The Folly of High Speed Rail in NSW

 
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

Small bypasses (line straightening) like what happened with the highways will be much more beneficial to the social fabric and cost significantly less. HSR's main hurdle is that it is a passenger only rail system and Australia can not afford this. It needs solutions that will help freight and passenger traffic. Both NSW and Victoria have rolling stock that could allow faster services if level crossings were removed along with duplication and line straightening. The XPT could easily drop 4-5 hours off it's nearly 11 hour service currently provided. That is a massive change in service that could be provided without having to spend $100 billion.
Agreed!

And if the price was right (half that of air travel and unfluctuating), I think medium-speed rail could still provide a competitive service with air travel for leisure travellers, espcailly when you consider the cost, hassle, station access fees, and game of whack-a-mole that is air travel.

Yes, you're quite correct sims.  This matter has already been discussed ad nauseum on other threads and the general consensus seems to be that HSR in the Australian context, and specifically on the East Coast, just isn't viable because of the long distances between capital cities and sparse population densities in between.  Australia isn't like Europe or Asia.

The cost of fares to recoup even partial operating costs, let alone capital costs, would make it totally uncompetitive with air travel, particularly over the longer interstate distances.  Forget about a daily commute or even less from regional centres to and from the capital cities.  It would require massive subsidies from Federal and State Governments, when little overall benefit would be gained compared with a more modest aspiration, at a fraction of the cost, in upgrading the existing rail network to Medium Rail Standard (up to 200km/h) with curve easing, deviations and track duplication.  

This would significantly reduce existing journey times for both passenger and freight traffic and make it more competitive with road coach and freight traffic, which realistically are its major competitors, not air travel.  I can see no reason why journey times couldn't be at least halved on some routes.  The major beneficiaries would be on intrastate regional journeys between the capital cities and their respective regional centres, which would include cross border trips, i.e. Northern NSW to Brisbane and Southern NSW to Melbourne.

Labor would be well advised to drop HSR from its policy platform and instead focus on MSR.

The new NSW hybrid diesel/electric Regional Train Fleet will enable operation under the wires on the existing electrified network and any future extensions, which at this stage is proposed to Goulburn, Bathurst and Maitland.  It could no doubt be extended further in the future.
Funnily enough, the one thing that government refuse to do, provide resources and develop outside of Sydney, is what would make high-speed rail actually viable.

If Newcastle and Wollongong were provided with resources and made into liveable cities, and likewise Albury-Wodonga were merge into one and expanded into something the size and population of Wollongong and given resources, and likewise Wagga, Port Macquarie, and Coffs Harbour were expanded into the size of Wollongong,
then and only then, not only could we lower the cost of living, but maybe, JUST MAYBE we could justify a high speed train stopping at Melbourne - Albury/Wodonga - Wagga - Canberra - Wollongong - Sydney - Newcastle - Port Macquarie - Coffs Harbour - Gold Coast - Brisbane.


But the current policy of cram everyone into Sydney, charge them $550/week rent, take all resources from other parts of the state, and treat secondary cities like country towns, high speed rail will NEVER be viable.

The OP said:

Job applications are largely automated and applying for a Sydney job with a regional address will likely get your application automatically spat out!”

This seems like a TOTAL fiction. I work in a relatively high tech professional sector and we absolutely consider applicants from outside Sydney. Have you considered it wasn’t your address that was the issue.. :p
This comment seems TOTALLY unnecessary, I work from home and live in Sydney, but I have seen job applications, including those for Transport for NSW claiming that they will priorities those with lower commute times, and when the same people claiming that "High-Speed Rail will give people choice in where they live" and the same people not allowing intercity commuters to work from them, you know something is wrong.


Glad to see your company is not part of the problem, but you can't just assume that the problem isn't there.
ExtremeCommuter (PREVIOUS PAGE)



Funnily enough, the one thing that government refuse to do, provide resources and develop outside of Sydney, is what would make high-speed rail actually viable.
nsw has started on a plan .. expanding the metropolitan plan .. but would not be placing any bets on fast transport links ..
viaprojects
Yeah I heard the news: https://newsconcerns.com/perrottets-plan-for-six-city-mega-region/

Will believe it when I see it, everything Perrottet is saying has the potential to make NSW the best thing since sliced bread - unfortunately there is one little problem - there is a state election coming up in March. I'm sure soon after we will be back to normal.

Fast transport links are not the solution anyway as I explained before, people living in Newcastle need to be able to get a job in Newcastle!, not commute to Sydney on a high-speed train in 45 minutes, because it doesn't matter how fast the train goes, the Newcastle resident's Sydney job application has likely already been automatically filtered out based on address.

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  viaprojects Chief Train Controller






Will believe it when I see it, everything Perrottet is saying has the potential to make NSW the best thing since sliced bread - unfortunately there is one little problem - there is a state election coming up in March. I'm sure soon after we will be back to normal.

ExtremeCommuter


not an issue .. march 2023 for the state .. fed is sometime 2022 .. and the party is over for the local ..

the race is on for the fed ..just don't see any benefit for the unemployed ..
  Yellow_ Beginner

Location: Sydney
(then just use the disagree emote matt)
(rest of post is referring to the first post)
More choice in where they live is a silly question. HSR is clearly shown to be from people moving from cities to cities, not villages to towns, look at ANY other network as an example. The existing network was designed to do these sorts of local trips serving minimal people, hence why the New Regional Fleet is such a far cry compared to the XPT or the Velaros shown in the 2017 mockups.
The cost of living in NSW WILL be changed by this, and for the better. Compare a Sydney to Melbourne XPT ticket, over $100! Yet, existing flights usually cost around $60. HSR will be a far more reliable and profitable service. Is it designed to cut down costs of living? NO. It's designed for good public transport.
Regional jobs will go up due to HSR, route14 has already debunked this.
The whole "car dependency" thing is completely based on a speculation about a feature that isn't even planned yet.


We've gotten to a point where Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Uzbekistan have high speed rail, yet we don't. This just feels like a big list of media gotcha points that can be easily debunked. I'm sorry, but this is just a stupid thread.
Griffinrails Official
Totally agree, HSR should have happened decades ago, the more we wait the more expensive it's going to be.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
(then just use the disagree emote matt)
(rest of post is referring to the first post)
More choice in where they live is a silly question. HSR is clearly shown to be from people moving from cities to cities, not villages to towns, look at ANY other network as an example. The existing network was designed to do these sorts of local trips serving minimal people, hence why the New Regional Fleet is such a far cry compared to the XPT or the Velaros shown in the 2017 mockups.
The cost of living in NSW WILL be changed by this, and for the better. Compare a Sydney to Melbourne XPT ticket, over $100! Yet, existing flights usually cost around $60. HSR will be a far more reliable and profitable service. Is it designed to cut down costs of living? NO. It's designed for good public transport.
Regional jobs will go up due to HSR, route14 has already debunked this.
The whole "car dependency" thing is completely based on a speculation about a feature that isn't even planned yet.


We've gotten to a point where Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Uzbekistan have high speed rail, yet we don't. This just feels like a big list of media gotcha points that can be easily debunked. I'm sorry, but this is just a stupid thread.
Totally agree, HSR should have happened decades ago, the more we wait the more expensive it's going to be.
Yellow_
The reality is that HSR, contrary to your wishful thinking, is not a viable option for the foreseeable future and it has been demonstrated to be so.  The $100 billion plus cost of public funding could be better spent on more worthy projects, rather than wasting it on a loss making white elephant, which would require significant ongoing government subsidies. The private sector wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

MSR is far more cost effective and would have greater benefit for the broader regional communities, rather than the benefit to the limited number of the larger regional centres along a HSR route.  MSR would also benefit both intra and interstate freight traffic, which HSR would not, as it is essentially a passenger service.

The proposition that HSR would encourage greater decentralisaton is a complete furphy, as the main motivator is the availability of local employment, which is already happening to some degree.  The cost of commuting on a regular basis between the regions and the respective CBDs would be prohibitive for all but except for the wealthy.

In the NSW context, the generally accepted commuter belt is from the Central Coast, Blue Mountains, Southern Highlands and Wollongong to the Sydney CBD, all of which are within 80kms.  Except for the Southern Highlands, they are on the electrified Intercity network.  Newcastle is double the distance from Sydney and is not regarded as being part of the commuter belt, although no doubt there would be some who travel on a regular if not daily basis.  It is also on the electrified Intercity network. HSR would not have any marginal benefit over MSR on the Newcastle-Sydney corridor for regular commuters, as the cost would be a disincentive.

The Newcastle/Hunter region with a population of around 600,000 already has a vast reservoir of employment opportunities, even with a potential slowdown in the coal mining sector, and it is large enough to be self sufficient without relying on commuter travel for jobs to Sydney.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Yeah I heard the news: https://newsconcerns.com/perrottets-plan-for-six-city-mega-region/

Will believe it when I see it, everything Perrottet is saying has the potential to make NSW the best thing since sliced bread - unfortunately there is one little problem - there is a state election coming up in March. I'm sure soon after we will be back to normal.
ExtremeCommuter

That election is in march 2023 and not this next march. There are some bi-elections that could change things beforehand but you are a year early on your state election theory.

There is however a federal election which will likely be in that time period....

If we put a couple of new bits of straight track in it could significantly help the rail system. We don't need to do a whole thing when all that is needed is just some little things and even just getting rid of level crossings so that trains don't have to worry about hitting cars and trucks will make a significant difference.
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

Totally agree, HSR should have happened decades ago, the more we wait the more expensive it's going to be.
Yellow_
As I mentioned on the original post:

-Will High Speed Rail give NSW residents more choice in where they live?
-Will High Speed Rail lower the cost of living in NSW?
-Will High Speed Rail create more jobs in regional NSW?
-Will High Speed Rail reduce car dependency?

The countries that have HSR, for the most part, have solved these problems, Australia hasn't, nor to we appear to be making any effort to try.




The proposition that HSR would encourage greater decentralisaton is a complete furphy, as the main motivator is the availability of local employment, which is already happening to some degree.  The cost of commuting on a regular basis between the regions and the respective CBDs would be prohibitive for all but except for the wealthy.

In the NSW context, the generally accepted commuter belt is from the Central Coast, Blue Mountains, Southern Highlands and Wollongong to the Sydney CBD, all of which are within 80kms.  Except for the Southern Highlands, they are on the electrified Intercity network.  Newcastle is double the distance from Sydney and is not regarded as being part of the commuter belt, although no doubt there would be some who travel on a regular if not daily basis.  It is also on the electrified Intercity network. HSR would not have any marginal benefit over MSR on the Newcastle-Sydney corridor for regular commuters, as the cost would be a disincentive.

The Newcastle/Hunter region with a population of around 600,000 already has a vast reservoir of employment opportunities, even with a potential slowdown in the coal mining sector, and it is large enough to be self sufficient without relying on commuter travel for jobs to Sydney.
Transtopic

Quite the furphy indeed - cost of living would also encourage decentralisation, but as it stands, regional housing has been limited ever since Sydneysiders discovered they could work from home, and even if one could get a house there with more space and cheaper than the small apartments in Sydney - the additional expensive reduced medicare, less small businesses, and the requirement to own more cars would probably put the cost of living on par with Sydney.

I would love to see a faster rail link between Sydney and Newcastle, but it would never encourage decentralisation, it doesn't matter how fast the train goes, applying for a Sydney job with a Newcastle address would probably see the application automatically rejected.
I used to travel the corridor quite frequently and another issues is when travelling from the Sydney end, even though I thoroughly enjoy the relaxing scenic train journey, I need to drive just due to the sheer difficulty of getting around Newcastle without a car, and this would not change with a faster rail link, even if the train journey took 5 minutes I would still need to drive, because navigating using local public transport can take 2 hours.
I still definitely support MSR though over the existing steam-ear alignment.

Newcastle definitely has a significant enough population to hold it's own, Wollongong too, but the government sees these places as country towns, and for as long as policy stays that way, even in the distant future, Australia will never be ready for HSR.
Admittedly it would have probably benefited those cities to be further from Sydney.


Yeah I heard the news: https://newsconcerns.com/perrottets-plan-for-six-city-mega-region/

Will believe it when I see it, everything Perrottet is saying has the potential to make NSW the best thing since sliced bread - unfortunately there is one little problem - there is a state election coming up in March. I'm sure soon after we will be back to normal.
That election is in march 2023 and not this next march. There are some bi-elections that could change things beforehand but you are a year early on your state election theory.

There is however a federal election which will likely be in that time period....

If we put a couple of new bits of straight track in it could significantly help the rail system. We don't need to do a whole thing when all that is needed is just some little things and even just getting rid of level crossings so that trains don't have to worry about hitting cars and trucks will make a significant difference.
simstrain
Oh it's in 2023, thanks for letting me know, when I voted on Saturday, I got told it was going to be next year in March, as well as May for the feds.
Seems strange that Perrottet is promising stuff so far from an election - bringing back signs for mobile speed cameras, expansion outside of Sydney to lower the cost of housing - seems like the amazing stuff that you would only hear when a state election is due.

I agree with you with the "couple of bits of straight track", if the train trip time was brought down to 7 (or even better 6) hours between Sydney and Brisbane, it could be competitive with flying for leisure travellers if the price was right, as I mentioned previously.
I can see consistently $50 CBD-CBD trip would be competitive with air travel for leisure travellers, as opposed to a $200 flight (although costs may decrease with Rex entering the market) + station access fees, and all the hassles of getting to the airport early, baggage limits, security, etc.

Business travellers would still obviously fly, but what would be the point in building such massive infrastructure in the form of HSR that only serves the wealthy, haven't' we seen enough with the stadiums, sports rots, and useless commuter car parks (doesn't matter how big we build them, they will always be full, take up land that could be used for housing, and use the same raw materials that could build more suburban stations - provided that we don't keep over-engineering them like on the SWRL or Metro).

Then use the money left over that would have been spent on HSR to increase resources outside of Sydney to lower living costs and spread housing demand, and then we might just be on track for NSW going from Australia's worst state (when considering living costs and resources) to one of it's best, and maybe in the distant future HSR may be viable.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Thought the economy was struggling from Covid?
Better off on a feasibility study on straightening out the steam era corridor with tunnels and bridges and utilize the standard gauge for 200km/h running.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
Allowing Australia's small population to become more dispersed and giving people the option to commute hundreds of kilometres daily would be an environmental disaster. Consolidation of existing infrastructure in existing cities is obviously a better option. Give the Newcastle inhabitants the option to move easily and work in Newcastle before tempting them to commute to Sydney.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

Allowing Australia's small population to become more dispersed and giving people the option to commute hundreds of kilometres daily would be an environmental disaster..
billybaxter


all ready have the issue with full car parks at the end points of a long rail trip as there is no parking or cheap properties in the sydney cbd ..  

Consolidation of existing infrastructure in existing cities is obviously a better option. Give the Newcastle inhabitants the option to move easily and work in Newcastle before tempting them to commute to Sydney.
billybaxter
 

not happening per sa .. high pay job and low living costs for the outer Sydney basin long trips .. even in Sydney you can spend alot of time on transport just to get to one end of your LGA..
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

Allowing Australia's small population to become more dispersed and giving people the option to commute hundreds of kilometres daily would be an environmental disaster. Consolidation of existing infrastructure in existing cities is obviously a better option. Give the Newcastle inhabitants the option to move easily and work in Newcastle before tempting them to commute to Sydney.
billybaxter
Exactly the reason we should be moving to faster rail. There is no need in Australia to live on top of each other, way up in the clouds.
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

Allowing Australia's small population to become more dispersed and giving people the option to commute hundreds of kilometres daily would be an environmental disaster. Consolidation of existing infrastructure in existing cities is obviously a better option. Give the Newcastle inhabitants the option to move easily and work in Newcastle before tempting them to commute to Sydney.
billybaxter
Exactly!!!!! unfortunately the government seems pretty adamant on doing exactly the opposite, as it stands, moving from one part of Newcastle to the other takes about half the amount of time as travelling all the way to Sydney,

this drives up the cost of living, Sydney real estate is expensive, but if I were to consider moving back to Newcastle, the cost of requiring an additional car, less small businesses which can offer cheaper products than big business, and having to pay a significant amount of money to pay for healthcare services that I can get bulk-billed in Sydney, makes it not worth it,

the worst part is that along the existing rail corridors in Newcastle, there is ample opportunity for development, but unfortunately since when there is anything of interest next to the railway lines in Newcastle, that is pretty much a guarantee that there WON'T be a station nearby, and if by any chance there was, there would be no pedestrian access,
because of this, suburban shopping centres such as those in Kotara and Glendale never become anything more than suburban shopping centres, whereas a nearby railway station could lead to development of more small business on the streets, and many nearby units,
as it stands you are usually looking at either $500/wk for a unit in Sydney, or $500/wk for detached in Newcastle, since the only units usually built in Newcastle are done so on the waterfront, they do nothing for the cost of living.

Fixing this uniquely-Australian issue might pave the way for a high speed rail link in the future, and what has been said about Newcastle could be said about Wollongong also, but not now, our secondary cities are a mess, and it's not like giving people a quicker commute to Sydney will help many job applications are filtered out atomically based on address anyway.


Allowing Australia's small population to become more dispersed and giving people the option to commute hundreds of kilometres daily would be an environmental disaster..
all ready have the issue with full car parks at the end points of a long rail trip as there is no parking or cheap properties in the sydney cbd ..  

Consolidation of existing infrastructure in existing cities is obviously a better option. Give the Newcastle inhabitants the option to move easily and work in Newcastle before tempting them to commute to Sydney.
not happening per sa .. high pay job and low living costs for the outer Sydney basin long trips .. even in Sydney you can spend alot of time on transport just to get to one end of your LGA..
viaprojects
We have full car parks at the start point of trips also, nor do we have any cheap properties Sydney's fringe.
That is because all new rail lines are being built as useless park&ride, and no matter how big we build the car parks, they are never big enough, just look at the size of Holsworthy, and if the one at Leppington was to extend any further back, we are going to need a station called 'Leppington Parking' at the other end!

Can't wrap my head around the fact that new properties are being built with 1 car space, yet two people are expected to work to pay the ridiculous rent prices, and the station is too far to walk and bus service virtually non-existent, Sydney has simply gotten too big and sprawling for it's own good.

We should be looking at moving some of those high paying business to places like Wollongong and Newcastle on the short-term, and in the long-term expending the population of places like Albury-Wodonga, Wagga, Port Macquarie, and Coffs Harbour through the provision of jobs and infrastructure.


Allowing Australia's small population to become more dispersed and giving people the option to commute hundreds of kilometres daily would be an environmental disaster. Consolidation of existing infrastructure in existing cities is obviously a better option. Give the Newcastle inhabitants the option to move easily and work in Newcastle before tempting them to commute to Sydney.
Exactly the reason we should be moving to faster rail. There is no need in Australia to live on top of each other, way up in the clouds.
Lockspike
No, like billybaxter said, it's exactly the reason we should be looking at consolidation of existing infrastructure in existing cities, faster rail would not automatically open up the Sydney labour market to Novocastrians, unless serious regulations were put on employers (which actually would not be a bad idea, whether or not one has a car or their commute time should be none of an employers business),


and on the other direction, if I wanted to visit Newcastle from Sydney, I would still need to drive, even if the train got me there in 1 hour, it would take about 1.5 hours to go from one part of Newcastle to another using local public transport.

Countries with have fast rail, including the United States, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Uzbekistan, have high speed links between established existing cities, in NSW we have one established existing city; Sydney, and then other cities with no infrastructure,
basically we have bigger fish to fry before we get fast rail.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller





Can't wrap my head around the fact that new properties are being built with 1 car space, yet two people are expected to work to pay the ridiculous rent prices, and the station is too far to walk and bus service virtually non-existent, Sydney has simply gotten too big and sprawling for it's own good.
ExtremeCommuter


blame the developers for the problem with large estates .. no option for a bus route let alone space to drive a car ..



We should be looking at moving some of those high paying business to places like Wollongong and Newcastle on the short-term, and in the long-term expending the population of places like Albury-Wodonga, Wagga, Port Macquarie, and Coffs Harbour through the provision of jobs and infrastructure.

ExtremeCommuter


some have moved west to parramatta , etc with public transport .. or the large industrial estates like in eastern creek with limited bus transport and a long walk .. so would not be taking sydney jobs to other areas with less options

one thing parramatta CBD is losing car parking due to metro station and the museum .. and no parking near the light rail ..
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

Can't wrap my head around the fact that new properties are being built with 1 car space, yet two people are expected to work to pay the ridiculous rent prices, and the station is too far to walk and bus service virtually non-existent, Sydney has simply gotten too big and sprawling for it's own good.
blame the developers for the problem with large estates .. no option for a bus route let alone space to drive a car ..
viaprojects
I do blame the developers and investors for building massive quantities of unliveable real estate (whether that be in the form of $1,000/wk or $1M detached houses in the middle of nowhere, or extremely small units with 1 car space located near useless park&ride stations).

BUT, local councils allow for it and state government actively encourages it by building over-engineered stations so far apart on new lines.

We should be looking at moving some of those high paying business to places like Wollongong and Newcastle on the short-term, and in the long-term expending the population of places like Albury-Wodonga, Wagga, Port Macquarie, and Coffs Harbour through the provision of jobs and infrastructure.
some have moved west to parramatta , etc with public transport .. or the large industrial estates like in eastern creek with limited bus transport and a long walk .. so would not be taking sydney jobs to other areas with less options

one thing parramatta CBD is losing car parking due to metro station and the museum .. and no parking near the light rail ..
viaprojects
Going to Parramatta and most certainly going to Eastern Creek is not going to help the situation that apparently high speed rail wants to solve, sure we have moved out of the Sydney CBD but we are still in Sydney itself -which means expensive real estate, and little to no choice to live elsewhere.

How is it that NSW can be 801,150 km2 across and we have ONE liveable city - as far as I am aware, this is a uniquely Australian issue, and that's why we can't just point at other nations and say 'look, they have high speed rail, why can't we'?

I think it's expected that CBD's generally won't have good parking, hence the need for quality public transport, meaning we have an issue in Sydney where in the newer suburbs, the stations are too far apart to walk to, but jobs are located in CBD's and can't be driven to.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller


BUT, local councils allow for it and state government actively encourages it by building over-engineered stations so far apart on new lines.
ExtremeCommuter


councils get bypassed and almost have no say until hand over under planning laws .. and your don't need the old station spacing of 1 to 2 kms between stations when you need a fast rail service ..



How is it that NSW can be 801,150 km2 across and we have ONE liveable city - as far as I am aware, this is a uniquely Australian issue, and that's why we can't just point at other nations and say 'look, they have high speed rail, why can't we'?
ExtremeCommuter


nsw has only just started the tunnel building .. sydney is a basin with 3 jokes with costs .. west - blue mountains - very long tunnel .. north - wet feet after any tunnel .. south - pick a route ..



I think it's expected that CBD's generally won't have good parking, hence the need for quality public transport, meaning we have an issue in Sydney where in the newer suburbs, the stations are too far apart to walk to, but jobs are located in CBD's and can't be driven to.
ExtremeCommuter


just wait  .. really pick a spot for transport ie west of paramatta ( can bump to blacktown ) you have buses and east you can walk to a station ..
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

BUT, local councils allow for it and state government actively encourages it by building over-engineered stations so far apart on new lines.
councils get bypassed and almost have no say until hand over under planning laws .. and your don't need the old station spacing of 1 to 2 kms between stations when you need a fast rail service ..
viaprojects
Well we are talking about suburban rail here, not fast rail (I understand it may be confusing on a topic about HSR lol), and if your suburban rail is skipping every second suburb, your not doing suburban rail service very well.

The only people benefiting from the far-apart station spacing, are those lucky enough to live within walking distance of one of the few stations, or lucky enough to car a park in the car park that is always full,
everyone else suffers from stations that are spaced so far apart, and would probably have an overall quicker trip time if they were closer together, even if the train takes aprox 10 minutes more to go from one end of the line to another.

For example, if you live at the end of Terry Road, Rouse Hill, even though the rail line passes right by your home, it's a 25 minute walk to the nearest station, and you had no hope of getting a park at the station, any time saved by spacing stations far apart has been no benefit to you, and actually, your journey will be longer than if the stations were closer together.

How is it that NSW can be 801,150 km2 across and we have ONE liveable city - as far as I am aware, this is a uniquely Australian issue, and that's why we can't just point at other nations and say 'look, they have high speed rail, why can't we'?
nsw has only just started the tunnel building .. sydney is a basin with 3 jokes with costs .. west - blue mountains - very long tunnel .. north - wet feet after any tunnel .. south - pick a route ..
viaprojects
How is building tunnels to Sydney going to make other cities in NSW liveable? it's the same logic as High Speed Rail? Will tunnels to Sydney allow one to get from one part of Newcastle to another without a car in a reasonable amount of time, will it enable one to get a job in Newcastle, will it allow one to see a doctor bulk-billed under Medicare? if the answer is 'no' to all of those then it, nor HSR, will make these cities liveable.

And before one says it, neither will it allow one to commute to and work in Sydney job applications are automatically filtered based on, among other things, one's home address and subsequent distance from work.


I think it's expected that CBD's generally won't have good parking, hence the need for quality public transport, meaning we have an issue in Sydney where in the newer suburbs, the stations are too far apart to walk to, but jobs are located in CBD's and can't be driven to.
just wait  .. really pick a spot for transport ie west of paramatta ( can bump to blacktown ) you have buses and east you can walk to a station ..
viaprojects
And how much does a property in these places go for?
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller


For example, if you live at the end of Terry Road, Rouse Hill, even though the rail line passes right by your home, it's a 25 minute walk to the nearest station, and you had no hope of getting a park at the station, any time saved by spacing stations far apart has been no benefit to you, and actually, your journey will be longer than if the stations were closer together.
ExtremeCommuter


30 mins is only 2 Km walk .. so you would have a bus route ( 1 km rule ) but some times it faster to walk .. i walk even with a bus stop around the corner also the 2 local station do not have parking ..

How is building tunnels to Sydney going to make other cities in NSW liveable? it's the same logic as High Speed Rail? Will tunnels to Sydney allow one to get from one part of Newcastle to another without a car in a reasonable amount of time, will it enable one to get a job in Newcastle,


your just trolling ... or never traveled the rail networks .. would say the 1 hour high speed rail sydney to newcastle topic is in the news last week ..  



And before one says it, neither will it allow one to commute to and work in Sydney job applications are automatically filtered based on, among other things, one's home address and subsequent distance from work.
ExtremeCommuter


get a life .. drive or train, there are train loads of people do the long commutes to pay the bills ..

And how much does a property in these places go for?


start looking at the million mark ..prices drop as you move away from the stations
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I'm having difficulty in following the line of this thread, but let's put one thing to bed once and for all.  Even if HSR were to be introduced, as distinct from FAST or FASTER Speed Rail, more commonly known as MEDIUM SPEED RAIL (MSR), it would essentially be a Regional rail service for irregular travellers, and not a daily commuter service.

The commuter belt connecting with the Sydney CBD, including employment centres like the Lower North Shore, Macquarie Park, Parramatta and the Central Industrial Area around Sydney Airport, is generally defined as the area bounded by the Central Coast, Blue Mountains, Southern Highlands and Wollongong, which are all approximately within 80km of the Sydney CBD.  Newcastle is 160km from the Sydney CBD and although there are undoubtedly some who commute on a regular basis, I don't regard it as being a part of the commuter belt, even with the advent of HSR or MSR.  

If and when HSR were to materialise, which I doubt, don't expect the fare structure to be similar to the existing regime.  It would be a premium service connecting regional centres with their respective capitals as well as connecting interstate capitals and the fare structure would be set accordingly.  To keep it competitive with air and coach travel, the fare structure would struggle to recover recurrent operating costs without government subsidy, let alone recover any capital cost.  It would be uneconomic for travellers beyond the current commuter belt surrounding Sydney for example to commute on a daily basis.  Those who want to live outside of the commuter belt requiring regular travel to Sydney would more likely need to find local employment, which is already happening in many of the major regional centres in NSW.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

I'm having difficulty in following the line of this thread, but let's put one thing to bed once and for all.  Even if HSR were to be introduced, as distinct from FAST or FASTER Speed Rail, more commonly known as MEDIUM SPEED RAIL (MSR), it would essentially be a Regional rail service for irregular travellers, and not a daily commuter service.
Transtopic


sorry - more of a faster service, better service for Gosford and Sydney deal  or blue mountains to parramatta / Sydney for the regular travelers



If and when HSR were to materialise, which I doubt, don't expect the fare structure to be similar to the existing regime.  It would be a premium service connecting regional centres with their respective capitals as well as connecting interstate capitals and the fare structure would be set accordingly. ....
Transtopic


old days - travel on a V set with the wrong ticket get kicked off the train .. any premium service is going to have a high cost and hard to police without staff to enforce with will place a higher fair charge to the customer ...

really there are sections of track that need upgrading or relocation for an upgrade .. would like the option of higher /faster standards for the new sections of track .. not just high cost repair a slow section of track
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

If and when HSR were to materialise, which I doubt, don't expect the fare structure to be similar to the existing regime.  It would be a premium service connecting regional centres with their respective capitals as well as connecting interstate capitals and the fare structure would be set accordingly.  To keep it competitive with air and coach travel, the fare structure would struggle to recover recurrent operating costs without government subsidy, let alone recover any capital cost.  It would be uneconomic for travellers beyond the current commuter belt surrounding Sydney for example to commute on a daily basis.  Those who want to live outside of the commuter belt requiring regular travel to Sydney would more likely need to find local employment, which is already happening in many of the major regional centres in NSW.
Transtopic

I agree with this. If it is built it is going to require the appropriate pricing and so don't expect your current pricing arrangement to occur. For instance expect to pay NSW trainlink regional levels of pricing at the very least where a one way ticket between Central and Maitland is $32.
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

How is building tunnels to Sydney going to make other cities in NSW liveable? it's the same logic as High Speed Rail? Will tunnels to Sydney allow one to get from one part of Newcastle to another without a car in a reasonable amount of time, will it enable one to get a job in Newcastle,
your just trolling ... or never traveled the rail networks .. would say the 1 hour high speed rail sydney to newcastle topic is in the news last week ..  

And before one says it, neither will it allow one to commute to and work in Sydney job applications are automatically filtered based on, among other things, one's home address and subsequent distance from work.get a life .. drive or train, there are train loads of people do the long commutes to pay the bills ..
viaprojects
No need to be rude....Nowadays I work from home and live in Sydney, but I used to travel by train between Newcastle and Sydney many times prior to Covid and made a few obversions:

  -trains left Central standing room only but had plenty of seats after leaving the Central Coast
  -most commuters were middle aged, not many people from younger generations could be seen commuting on these trains
  -Automating hiring software exists, I suggest you do some research on it, address is one of the things that can be used to filter out applications automatically, will we suddenly ban this (which wouldn't be a bad idea) after building HSR?


Sure projects that will help people who are already established move out of Sydney are great, as people who have already established rapport with their employers could move further out and commute on a theoretical HSR line, but future generations would continue to be screwed unless serious changes were made.

start looking at the million mark ..prices drop as you move away from the stations
viaprojects
It's the million mark away from the stations in places like Austral and Leppington, legacy suburbs like Blacktown and surrounds close to stations got for about 1.5m, neither price both close to the station and away from the station are sustainable for future generations,

not to mention that living away from both a station and decent bus service adds additional expense to both families and those working in CBD jobs which don't provide parking.

Sure one could buy a unit for much cheaper, but they are not suitable for families with 2 children.

And unfortunately moving of Sydney doesn't lower the cost of living much, what you save in real estate you lose in additional cars, lack of Medicare, and more expensive goods and services.

I'm having difficulty in following the line of this thread, but let's put one thing to bed once and for all.  Even if HSR were to be introduced, as distinct from FAST or FASTER Speed Rail, more commonly known as MEDIUM SPEED RAIL (MSR), it would essentially be a Regional rail service for irregular travellers, and not a daily commuter service.

The commuter belt connecting with the Sydney CBD, including employment centres like the Lower North Shore, Macquarie Park, Parramatta and the Central Industrial Area around Sydney Airport, is generally defined as the area bounded by the Central Coast, Blue Mountains, Southern Highlands and Wollongong, which are all approximately within 80km of the Sydney CBD.  Newcastle is 160km from the Sydney CBD and although there are undoubtedly some who commute on a regular basis, I don't regard it as being a part of the commuter belt, even with the advent of HSR or MSR.  

If and when HSR were to materialise, which I doubt, don't expect the fare structure to be similar to the existing regime.  It would be a premium service connecting regional centres with their respective capitals as well as connecting interstate capitals and the fare structure would be set accordingly.  To keep it competitive with air and coach travel, the fare structure would struggle to recover recurrent operating costs without government subsidy, let alone recover any capital cost.  It would be uneconomic for travellers beyond the current commuter belt surrounding Sydney for example to commute on a daily basis.  Those who want to live outside of the commuter belt requiring regular travel to Sydney would more likely need to find local employment, which is already happening in many of the major regional centres in NSW.
Transtopic
Topic has gone all over the place, sorry if it's been confusing, basically the way I see it is that Sydney is too expensive and other places in NSW are unliveable (801,150 km2 of land and ONE liveable city) due to lack of employment and resources, and this belief is for the most part, unanimous.


Things get a little more heated when a solution to the problem is discussed, most say build high speed trains to Sydney to allow people in other places to access the Sydney labour within a reasonable commute time, I say that won't work because even if the train practically teleported you there, automatic hiring software will still prevent you from gaining a Sydney job because your application will be filtered out based on address.

I say the solution is to make other places in NSW more liveable, and then maybe, just maybe, we can pave the way for HSR in future, because as it stands, people like to point out how Australia is the only continent without HSR, but I challenge those people to find me an example of a HSR line that runs between an established city and another city which has progressively had it's resources removed.


I generally agree with you in regards to the commuter belt not changing (even though for different reasons), and believe the solution is to provide more place for one to live independently from Sydney, Newcastle is a good example as it's outside the commuter belt,
Newcastle should be invested in as a cheaper alternative to Sydney, provide a local transport network, reinstate Medicare (up to the feds, not the state), and provide more affordable and a larger variety of housing.
Same goes for Wollongong, make it independent from Sydney as it's southern suburbs are outside of the commuter belt.

Both Newcastle and Wollongong have existing infrastructure in place for local transport networks, and existing suburbs could be made denser to support more affordable housing taking advantage of cheaper land outside of Sydney - as it stands in Newcastle real estate is the same price as Sydney but with more living space in the form of detached homes, meaning a unit in Newcastle should logically be cheaper than unit in Sydney, but because the only units in Newcastle are usually located near the CBD or on the waterfront (as opposed to out suburbs), this is not the case.

Doing this could be done for cheaper than HSR with much more broader and long-term benefits.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

And unfortunately moving of Sydney doesn't lower the cost of living much, what you save in real estate you lose in additional cars, lack of Medicare, and more expensive goods and services.

ExtremeCommuter

Most families in suburban Sydney have multiple cars per house and so this argument isn't even remotely relevant. I'm not sure what lack of medicare you are going on about? Newcastle has hospitals and GP's just like what is available in Sydney. It has shopping centres with chemists to provide medication the same as Sydney. They have the same supermarket stores and speciality stores like bing lee, harvey norman etc where you can buy white goods at the same price as Sydney. They have maccas, KFC and other food stores available with food priced the same as Sydney.
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

Most families in suburban Sydney have multiple cars per house and so this argument isn't even remotely relevant. I'm not sure what lack of medicare you are going on about? Newcastle has hospitals and GP's just like what is available in Sydney. It has shopping centres with chemists to provide medication the same as Sydney. They have the same supermarket stores and speciality stores like bing lee, harvey norman etc where you can buy white goods at the same price as Sydney. They have maccas, KFC and other food stores available with food priced the same as Sydney.
simstrain
I should have explained more but didn't want to go off topic if you know what I mean.

Most families in suburban Sydney have multiple cars yes, I don't think we will ever shake off the two-car family in Australia, but in Newcastle the four-car family is an issue, in Sydney Mum and Dad own their cars and Guy and Sheila can catch public transport and get their first job to save for their car, if Mummy and Daddy can't buy your car in Newcastle, your only hope is to move to shared accommodation in Sydney and find a job (and know that it's a one-way trip because if you move back to Newcastle because you couldn't find work, you won't even be allowed to get Centrelink for 6 months), even if you are willing to travel on the very limited public transport in Newcastle, employer's won't take it and filter out your application in the same away a Sydney employer would filter out an intercity commuter even if there was HSR.

As for Medicare, yes hospitals are still there but 9/10 GP's now require out-of-pocket payment as Medicare funding has been frozen by the feds in certain areas including Newcastle, found out the hard way when visiting earlier in the year and my partner needed to see a doctor.

Big business like Woolworths are obviously still there, but smaller business are not as the urban design isn't there, take a suburb like Liverpool in Sydney for example, you have the railway station, Westfield, apartment buildings, and enough foot traffic and real estate to support small business,
compare that to Kotara in Newcastle, you have Westfield, then the Homemaker centre, a wall in between them so you can't simply cross the road between the two, then the railway line with no station to get off a train here, then low-density residential on the other side of the railway line with no way to cross it, it's a mess! and there is no foot traffic to support small business who can't afford the rent inside Westfield.

Some of the smaller businesses in Sydney help keep living costs low, especially since Woolworths appears to have jacked up their prices since coming out of lockdown.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller



  -trains left Central standing room only but had plenty of seats after leaving the Central Coast
ExtremeCommuter


common with all lines .. number of hours in the day and the max speed of travel forces a end point .. faster train service will move the end point..  about 90 mins ..





-most commuters were middle aged, not many people from younger generations could be seen commuting on these trains
ExtremeCommuter


young stay in school longer up to 30 ish .. if they have a trade you will not see them on a train .. unless it's a weekend then it can be outside the peak commuter period ..


 -Automating hiring software exists, I suggest you do some research on it, address is one of the things that can be used to filter out applications automatically, will we suddenly ban this (which wouldn't be a bad idea) after building HSR?
ExtremeCommuter


um - we lie or omit due to the software for the last +25 years .. and no point looking up a phone number as most will post a mobile number or email address on the resume .. the software has bugs




Sure projects that will help people who are already established move out of Sydney are great, as people who have already established rapport with their employers could move further out and commute on a theoretical HSR line, but future generations would continue to be screwed unless serious changes were made.
ExtremeCommuter


current gen's are screwed .. just with housing and employment .. but rail takes a long time the build when / if the contracts are signed ..
  ExtremeCommuter Locomotive Fireman

 -trains left Central standing room only but had plenty of seats after leaving the Central Coast
common with all lines .. number of hours in the day and the max speed of travel forces a end point .. faster train service will move the end point..  about 90 mins ..
viaprojects
Theoretically yes that is true, and would have been true in reality prior to this day and age of the internet, but nowadays train speed is irrelevant thanks to automated hiring software, I can't imagine employers a re-code their software to factor in train speed as opposed to radial distance.

It's really silly when you think about it because someone who is taking a 2hr commute through suburban Sydney than someone commuting the equivalent distance via intercity train.

-Automating hiring software exists, I suggest you do some research on it, address is one of the things that can be used to filter out applications automatically, will we suddenly ban this (which wouldn't be a bad idea) after building HSR?
um - we lie or omit due to the software for the last +25 years .. and no point looking up a phone number as most will post a mobile number or email address on the resume .. the software has bugs
viaprojects
Home address is a little more difficult and complicated to lie about due to issues like identification checks and tax file declaration.

I am of the opinion that commute time and how someone gets work (whether car or public transport), people are forced into welfare dependence due to things like this.


Sure projects that will help people who are already established move out of Sydney are great, as people who have already established rapport with their employers could move further out and commute on a theoretical HSR line, but future generations would continue to be screwed unless serious changes were made.current gen's are screwed .. just with housing and employment .. but rail takes a long time the build when / if the contracts are signed ..
viaprojects
Most people are pretty unanimous in agreement that the the current gen is screwed, even Dominic Perrottet wants to expand the existing 3 city plan (you know there is a problem then the '3' city plan just involves 3 different areas of the one city) to a 6 city plan to include Wollongong, the Central Coast, and Newcastle, citing the situation for young people and affordable housing,
however I believe the same article involved someone talking about faster intercity rail - so even if the '6 city plan' went ahead, it would probably continue to screw over the future generation.



Redeveloping Wollongong and Newcastle into cheaper alternatives to Sydney could be done for much cheaper than any fast rail, as the rail corridors are in place, all we need is more frequent local services, infill stations at appropriate locations, and suitable development around stations.
  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

Home address is a little more difficult and complicated to lie about due to issues like identification checks and tax file declaration.

ExtremeCommuter


target is to get the job .. and get to the interview where you resolve issues ..

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