The corona virus COVID-19

 
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

I must admit the Canadian Govt has gone all totalitarian with the way they've treated the protesters and anyone who supported the protesters:


A dangerous abuse of power by the Canadian Govt.
Carnot
What a joke Carnot. So you are losing your mind on a protest that the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Ontario Trucking Association denounce the protests and 90% of all Canadian Truckers have been vaccinated.

But not a peep from you when the Sarah Everard vigil was violently broken up by Metropolitan Police officers in the UK.

Nothing wrong with protests at all, but a month long occupation of a capital city because some nutters do not agree with Vaccine mandates on Truckers. And if people like Tucker Carlson are in support of them you know they are just a bunch of tw@ts.

No where on earth would tolerate a month long occupation by large vehicles of their capital city, no one and you know this.

A dangerous abuse of power by the Canadian Govt.

Do me a favour, Carnot.


Mannie

Sponsored advertisement

  Carnot Minister for Railways

I must admit the Canadian Govt has gone all totalitarian with the way they've treated the protesters and anyone who supported the protesters:


A dangerous abuse of power by the Canadian Govt.
What a joke Carnot. So you are losing your mind on a protest that the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Ontario Trucking Association denounce the protests and 90% of all Canadian Truckers have been vaccinated.

But not a peep from you when the Sarah Everard vigil was violently broken up by Metropolitan Police officers in the UK.

Nothing wrong with protests at all, but a month long occupation of a capital city because some nutters do not agree with Vaccine mandates on Truckers. And if people like Tucker Carlson are in support of them you know they are just a bunch of tw@ts.

No where on earth would tolerate a month long occupation by large vehicles of their capital city, no one and you know this.

A dangerous abuse of power by the Canadian Govt.

Do me a favour, Carnot.


Mannie
BaysideManny
It is an abuse of power.  How would you feel if the Govt froze the bank accounts of anyone who supported Extinction Rebellion or GetUp?

Seriously!

Anyway, some sense of irony (or conspiracy if one is so inclined) here:
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

I haven’t confirmed the following from primary sources, so correct me if I’m wrong.

As I understand it, the Canadian Government has:
- declared a state of emergency
- branded the protestors Nazis
- shut down Parliament
- afaik, not spoken to the protesters
- frozen bank accounts of people who donated, without court order or due process
- given banks protection if they freeze accounts
- treated the protestors as terrorists, when the have been disruptive rather than destructive
- condoned the publication of hacked private information  
- used force to break up the demonstrations, including against journalists and observers
- moved or considered cancelling the vehicle insurance or registration of protestors.

… among other things.


Nothing to see here.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I haven’t confirmed the following from primary sources, so correct me if I’m wrong.

As I understand it, the Canadian Government has:
- declared a state of emergency
- branded the protestors Nazis
- shut down Parliament
- afaik, not spoken to the protesters
- frozen bank accounts of people who donated, without court order or due process
- given banks protection if they freeze accounts
- treated the protestors as terrorists, when the have been disruptive rather than destructive
- condoned the publication of hacked private information  
- used force to break up the demonstrations, including against journalists and observers
- moved or considered cancelling the vehicle insurance or registration of protestors.

… among other things.


Nothing to see here.
Sonofagunzel
The only fall-back is the vote in the Canadian Parliament on the State of Emergency.  Trudeau runs a minority Govt and won't necessarily get majority vote...

Either way, Trudeau is showing despotic tendencies.
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

I must admit the Canadian Govt has gone all totalitarian with the way they've treated the protesters and anyone who supported the protesters:


A dangerous abuse of power by the Canadian Govt.
What a joke Carnot. So you are losing your mind on a protest that the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Ontario Trucking Association denounce the protests and 90% of all Canadian Truckers have been vaccinated.

But not a peep from you when the Sarah Everard vigil was violently broken up by Metropolitan Police officers in the UK.

Nothing wrong with protests at all, but a month long occupation of a capital city because some nutters do not agree with Vaccine mandates on Truckers. And if people like Tucker Carlson are in support of them you know they are just a bunch of tw@ts.

No where on earth would tolerate a month long occupation by large vehicles of their capital city, no one and you know this.

A dangerous abuse of power by the Canadian Govt.

Do me a favour, Carnot.


Mannie
It is an abuse of power.  How would you feel if the Govt froze the bank accounts of anyone who supported Extinction Rebellion or GetUp?

Seriously!

Anyway, some sense of irony (or conspiracy if one is so inclined) here:
Carnot
It is an abuse of power.  How would you feel if the Govt froze the bank accounts of anyone who supported Extinction Rebellion or GetUp?

The only source you have is from some Partisan using Twitter. Sources please, like Reuters or NY Times, Washington Post, BBC, The Guardian.

The Guardian has reported that there are strong ties between some occupiers and the far right.

Canada’s public safety minister has warned of ties between protesters occupying the country’s capital and a group of far-right extremists who were charged earlier this week in the border town of Coutts, Alberta, over an alleged plot to kill police officers.

“Several of the individuals at Coutts have strong ties to a far-right extreme organization with leaders who are in Ottawa,” the minister, Marco Mendicino, told reporters on Wednesday.

The arrests on Monday came as police cleared a blockade at the border – one of a string of such protests mounted in support of the so-called freedom convoy occupation of Ottawa.

Police seized more than a dozen handguns and rifles, a cache of ammunition and body armour. Four of the arrested men are now accused of plotting to kill a number of Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers and civilians. The Guardian

Canada does not strike me as being an authoritarian state that would do such a thing for no reason. The UK, yes, China yes, Canada, no. The Canadian Government may well be targeting far-right racist organisations involved in the protests. That's a good thing isn't it? Freezing the accounts of far right racist activists is a good thing in my view, speaking as a man of colour who has endured his fair share of run ins with racists, whilst a resident in East London.

Like I said, if people like Tucker Carlson are in support of them you know they are just a bunch of tw@ts.



Mannie
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

I haven’t confirmed the following from primary sources, so correct me if I’m wrong.

As I understand it, the Canadian Government has:
- declared a state of emergency
- branded the protestors Nazis
- shut down Parliament
- afaik, not spoken to the protesters
- frozen bank accounts of people who donated, without court order or due process
- given banks protection if they freeze accounts
- treated the protestors as terrorists, when the have been disruptive rather than destructive
- condoned the publication of hacked private information  
- used force to break up the demonstrations, including against journalists and observers
- moved or considered cancelling the vehicle insurance or registration of protestors.

… among other things.


Nothing to see here.
The only fall-back is the vote in the Canadian Parliament on the State of Emergency.  Trudeau runs a minority Govt and won't necessarily get majority vote...

Either way, Trudeau is showing despotic tendencies.
Carnot
Strong and over-reactive if directed at ordinary protesters not linked to any far-right groups, yes.

Towards far-right militia groups, I hope the police and Canadian Forces stomp on them hard. Really hard. Preferably in the neck region.

Trudeau, despotic tendencies, now come on.


Mannie
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I haven’t confirmed the following from primary sources, so correct me if I’m wrong.

As I understand it, the Canadian Government has:
- declared a state of emergency
- branded the protestors Nazis
- shut down Parliament
- afaik, not spoken to the protesters
- frozen bank accounts of people who donated, without court order or due process
- given banks protection if they freeze accounts
- treated the protestors as terrorists, when the have been disruptive rather than destructive
- condoned the publication of hacked private information  
- used force to break up the demonstrations, including against journalists and observers
- moved or considered cancelling the vehicle insurance or registration of protestors.

… among other things.


Nothing to see here.
The only fall-back is the vote in the Canadian Parliament on the State of Emergency.  Trudeau runs a minority Govt and won't necessarily get majority vote...

Either way, Trudeau is showing despotic tendencies.
Strong and over-reactive if directed at ordinary protesters not linked to any far-right groups, yes.

Towards far-right militia groups, I hope the police and Canadian Forces stomp on them hard. Really hard. Preferably in the neck region.

Trudeau, despotic tendencies, now come on.


Mannie
BaysideManny
You've drunk the Antifa Kool-aid.

ie. Violent Antifa Thugs - "mostly peaceful protesters".  Regular people wanting their jobs back - "Terrorists who must be destroyed/stomped on really hard because they stood up to the WEF and Justin Trudeau".

Your bias is appalling.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

I haven’t confirmed the following from primary sources, so correct me if I’m wrong.

As I understand it, the Canadian Government has:
- declared a state of emergency
- branded the protestors Nazis
- shut down Parliament
- afaik, not spoken to the protesters
- frozen bank accounts of people who donated, without court order or due process
- given banks protection if they freeze accounts
- treated the protestors as terrorists, when the have been disruptive rather than destructive
- condoned the publication of hacked private information  
- used force to break up the demonstrations, including against journalists and observers
- moved or considered cancelling the vehicle insurance or registration of protestors.

… among other things.


Nothing to see here.
The only fall-back is the vote in the Canadian Parliament on the State of Emergency.  Trudeau runs a minority Govt and won't necessarily get majority vote...

Either way, Trudeau is showing despotic tendencies.
Carnot
Is Canadian Parliament sitting again?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I haven’t confirmed the following from primary sources, so correct me if I’m wrong.

As I understand it, the Canadian Government has:
- declared a state of emergency
- branded the protestors Nazis
- shut down Parliament
- afaik, not spoken to the protesters
- frozen bank accounts of people who donated, without court order or due process
- given banks protection if they freeze accounts
- treated the protestors as terrorists, when the have been disruptive rather than destructive
- condoned the publication of hacked private information  
- used force to break up the demonstrations, including against journalists and observers
- moved or considered cancelling the vehicle insurance or registration of protestors.

… among other things.


Nothing to see here.
The only fall-back is the vote in the Canadian Parliament on the State of Emergency.  Trudeau runs a minority Govt and won't necessarily get majority vote...

Either way, Trudeau is showing despotic tendencies.
Is Canadian Parliament sitting again?
Sonofagunzel
They just did.  Trudeau won the vote 185 to 151.  The Leftist New Democrats voted with the tyrant.  But credit to the Green Party leader for voting against it.

https://www.reuters.com/world/canadas-trudeau-calls-national-healing-after-truckers-blockade-over-covid-curbs-2022-02-21/
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

I haven’t confirmed the following from primary sources, so correct me if I’m wrong.

As I understand it, the Canadian Government has:
- declared a state of emergency
- branded the protestors Nazis
- shut down Parliament
- afaik, not spoken to the protesters
- frozen bank accounts of people who donated, without court order or due process
- given banks protection if they freeze accounts
- treated the protestors as terrorists, when the have been disruptive rather than destructive
- condoned the publication of hacked private information  
- used force to break up the demonstrations, including against journalists and observers
- moved or considered cancelling the vehicle insurance or registration of protestors.

… among other things.


Nothing to see here.
The only fall-back is the vote in the Canadian Parliament on the State of Emergency.  Trudeau runs a minority Govt and won't necessarily get majority vote...

Either way, Trudeau is showing despotic tendencies.
Strong and over-reactive if directed at ordinary protesters not linked to any far-right groups, yes.

Towards far-right militia groups, I hope the police and Canadian Forces stomp on them hard. Really hard. Preferably in the neck region.

Trudeau, despotic tendencies, now come on.


Mannie
You've drunk the Antifa Kool-aid.

ie. Violent Antifa Thugs - "mostly peaceful protesters".  Regular people wanting their jobs back - "Terrorists who must be destroyed/stomped on really hard because they stood up to the WEF and Justin Trudeau".

Your bias is appalling.
Carnot
You've drunk the Antifa Kool-aid.

Yet another pathetic slogan. If you can point to me supporting violent protests from left-wing groups, then I am all ears. I suspect you have nothing. Just like your slogan.

Your bias is appalling.

Of course it is to you. Because I do not share your bias. Yet another one who is arguing on something I have not said.

Strong and over-reactive if directed at ordinary protesters not linked to any far-right groups, yes.

The authorities reaction to ordinary people not linked to right wing militia groups was harsh I agree. I do not think that all protesters are terrorists. I can say this to you until I am blue in the face and you Carnot will never hear it.

Towards far-right militia groups, I hope the police and Canadian Forces stomp on them hard. Really hard. Preferably in the neck region.

But far-right militia groups are terrorists. If a few far-right racists get their necks broken then ho-hum. I do not care. G O O D. I take it you did not read about the bloody grief I got from these nutters. They would quite happily see people like me dangling from an end of a rope, simply because of the colour of my skin.

Yeah groups who infiltrate protests armed to the teeth are peaceful protesters? The Canadian Police had foiled a plot to kill ffs! I am not going to call you a RWNJ, but seriously Carnot. Far-right militia groups who are anti-Semitic and racist to the core and think that there is a plot to replace Caucasians are regular people just wanting their jobs back. And I am the biased one?

You really need to give your head a wobble.


Mannie
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The fact of the matter is that Trudeau's illiberalism only activated some crazy RWNJs who saw it as an opportunity to infiltrate the Trucker Convey.

If Trudeau wasn't so illiberal, and instead followed what many Scandinavian countries have recently done (i.e. drop Covid mandates etc), then there wouldn't be a State of Emergency.  But Trudeau is pig-headed and despotic.  Like a few other anglophone leaders I know...
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

The fact of the matter is that Trudeau's illiberalism only activated some crazy RWNJs who saw it as an opportunity to infiltrate the Trucker Convey.

If Trudeau wasn't so illiberal, and instead followed what many Scandinavian countries have recently done (i.e. drop Covid mandates etc), then there wouldn't be a State of Emergency.  But Trudeau is pig-headed and despotic.  Like a few other anglophone leaders I know...
Carnot
So because he has not followed what you think should be done he is despotic? And that far-right group plots are justified?

Seriously?

Mannie
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Manny, what’s your line between acceptable and unacceptable protest?

Your line seems to be left-right. Which puts BLM protests, BLM violence, Antifa,  and Occupy in the “acceptable” camp and the Freedom Convoy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

One of my lines is violence - non-violence. This puts BLM protests,  Occupy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Freedom Convoy in the “acceptable” camp and BLM violence, Antifa and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

I wonder if you can articulate a distinction between acceptable and unacceptable protest based on non-political criteria. You seem to be saying far-left ok, far-right not ok.

Incidentally, I also thought it was funny that you required independent evidence of Carnot’s contentions, and then your evidence was - wait for it - the Guardian, quoting - wait for it - a Canadian government minister.

Not only that, you accused Carnot of empty sloganeering, but then ignored all of the substantive points he and I made.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

If you can point to me supporting violent protests from left-wing groups, then I am all ears. I suspect you have nothing.
BaysideManny


In the 46th President thread, you said:

As much as I deplore the senseless looting and violence and despair at the 30 lives lost at the BLM Marches, to equate the BLM marches and the Jan 6th melee as you call it, is bogus. The BLM marches was a direct response to death of George Floyd, the countless number of innocent black people dying and they way that black people are treated at the hands of the police.
BaysideManny

You called them "marches", and appear to excuse the violence even though you say you deplore it.  Sounds like support to me.

And remember, in 2019 only nine unarmed black people were killed by the police in the US.  Nine too many, but hardly "countless".  My source is the Washington Post.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Even the Huffpost prophecied Trudeau's despotic end-game:
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Guess who was the last Canadian PM to invoke such emergency powers?

That’s right. Pierre Trudeau. Justin’s Dad. At least Pierre Trudeau had a real crisis.

Maybe Justin’s subconsciously trying to prove he’s just as powerful as his Dad.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Public Health Scotland has decided it doesn't want to release any official COVID19 information any more - because people use the data to come to the 'wrong conclusions'. ZeroHedge;

Public Health Scotland (PHS) is upset that critics are using its data to oppose Covid mandates and policies.  PHS believes that the anti-vaxxers are seizing on the data to undermine its case for continued mandates. One official is quoted as saying that “[t]he case rates, hospitalization rates, the death rates are very simple statistics” and critics are misreading the data “inappropriately and sometimes willfully.”

The solution? PHS will reportedly stop sharing the data with the public. It appears that it is not enough for companies like Twitter to ban critics from social media. Now, citizens will be protected not just from opposing views but information that will only confuse them.

So less information about the virus is now a good thing because it stops people reaching the wrong conclusions. Orwellian double-speak much...
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

If you can point to me supporting violent protests from left-wing groups, then I am all ears. I suspect you have nothing.


In the 46th President thread, you said:

As much as I deplore the senseless looting and violence and despair at the 30 lives lost at the BLM Marches, to equate the BLM marches and the Jan 6th melee as you call it, is bogus. The BLM marches was a direct response to death of George Floyd, the countless number of innocent black people dying and they way that black people are treated at the hands of the police.

You called them "marches", and appear to excuse the violence even though you say you deplore it.  Sounds like support to me.

And remember, in 2019 only nine unarmed black people were killed by the police in the US.  Nine too many, but hardly "countless".  My source is the Washington Post.
Sonofagunzel
Again Sonofagunzel, you totally ignore the whole sentence as per usual in your irritating patronizing way. I did say that I deplore the senseless looting and violence. But here you are accusing everyone who participated in the BLM marches of  carrying out looting and violence. Of which some 4,700 demonstrations took place.

You called them "marches", and appear to excuse the violence even though you say you deplore it.  Sounds like support to me.

Well I can't help your intelligence Sonofagunzel. If you want to say that I condone violence because I do not agree with you as regards to the 6th of Jan riots, well that is your problem.

And remember, in 2019 only nine unarmed black people were killed by the police in the US.  Nine too many, but hardly "countless".

Yeah hyperbole, guilty as charged. Does not change the fact though that a significant minority of Police treat blacks appallingly.


Mannie
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

Manny, what’s your line between acceptable and unacceptable protest?

Your line seems to be left-right. Which puts BLM protests, BLM violence, Antifa,  and Occupy in the “acceptable” camp and the Freedom Convoy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

One of my lines is violence - non-violence. This puts BLM protests,  Occupy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Freedom Convoy in the “acceptable” camp and BLM violence, Antifa and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

I wonder if you can articulate a distinction between acceptable and unacceptable protest based on non-political criteria. You seem to be saying far-left ok, far-right not ok.

Incidentally, I also thought it was funny that you required independent evidence of Carnot’s contentions, and then your evidence was - wait for it - the Guardian, quoting - wait for it - a Canadian government minister.

Not only that, you accused Carnot of empty sloganeering, but then ignored all of the substantive points he and I made.
Sonofagunzel
Manny, what’s your line between acceptable and unacceptable protest?

Have I said that any protest was unacceptable. No? And I am not going to explain myself again as regards to the 6th Jan riot in which you call a melee to the 4,700 BLM marches of which well over 95% were peaceful. And the vast majority who attended the BLM marches were not from the far-left.

Your line seems to be left-right. Which puts BLM protests, BLM violence, Antifa,  and Occupy in the “acceptable” camp and the Freedom Convoy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

Once again I cannot help your intelligence. Never condoned violence, and please tell me where I have mentioned Antifa or Occupy. And who said the Freedom Convoy cannot take place? This is what I have said.

So you are losing your mind on a protest that the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Ontario Trucking Association denounce the protests and 90% of all Canadian Truckers have been vaccinated.

But not a peep from you when the Sarah Everard vigil was violently broken up by Metropolitan Police officers in the UK.

Nothing wrong with protests at all. but a month long occupation of a capital city because some nutters do not agree with Vaccine mandates on Truckers.

I wonder if you can articulate a distinction between acceptable and unacceptable protest based on non-political criteria. You seem to be saying far-left ok, far-right not ok.

No, that is your take. I am progressive, but I do cannot stand the far-left. And why do you care that I do not think that the far-right is OK. Groups who want to do me actual harm? I can only go by experience. I have physically threatened by far-right groups, never by the far-left. If you have been threatened by members of the far-left, I can understand your hatred for them.  

The Sarah Everard vigil was in protest of the Met Police's handling of one of their officers, kidnapping, sexual assault and murder of a young woman in her prime. Hardly a political protest.

This is what I said

Strong and over-reactive if directed at ordinary protesters not linked to any far-right groups, yes.

The authorities reaction to ordinary people not linked to right wing militia groups was harsh I agree. I do not think that all protesters are terrorists. I can say this to you until I am blue in the face and you Carnot will never hear it.

Incidentally, I also thought it was funny that you required independent evidence of Carnot’s contentions, and then your evidence was - wait for it - the Guardian, quoting - wait for it - a Canadian government minister.

Of course you would. So a opinion tweet from a partisan is gospel in your eyes, but a Canadian Govt Minister who is probably relying on Intel is lying? Incidentally that news has also been reported by CBC, The Independent, Calgary Herald, The Globe and Mail. But hey Mainstream media.

Not only that, you accused Carnot of empty sloganeering, but then ignored all of the substantive points he and I made.

You've drunk the Antifa Kool-aid.

Is a pathetic empty slogan. Please point to where I have condoned far-left violence. Of course you and Carnot has taken on board every point that I have made. Give me a break.

If they are doing a blanket freeze on anyone who attends, then it is atrocious and really draconian. Trudeau has a lot to answer for.

But I have no problem with the Canadian Government freezing the bank accounts of far-right organizations and activists, at all. I have mentioned the reason why. People like that I have had severe trouble with in the UK. I do not expect you to understand. They would like to see nothing more than people like me swinging on the end of a rope. I think that is good enough reason why I do not give a damn about them. If they get stomped on hard, then tough. G O O D !!!!!


Mannie
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Christ Almighty, Manny.  Where to start?
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

If you can point to me supporting violent protests from left-wing groups, then I am all ears. I suspect you have nothing.


In the 46th President thread, you said:

As much as I deplore the senseless looting and violence and despair at the 30 lives lost at the BLM Marches, to equate the BLM marches and the Jan 6th melee as you call it, is bogus. The BLM marches was a direct response to death of George Floyd, the countless number of innocent black people dying and they way that black people are treated at the hands of the police.

You called them "marches", and appear to excuse the violence even though you say you deplore it.  Sounds like support to me.

And remember, in 2019 only nine unarmed black people were killed by the police in the US.  Nine too many, but hardly "countless".  My source is the Washington Post.
Again Sonofagunzel, you totally ignore the whole sentence as per usual in your irritating patronizing way. I did say that I deplore the senseless looting and violence.
BaysideManny
Yes, you did say that, and I didn't ignore it.

But you also said that "to equate the BLM marches and the Jan 6 melee ... is bogus".  You were arguing that Jan 6 was worse than the BLM riots, even though the BLM riots went for longer, killed more people, made more people afraid, had more opportunistic political support, used deadlier and more dangerous weapons, had more financial support, and had more far-reaching consequences than Jan 6.  

Why?  Because you agree with BLM's motivations.  You are making excuses for the violence - excuses that repeat incendiary lies and distortions.  You admit those reasons are hyperbole - yet you don't understand the significance of that.  

But here you are accusing everyone who participated in the BLM marches of  carrying out looting and violence. Of which some 4,700 demonstrations took place.
BaysideManny
No, I specifically and explicitly and repeatedly distinguished between the marches and the riots, and between the rioters and the protestors.

But you aren't!  You are still calling the BLM riots "marches".  Why do you find the distinction between protests and riots so elusive?

It's because your primary lens isn't "violence v non-violence", it's "my side v their side".


You called them "marches", and appear to excuse the violence even though you say you deplore it.  Sounds like support to me.

Well I can't help your intelligence Sonofagunzel. If you want to say that I condone violence because I do not agree with you as regards to the 6th of Jan riots, well that is your problem.
BaysideManny
I say you condone violence because you condone violence.  Explicitly, in this thread.

You are the one who said you want the Freedom Convoy "stomped on" and worse.  

You say you are limiting those comments to "far right militia", but who is deciding if they are in fact far right militia in the movement?  Which participants are far right militia?  Even if some of them are, what gives you or the government the right to stomp on them if they haven't committed violence?  Without due process.

You are advocating government violence against them for what you think their thoughts are.

That ideology has a name, Manny.

You have more in common with the far right than you realise.




And remember, in 2019 only nine unarmed black people were killed by the police in the US.  Nine too many, but hardly "countless".

Yeah hyperbole, guilty as charged. Does not change the fact though that a significant minority of Police treat blacks appallingly.
BaysideManny
I'm glad you acknowledge this.  Now you need to take the further step of realising the implications.  Now you need to realise the impact that such lies and distortions have, and the motivations of the people who peddle them.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Much of this has been answered in my immediately previous post, so I will confine this post to some extra points.

If you've think I've missed something important, repost it with the bits you think I've missed in bold.

Manny, what’s your line between acceptable and unacceptable protest?

Your line seems to be left-right. Which puts BLM protests, BLM violence, Antifa,  and Occupy in the “acceptable” camp and the Freedom Convoy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

One of my lines is violence - non-violence. This puts BLM protests,  Occupy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Freedom Convoy in the “acceptable” camp and BLM violence, Antifa and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

I wonder if you can articulate a distinction between acceptable and unacceptable protest based on non-political criteria. You seem to be saying far-left ok, far-right not ok.

Have I said that any protest was unacceptable. No?
BaysideManny
That's the problem!  You seem unable to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable protest.  

OK, let me ask it in a different way: can a protest go too far?  When?  Do you think that the BLM rioters should be jailed?

And I am not going to explain myself again as regards to the 6th Jan riot in which you call a melee to the 4,700 BLM marches of which well over 95% were peaceful. And the vast majority who attended the BLM marches were not from the far-left.
BaysideManny
Again, why can't you distinguish between riots and protests?  How do 4,465+ peaceful BLM marches somehow excuse the (up to) 235 BLM riots?

That's like saying that because Trump has held thousands of non-violent rallies, Jan 6 is ok because it only happened once.


Your line seems to be left-right. Which puts BLM protests, BLM violence, Antifa,  and Occupy in the “acceptable” camp and the Freedom Convoy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

Once again I cannot help your intelligence. Never condoned violence, and please tell me where I have mentioned Antifa or Occupy.
BaysideManny
You did condone violence.

I didn't say you mentioned Occupy or Antifa.  I'm trying to work out your criteria for acceptable v unacceptable protests.

And who said the Freedom Convoy cannot take place? This is what I have said.

So you are losing your mind on a protest that the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Ontario Trucking Association denounce the protests and 90% of all Canadian Truckers have been vaccinated.

But not a peep from you when the Sarah Everard vigil was violently broken up by Metropolitan Police officers in the UK.

Nothing wrong with protests at all. but a month long occupation of a capital city because some nutters do not agree with Vaccine mandates on Truckers.
BaysideManny
So what's the line?  Is it the length of time?  Is it that you think that they are nutters? What justifies them being stomped on?

I've no idea why Carnot should be expected to comment on every instance of police brutality and corruption.  Don't get me started on what I think of some elements of the UK police.

Strong and over-reactive if directed at ordinary protesters not linked to any far-right groups, yes.

The authorities reaction to ordinary people not linked to right wing militia groups was harsh I agree. I do not think that all protesters are terrorists. I can say this to you until I am blue in the face and you Carnot will never hear it.
BaysideManny
At least we agree that not all protestors are terrorists.

I can only go by experience. I have physically threatened by far-right groups, never by the far-left. If you have been threatened by members of the far-left, I can understand your hatred for them.  
BaysideManny
Once again, how do you know, how does the government know, who is from the far right?  How do you know they want to do you harm?  Why should they be stomped on, if they haven't committed violence?  

You seem to believe in collective guilt.  You want people in the Freedom Convoy stomped on because someone else in the UK has done you harm.

Incidentally, I also thought it was funny that you required independent evidence of Carnot’s contentions, and then your evidence was - wait for it - the Guardian, quoting - wait for it - a Canadian government minister.

Of course you would. So a opinion tweet from a partisan is gospel in your eyes, but a Canadian Govt Minister who is probably relying on Intel is lying? Incidentally that news has also been reported by CBC, The Independent, Calgary Herald, The Globe and Mail. But hey Mainstream media.
BaysideManny
You can't be this stupid.  

If you don't believe a tweet from a partisan on one side as evidence of Carnot's position, why do you expect him to believe the opinion of a political participant on the other side of the dispute?  

Do you believe a statement from Peter Dutton is independent corroboration of something Scott Morrison says?

Do believe Dutton's statement more if more papers report his opinion?

If they are doing a blanket freeze on anyone who attends, then it is atrocious and really draconian. Trudeau has a lot to answer for.

But I have no problem with the Canadian Government freezing the bank accounts of far-right organizations and activists, at all. I have mentioned the reason why. People like that I have had severe trouble with in the UK. I do not expect you to understand. They would like to see nothing more than people like me swinging on the end of a rope. I think that is good enough reason why I do not give a damn about them. If they get stomped on hard, then tough. G O O D !!!!!
BaysideManny
Without due process, Mannie.  

You want to punish some Canadians you disagree with because you had severe trouble with other people in the UK.  

You are in danger of being no better than them.
  BaysideManny Assistant Commissioner

Much of this has been answered in my immediately previous post, so I will confine this post to some extra points.

If you've think I've missed something important, repost it with the bits you think I've missed in bold.

Manny, what’s your line between acceptable and unacceptable protest?

Your line seems to be left-right. Which puts BLM protests, BLM violence, Antifa,  and Occupy in the “acceptable” camp and the Freedom Convoy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

One of my lines is violence - non-violence. This puts BLM protests,  Occupy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Freedom Convoy in the “acceptable” camp and BLM violence, Antifa and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

I wonder if you can articulate a distinction between acceptable and unacceptable protest based on non-political criteria. You seem to be saying far-left ok, far-right not ok.

Have I said that any protest was unacceptable. No?
That's the problem!  You seem unable to distinguish between acceptable and unacceptable protest.  

OK, let me ask it in a different way: can a protest go too far?  When?  Do you think that the BLM rioters should be jailed?

And I am not going to explain myself again as regards to the 6th Jan riot in which you call a melee to the 4,700 BLM marches of which well over 95% were peaceful. And the vast majority who attended the BLM marches were not from the far-left.
Again, why can't you distinguish between riots and protests?  How do 4,465+ peaceful BLM marches somehow excuse the (up to) 235 BLM riots?

That's like saying that because Trump has held thousands of non-violent rallies, Jan 6 is ok because it only happened once.


Your line seems to be left-right. Which puts BLM protests, BLM violence, Antifa,  and Occupy in the “acceptable” camp and the Freedom Convoy, the Jan 6 Trump rally and the Jan 6 riot on the “unacceptable” side.

Once again I cannot help your intelligence. Never condoned violence, and please tell me where I have mentioned Antifa or Occupy.
You did condone violence.

I didn't say you mentioned Occupy or Antifa.  I'm trying to work out your criteria for acceptable v unacceptable protests.

And who said the Freedom Convoy cannot take place? This is what I have said.

So you are losing your mind on a protest that the Canadian Trucking Alliance and the Ontario Trucking Association denounce the protests and 90% of all Canadian Truckers have been vaccinated.

But not a peep from you when the Sarah Everard vigil was violently broken up by Metropolitan Police officers in the UK.

Nothing wrong with protests at all. but a month long occupation of a capital city because some nutters do not agree with Vaccine mandates on Truckers.
So what's the line?  Is it the length of time?  Is it that you think that they are nutters? What justifies them being stomped on?

I've no idea why Carnot should be expected to comment on every instance of police brutality and corruption.  Don't get me started on what I think of some elements of the UK police.

Strong and over-reactive if directed at ordinary protesters not linked to any far-right groups, yes.

The authorities reaction to ordinary people not linked to right wing militia groups was harsh I agree. I do not think that all protesters are terrorists. I can say this to you until I am blue in the face and you Carnot will never hear it.
At least we agree that not all protestors are terrorists.

I can only go by experience. I have physically threatened by far-right groups, never by the far-left. If you have been threatened by members of the far-left, I can understand your hatred for them.  
Once again, how do you know, how does the government know, who is from the far right?  How do you know they want to do you harm?  Why should they be stomped on, if they haven't committed violence?  

You seem to believe in collective guilt.  You want people in the Freedom Convoy stomped on because someone else in the UK has done you harm.

Incidentally, I also thought it was funny that you required independent evidence of Carnot’s contentions, and then your evidence was - wait for it - the Guardian, quoting - wait for it - a Canadian government minister.

Of course you would. So a opinion tweet from a partisan is gospel in your eyes, but a Canadian Govt Minister who is probably relying on Intel is lying? Incidentally that news has also been reported by CBC, The Independent, Calgary Herald, The Globe and Mail. But hey Mainstream media.
You can't be this stupid.  

If you don't believe a tweet from a partisan on one side as evidence of Carnot's position, why do you expect him to believe the opinion of a political participant on the other side of the dispute?  

Do you believe a statement from Peter Dutton is independent corroboration of something Scott Morrison says?

Do believe Dutton's statement more if more papers report his opinion?

If they are doing a blanket freeze on anyone who attends, then it is atrocious and really draconian. Trudeau has a lot to answer for.

But I have no problem with the Canadian Government freezing the bank accounts of far-right organizations and activists, at all. I have mentioned the reason why. People like that I have had severe trouble with in the UK. I do not expect you to understand. They would like to see nothing more than people like me swinging on the end of a rope. I think that is good enough reason why I do not give a damn about them. If they get stomped on hard, then tough. G O O D !!!!!
Without due process, Mannie.  

You want to punish some Canadians you disagree with because you had severe trouble with other people in the UK.  

You are in danger of being no better than them.
Sonofagunzel
I've no idea why Carnot should be expected to comment on every instance of police brutality and corruption.  Don't get me started on what I think of some elements of the UK police.

That is one pretty big story and Carnot has made comments dismissing any arguments against the Met Police as woke.

Again, why can't you distinguish between riots and protests?  How do 4,465+ peaceful BLM marches somehow excuse the (up to) 235 BLM riots?
It does not, only you are saying that. All I am saying is that the BLM marches are not the cesspit of violent left wing activism that you seek to portray. And not condoning any rioting whatsoever and that all rioters should be face jail sentences to the fullest extent available, can you prove that those 235 riots were planned and that those rallies that had turned violent that every participant was involved in rioting?

That's like saying that because Trump has held thousands of non-violent rallies, Jan 6 is ok because it only happened once.

That's your reasoning.

Have I said that any protest was unacceptable. No?

Peaceful protests are acceptable, people rioting or instigating violence against the Police is not protesting, that is thuggery whether it is from the left or right.

You can't be this stupid.  

If you don't believe a tweet from a partisan on one side as evidence of Carnot's position, why do you expect him to believe the opinion of a political participant on the other side of the dispute?  


What? If that tweet came from a partisan group from the left, I would ignore it because its just a tweet. But I do believe in what the Canadian Broadcasting Company amongst others is reporting. Surely you can't be that stupid as to not understand. In any case isn't it you that always asks for evidence or is it only when it does not align to your views?

Do you believe a statement from Peter Dutton is independent corroboration of something Scott Morrison says?

Do believe Dutton's statement more if more papers report his opinion?


Again, what? The report was about an actual arrest that had taken place. Evidence was gathered and seized and arrests made. What the hell has Peter Dutton and Scott Morrison got to do with anything?

So what's the line?  Is it the length of time?  Is it that you think that they are nutters? What justifies them being stomped on?

Who said that nutters should be stomped on? Again trying to put your spin on what I have said. All right I should not have said nutters, but a month long blockade of a city centre is too much. That is no different to Extinction Rebellion sitting in the middle of freeways, and guess what happened, the Police moved them on and rightly so.

I have said that I will not shed a tear if far-right activists get stomped on.

You want to punish some Canadians you disagree with because you had severe trouble with other people in the UK.  You are in danger of being no better than them.

With love and respect, that is a pathetic answer. I disagree with many people, and I have no problem with that at all. But I do hate far-right groups who will be almost certainly racist. Sorry if that hurts your sensibilities, but as far as I am concerned but they will receive sweet fa in the way of respect from me. So if you characterize groups who are anti-Semitic, who believe that the Caucasian race is being replaced as a simple disagreement, then I cannot help you. Far-Right group is a far-right group is a far-right group. They are the same everywhere, racist, anti Semitic, anti LGBTI nut jobs. I and my family have been harassed to the point of physical violence by these groups. Nice to know that you think that I am as bad as actual racists.

Just give your head a little wobble.


Mannie
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

The Guardian has reported that there are strong ties between some occupiers and the far right.

Canada’s public safety minister has warned of ties between protesters occupying the country’s capital and a group of far-right extremists who were charged earlier this week in the border town of Coutts, Alberta, over an alleged plot to kill police officers.

“Several of the individuals at Coutts have strong ties to a far-right extreme organization with leaders who are in Ottawa,” the minister, Marco Mendicino, told reporters on Wednesday.

The arrests on Monday came as police cleared a blockade at the border – one of a string of such protests mounted in support of the so-called freedom convoy occupation of Ottawa.

Police seized more than a dozen handguns and rifles, a cache of ammunition and body armour. Four of the arrested men are now accused of plotting to kill a number of Royal Canadian Mounted Police officers and civilians.
Mannie
BaysideManny


Read that Guardian article again, Manny. This time more carefully.

Here's the link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/16/ottawa-blockade-strong-ties-extremists

Here's a clue: the word "ties" is almost always a weasel word that is used in smear campaigns.  You always need to read carefully to see what, exactly, those "ties" are.

Also, this is getting off topic.  I'll see if the mods want to move some of these posts to a new thread.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

If they are doing a blanket freeze on anyone who attends, then it is atrocious and really draconian. Trudeau has a lot to answer for.
BaysideManny
OK, we agree on that.

But I have no problem with the Canadian Government freezing the bank accounts of far-right organizations and activists, at all. I have mentioned the reason why. People like that I have had severe trouble with in the UK. I do not expect you to understand. They would like to see nothing more than people like me swinging on the end of a rope. I think that is good enough reason why I do not give a damn about them. If they get stomped on hard, then tough. G O O D !!!!!
BaysideManny
Without due process, Mannie?

Again, you seem to want to punish some Canadians you disagree with (about the vax mandates) because you had severe trouble with other people (racist thugs) in the UK.

All I am saying is that the BLM marches are not the cesspit of violent left wing activism that you seek to portray.
BaysideManny
No, but the BLM riots are.  Why do you keep conflating them?  Why do you keep raising the BLM marches when we are talking about the BLM riots?  Can't you tell the difference?  

And why do you conflate the Freedom Convoy with far-right wing violence?

And why is your reaction to BLM focussed on the peaceful protest, but your reaction to the Freedom Convoy focussed on far right wing violence - particularly given that there was basically no such violence during the Freedom Convoy.

I'm distinguishing between protest and riot in both cases.  You aren't.  Why?

And not condoning any rioting whatsoever and that all rioters should be face jail sentences to the fullest extent available, can you prove that those 235 riots were planned and that those rallies that had turned violent that every participant was involved in rioting?
BaysideManny
OK good.

But why is proof of prior planning or universal participation relevant or required?  Everyone who is proved in a court of law to have rioted should be jailed.

Is that your standard too?  Because you seem to be saying that the government can violently punish protestors, take away their livelihoods, and lock the bank accounts of their supporters - all without proof of anything and without any trial at all - because you think they might be far-right.  The due process part is missing.

Aren't you opposed to police brutality?

Peaceful protests are acceptable, people rioting or instigating violence against the Police is not protesting, that is thuggery whether it is from the left or right.
BaysideManny
OK good.  We are agreed on that.

All right I should not have said nutters, but a month long blockade of a city centre is too much. That is no different to Extinction Rebellion sitting in the middle of freeways, and guess what happened, the Police moved them on and rightly so.
BaysideManny
Did they have their livelihoods destroyed?  Were their supporters targetted with financial sanctions?  Were their civil rights suspended?  Were they retrospectively criminalised?

Did you think that Extinction Rebellion should be stomped on and have their necks broken?

What has happened in Canada, and what you seem to be advocating, is very different to what happened to Extinction Rebellion.
The Freedom Convoy was not just "moved on".

I have said that I will not shed a tear if far-right activists get stomped on.

You want to punish some Canadians you disagree with because you had severe trouble with other people in the UK.  You are in danger of being no better than them.

With love and respect, that is a pathetic answer. I disagree with many people, and I have no problem with that at all. But I do hate far-right groups who will be almost certainly racist. Sorry if that hurts your sensibilities, but as far as I am concerned but they will receive sweet fa in the way of respect from me. So if you characterize groups who are anti-Semitic, who believe that the Caucasian race is being replaced as a simple disagreement, then I cannot help you. Far-Right group is a far-right group is a far-right group. They are the same everywhere, racist, anti Semitic, anti LGBTI nut jobs. I and my family have been harassed to the point of physical violence by these groups. Nice to know that you think that I am as bad as actual racists.
BaysideManny
It doesn't hurt my sensibilities to punish violent extremists.  It's that the fact that you (and so many others) condone doing so without any evidence the person being punished has engaged in violent acts, and without any due process.  

You condone government violence on the basis of what the protestors think.  Even worse, you condone government violence on the basis of what you think they think.  

Are you really so one-eyed you can't see what precedent this has created for the way the government reacts to protest, and the way the media reports that reaction?

What do you think the next reactionary government in the US will do to the next civil rights movement?

Imagine if Trump had done to BLM supporters what Trudeau is doing to the Freedom Convoy supporters.

Sheesh, Manny.  This is huge.

Just give your head a little wobble.
BaysideManny
OK, now I'm curious.  What does that mean?

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