in the Hunter, 5 x 2car sets are required for the Timetable.
With the withdrawal of Endeavour sets, 6 x 2car Hunter sets would be required.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . Xplorer sets . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Short Regional sets (9 x 3car)
Canberra services . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . 2 x 3car sets . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . .. 2 x 3car sets
Armidale & Moree service . . .. . . . . . .. . 2 x (4+2)car sets . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . 4 x 3car sets
Broken Hill service (Mon, return Tue) . . 1 x 3car set . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . .. 1 x 3car set (same set operates to Griffith)
Griffith service (****) . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . 1 x 2car set . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . .. same set that operates to Broken Hill
(**** operates Wednesday & return Thursday, Saturday & return Sunday)
Repair and Maintenance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . .. . . . . 2 x 3car sets

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . XPT sets . . . . . . . Long Regional sets (10 x 6car)
Sydney-Dubbo-Sydney service (daily return) . . . . . . . 1 x 5car set . . . . . 1 x 6car set
Sydney-Casino-Sydney-Brisbane-Sydney services . .. 3 x 7car sets . . . . 3 x 6car sets
Sydney-Melbourne-Sydney-Grafton services . . . . . . . 2 x 7car sets . . . . 2 x 6car sets
Grafton-Sydney-Melbourne-Sydney services . . . . . . . 2 x 7car sets . . . . 2 x 6car sets
Repair and Maintenance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 x 6car sets
scott4570
Thanks for clearing that up Scott, particularly with regard to the allocation of the Endeavour set CAF replacements.  I presume you mean that 2 x 3 car Regional Intercity sets would be allocated for Repair and Maintenance.

As canvassed previously, the new CAF fleet appears to only replace existing services, without any provision for introducing additional services, although I guess they could extend the order down the track.  The possible extension of electrification on the SCO and SHL lines over the next couple of decades could release some Regional Intercity sets, which could be allocated to increased services on the Hunter Line.

At the very least, I can envisage additional services for a midday/morning daily return Riverina Express service to Albury and Griffith with 2 x 3 car Short Regional sets splitting at Junee; an afternoon/morning daily return service to Dubbo with a Long Regional 6 car set; an additional morning/evening return service to Brisbane with a Long Regional 6 car set; a three times weekly return service to Broken Hill with a Short Regional 3 car set and a daily morning/evening return service from Armidale and/or Tamworth to Newcastle with a Short Regional 3 car set.
  Griffinrails Official Junior Train Controller

Location: Dunno. (help i'm lost)
So, what's happening with the Bathurst Bullet then if there are no replacements? Are they going to be operated by the refurbished Endeavours?
  AheadMatthewawsome Train Controller

Location: mightbenolongerinuse
So, what's happening with the Bathurst Bullet then if there are no replacements? Are they going to be operated by the refurbished Endeavours?
Griffinrails Official
Don't forget the Hunter Railcars!
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
So, what's happening with the Bathurst Bullet then if there are no replacements? Are they going to be operated by the refurbished Endeavours?
Griffinrails Official
I stand to be corrected, but AFAIK, none of the existing Regional train fleet are to be refurbished or retained as they're replaced by the new CAF sets.

As scott4570 noted, the 2 x 2 (3) car Regional Intercity sets (Endeavour replacements) allocated for Repair and Maintenance will provide the 2 daily return Bullet services as each set is rotated to and from Dubbo.  Unless things have changed in recent times, the Endeavour Bullet sets on the afternoon/evening runs from Sydney now terminate at Bathurst and return to Lithgow for stabling.  That pattern is reversed for the morning runs from Bathurst.

With the new CAF Intercity variant, I assume that at the end of the run from Sydney, the sets will run empty to the Dubbo Maintenance Centre and will be replaced by sets coming out of maintenance for the next days runs to Sydney, running empty to Bathurst to start the service.  I don't know whether there is any possibility of carrying passengers on these dead runs.  It does seem a waste though, when Bathurst is only half-way between Sydney and Dubbo and involves a lot of dead running. They could possibly extend the Bullet service to and from Orange, which would involve less dead running, but would that be acceptable instead of utilising the Short Regional 3 car sets?  It may also involve a very early start from Orange and would probably be faster by coach from Orange to Bathurst.

There doesn't appear to be any decision made to replace the Hunter sets.

As we're getting way off-topic now, I think any further discussion should be directed to the Regional train fleet replacement thread.
  AheadMatthewawsome Train Controller

Location: mightbenolongerinuse
Speaking about the Bathurst Bullet. Maybe we should also consider reopening Bowenfels, Wallerawang, Raglan, and Kelso stations as apart of the service? They're huge compared to Rydal and Tarana, Rydal get 10 trains per day for a population of 609, with only 50 in the village! While Raglan, Wallerawang Bowenfels have about 2,000, and Kelso has 8,000 and have nothing! It just makes sense to give them a service so that it's not empty all the time!
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Speaking about the Bathurst Bullet. Maybe we should also consider reopening Bowenfels, Wallerawang, Raglan, and Kelso stations as apart of the service? They're huge compared to Rydal and Tarana, Rydal get 10 trains per day for a population of 609, with only 50 in the village! While Raglan, Wallerawang Bowenfels have about 2,000, and Kelso has 8,000 and have nothing! It just makes sense to give them a service so that it's not empty all the time!
AheadMatthewawsome
Rydal and Tarana draw on a large regional area including Oberon, not just the populations of the villages themselves.  I can't see where you get 10 trains per day for Rydal (assuming you mean 5 trains per day in each direction).  My estimate is 3 trains per day per direction (1 x Dubbo XPT + 2 x Bathurst Bullet).

While Kelso and Wallerawang may well justify stops for the Bullet, I can't see the need for Bowenfels and Raglan at present, although with continuing population growth in the Central West, they may be justified in the future.  The possible introduction of a morning/evening return CAF service from Dubbo to Sydney could also have an impact on these services.

Having relatives in Bathurst, I don't think that the Bullet services are ever empty.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Speaking about the Bathurst Bullet. Maybe we should also consider reopening Bowenfels, Wallerawang, Raglan, and Kelso stations as apart of the service? They're huge compared to Rydal and Tarana, Rydal get 10 trains per day for a population of 609, with only 50 in the village! While Raglan, Wallerawang Bowenfels have about 2,000, and Kelso has 8,000 and have nothing! It just makes sense to give them a service so that it's not empty all the time!
AheadMatthewawsome
Find the money to do it and then come back.

The only reason Rydal and Tarana get the service is because they’re active stations.

I might point out that the towns you have cherry picked do get transport in the form of coaches. They do not get ‘nothing’ as you claim.

https://anytrip.com.au/?selectedTrip=tripInstance%2F20211130%2Fau2:nt:568%2F0
  AheadMatthewawsome Train Controller

Location: mightbenolongerinuse
Speaking about the Bathurst Bullet. Maybe we should also consider reopening Bowenfels, Wallerawang, Raglan, and Kelso stations as apart of the service? They're huge compared to Rydal and Tarana, Rydal gets 10 trains per day for a population of 609, with only 50 in the village! While Raglan, Wallerawang Bowenfels have about 2,000, and Kelso has 8,000 and have nothing! It just makes sense to give them a service so that it's not empty all the time!
Find the money to do it and then come back.

The only reason Rydal and Tarana get the service is because they’re active stations.

I might point out that the towns you have cherry picked do get transport in the form of coaches. They do not get ‘nothing’ as you claim.

https://anytrip.com.au/?selectedTrip=tripInstance%2F20211130%2Fau2:nt:568%2F0
s3_gunzel
It's not the same as what Rydal and Tarana get. Rydal gets 4 to Bathurst, 1 to Dubbo, 2 to Lithgow, and 3 to Central. And also is supported by Opal! Everywhere else gets squat. With Coaches that barely come compared to trains, buses that just do a few spins, and no Opal Card on the coaches! Which I agree with Griffin that it should be implemented: https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11403447.htm

Bowenfels and Wallerawang are pretty much all ready to reopen with a bit of a reno. Raglan station still has the platform, but would need to be redone. While Kelso station doesn't exist anymore and would have to be rebuilt. We're not building a line to Auckland here! It would only be about $50 million, defiantly one of the most cheapest projects around right now. With huge benefits to Lithgow/Bathurst. With possible Electrification to Bathurst and Portland (for Mount Piper Power Station). A possible extension of the BMT to Oberon. Moving Falconbridge to 140M from Great Western Highway opp Churchill Street Bus Stop, Linden to opp Linden RFS. New stations at Emu Heights and Leonay. And additional regional services towards Mudgee/Coolah, and Adelaide. More info here: https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11398833-0-asc-s50.htm

If this were to go ahead, the timetable would change. All regional services would stop Parramatta-Penrith-Katoomba-Lithgow-Bathurst- then all stations. With the Bathurst Bullet running every 2 hours to Central between 6AM and 9AM, and 3PM to 6PM. Then every 3 hours between Lithgow and Bathurst. With the Central trains stopping all stations to Mount Victoria, then Katoomba-Hazelbrook(B,L)-Springwood-Blaxland(B,L)-Penrith-St Marys(L)-Blacktown-Parramatta-Strathfield-Central. With the rest of the BMT running 1h all stations to Springwood from Mount Victoria-Glenbrook(B)-Penrith-St Marys(B,L)-Blacktown-Parramatta-Strathfield-Central, and 1h from Springwood all stations to Penrith-St Marys(B)-Blacktown-Westmead(B,L)-Parramatta-Lidcombe(B,L)-Strathfield-Redfern(B,L)-Central. (L: Limited Service, B: Boarding down line, alighting up line only). This would be following the 10 stations rule. Where preferably trains would only stop all stations from the start of their service, then after 10 stations would only stop at major stations like Gordon, Chatswood, St Leonards, and North Sydney.

I hope to god this won't cause backlash.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
defiantly
AheadMatthewawsome
The word’s “definitely”, mate. Please use the right word. The stations are not in any way defiant.

It's not the same as what Rydal and Tarana get. Rydal gets 4 to Bathurst, 1 to Dubbo, 2 to Lithgow, and 3 to Central. And also is supported by Opal! Everywhere else gets squat. With Coaches that barely come compared to trains, buses that just do a few spins, and no Opal Card on the coaches!
Ah. You’re just vexed that you can’t get a train to Kelso. I might point out those coaches meet intercity trains at Lithgow. They get a service, whether or not it’s on the Opal network is immaterial. Not everywhere needs to be on the Opal Network. And in fact, Rydal and Tarana are only on the Opal network because of the Bullet.

Now, I do not agree with slowing down the bullet for your fantasy of stopping all stops between Lithgow and Bathurst. To be honest I don’t even agree with it stopping Rydal and Tarana but appreciate a political decision (given the bullet is itself a political train) was made to stop there.

I’m gonna leave your XPT to Adelaide thread *well alone*. That’s just a dribbler fantasy.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
mentioning service all over the place and even to Adelaide is not on. This is the Sydney Suburban  section.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
mentioning service all over the place and even to Adelaide is not on. This is the Sydney Suburban  section.
dthead
Agree.  Moderators, please transfer further discussion to the regional train thread.
  AheadMatthewawsome Train Controller

Location: mightbenolongerinuse
So, @scott4570 gets to do the exact same thing. But I can’t?
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
So, @scott4570 gets to do the exact same thing. But I can’t?
AheadMatthewawsome
UUhh, he didn't! Evil or Very Mad

Assuming his answer is accurate, and I have no evidence to suggest it is not, he provided an informative response to a (legitimate) question about potential deployment of the upcoming CAF fleet, which will cover territory presently serviced by CityRail. And is the subject of this thread.

Don't try the 'woe is me' rubbish.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
A question I've asked of another post in a different forum but had zero answer. What does SCO mean?

Please, please tell me someone.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
A question I've asked of another post in a different forum but had zero answer. What does SCO mean?

Please, please tell me someone.
GrahamH
It's the code for the South Coast Intercity route.  The Blue Mountains is BMT; the Central Coast and Newcastle is CCN and the Southern Highlands is SHL.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
A question I've asked of another post in a different forum but had zero answer. What does SCO mean?

Please, please tell me someone.
It's the code for the South Coast Intercity route.  The Blue Mountains is BMT; the Central Coast and Newcastle is CCN and the Southern Highlands is SHL.
Transtopic
Thank you so very much!
  alleve Junior Train Controller

Location: T4 Illawarra Line
The T4 is being closed between Central and Sydenham from the 26th to the 28th, during the T3 shut-down period for a major upgrade. Does anyone know what this upgrade entails? My best guess is that it'll involve St Peters and Erskineville for when they become part of the T4, but I have no idea.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
The T4 is being closed between Central and Sydenham from the 26th to the 28th, during the T3 shut-down period for a major upgrade. Does anyone know what this upgrade entails? My best guess is that it'll involve St Peters and Erskineville for when they become part of the T4, but I have no idea.
alleve
It'll be because of Metro construction on the northern end of Sydenham station. Due to the nature of the rail line you can't turn back between Central and Sydenham.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The T4 is being closed between Central and Sydenham from the 26th to the 28th, during the T3 shut-down period for a major upgrade. Does anyone know what this upgrade entails? My best guess is that it'll involve St Peters and Erskineville for when they become part of the T4, but I have no idea.
alleve
Most likely it will be for further work on the Erskineville Crossover project to connect the Illawarra Local to the Illawarra Dive to access Sydney Terminal.  This will be used by the new 10 car D-sets for SCO Intercity services which will be diverted from Bondi Junction after T3 is converted to metro operation.  It will also be used by South Line Regional services.  This project works in tandem with the Hurstville Crossover project which will free up the Main from Hurstville to Wolli Creek for all stations T4 services with the semi-express Cronulla/Waterfall running on the Local and merging with the Main at Wolli Creek and continuing to Bondi Junction in an all stations pattern.  This means that in the peak, all stations from Wolli Creek to Bondi Junction will receive 24tph and reduced journey times with the proposed digital signalling upgrade, which is a huge improvement on current service levels.  SCO Intercity and South Regional services will access Sydney Terminal directly from the Local and will no longer have to cross to the Main before Erskineville.

I doubt if it has anything to do directly with the metro conversion as the lines have already been separated.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I doubt if it has anything to do directly with the metro conversion as the lines have already been separated.
Transtopic
I was of the impression they were building a new concourse at Sydenham.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I doubt if it has anything to do directly with the metro conversion as the lines have already been separated.
I was of the impression they were building a new concourse at Sydenham.
s3_gunzel
AFAIK, that's already been completed.  A new crossover was installed from the Bankstown Line to the Illawarra Local south of Sydenham Station through Platforms 3 & 4 to facilitate metro conversion works through Platforms 1 & 2.  This is reverting back to the original junction of the Bankstown Line before Platforms 1 & 2 were constructed in more recent times.  I can't see how the metro works impact on existing services when they've already been separated.  IMO, it's more to do with the Erskineville Crossover project.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I doubt if it has anything to do directly with the metro conversion as the lines have already been separated.
I was of the impression they were building a new concourse at Sydenham.
AFAIK, that's already been completed.  A new crossover was installed from the Bankstown Line to the Illawarra Local south of Sydenham Station through Platforms 3 & 4 to facilitate metro conversion works through Platforms 1 & 2.  This is reverting back to the original junction of the Bankstown Line before Platforms 1 & 2 were constructed in more recent times.  I can't see how the metro works impact on existing services when they've already been separated.  IMO, it's more to do with the Erskineville Crossover project.
Transtopic
I'll accept I'm wrong. Thanks for that.

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