EV subsidy

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
1. It is not just Ample's website but other other articles and a video I embedded.

2. Is there any reason for water cooling other than fast charging? Also, as you mentioned Chinese makers, battery swapping has been a success in China.

3. If a fleet vehicle or taxi that does not have enough range to last each entire day, they will swap batteries at least once a day, in which case it could work just like swap & go. Another analogy is swapping horses as was done back in the horse and buggy days.

4. I call it misinformation because I cannot find one source saying so and because the whole point of battery swapping is to charge batteries slowly without the vehicle.

I checked Ample's website and I find no list. They say it can work with any electric car design, do you really think they would make a false statement on that site? That would be like false advertising.

It's not that I see battery swapping as an answer for all battery E.V range issues as it is completely unnecessary for vehicles with enough range to last an entire day. Currently the best solution is to just focus on applications best suited to electric vehicles of any kind. Those in an Australian rural area may be better off sticking to the internal combustion engined vehicles they already have, plenty of these are still in production, and look at it as if fast charging did not (yet) exist.
Where would you advocate electric cars under those circumstances? If you, under those circumstances, would advocate electric vehicles (including trolleybuses and trams as well as electric passenger cars) in cities and towns but not in an Australian rural area, then you should see why I said I'm not sure any electric car without a range extender would go well in rural Australia, especially in absence of in-motion charging.
If you would, under those circumstances, only advocate battery electric vehicles that have enough range to last an entire day on a single charge and can charge overnight (as well as straight electric vehicles like trolleybuses and most electric rail vehicles), that you must really doubt battery swapping altogether.

Or would you think battery swapping would, under those circumstances, be attractive even to private vehicle owners who would not go to swapping stations very often?

If you, under those circumstances, hardly advocate electric vehicles at all, then you might as well think battery electric vehicles are generally not viable without fast charging.
Myrtone
1. People talking about it doesn't make it economic sucessful

2. Water Cooking is requried to keep the battery cool under all conditions. I posted a detailed justification/link for water cooling and problems with Leaf even just parking on a hot day, did you not read it?

3. In 2018 I visited a city in China with an entire taxi fleet on EV, there was not battery swap. How far a day do you think Taxi's drive and why do you not accept that if like that city in China can put suitable systems in place other can do as well?

4.  Their website or promotional material has a list of suited vehicles.

ICE will continue for at least another decade. Considering where we were 12 years ago when the first Tesla hit the market there was zero acceptable that there would be a mass roll out planed within 15 years. Battery charge density is increasing all the time.

I've said many times now I don't see a future for battery swap. They seemed to be providing a limited solution for a limited number of models of EV's who will no doubt be upgraded in the future to larger and more robust battery technology.

What made EV's viable for mass roll out that is in process of happening is
- battery capacity
- charge density
- fast rate of recharge
- life of battery
- ability to drain the battery quickly and recharge quickly without a measurable negative impact on the battery life.

Without all of this, EV's will still be nothing more than a novelty in limited production.

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  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Look, you say Ample has a list of suitable vehicles, I then tell you I can't find it on their website and all you do say their website has it. I did not notice justification/link for for water cooling and problems with Leaf.

What about electric bikes (electric trikes too)? They have been viable for mass rollout without any need for fast charging, only:

- battery capacity
- charge density
- life of battery

Battery electric vehicles only driven slowly such as forklifts just need batteries that last long enough and enough battery density and capacity to run for an entire day on a single charge, probably the same with lawn tractors.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

3. Who owns the battery? Do you buy a car which includes the battery or to you buy a car without the battery cost and the battery costs are recovered as part of the battery swap costs? Great if there are no home charging as battery swap is like Gas 'n' go bottle exchange. But this falls over if battery swap only provides a portion of all charges. So if its MY $10,000 battery, would I want to simply swap it into a pool of god knows what condition batteries? If its the annual trip to the rel's, I may only need battery swap once a year? You then drive away from Battery swap with a battery with 50km less range, ouch!
RTT_Rules
Battery ownership was a major problem when Better Place went tits up.

The batteries were owned by Better Place, therefore becoming owned by its liquidators and leaving the car owners without batteries until Renault stepped in and bought a bunch of batteries from the liquidators for the owners.

4. Recharge rates. While in theory the battery's could be recharged slowly. In reality this is not an economic solution for Battery swap and they would want to recharge as quickly as possible to reduce inventory costs. For a Nissan Leaf thats about 1h. If you charge it over 2 hours you now need twice as many batteries and battery charge positions. This is not misinformation, this is simply economics.
RTT_Rules
And if they did attempt to support models other than the Leaf (perhaps with a different capacity or a different voltage) potentially another set of batteries again.

The dream of a battery swap station only taking up a couple of car parks’ worth of space is unachievable in reality, unless there are only a handful of batteries kept there and the rest shuttled off to a charging facility in a nearby warehouse. Something more like a medium sized service station is more realistic.

Ample gave a list of cars where it works for them. All others need to redesign their cars. So called adapators is not the solution it seems.
RTT_Rules
It raises the possibility that Ample need to look towards recruiting people who actually know a bit about cars.

To pick a few notable BEV examples, the original Tesla Roadster used a Lotus Elise chassis which would be very different to the soft roader chassis of a Hyundai Kona and different again to the GT chassis of the Porsche Taycan. A different chassis will dictate a different configuration of the internals, which in turn may result in many cars being impossible to ‘adapt’ for Ample use.

So far it seems to be just the Leaf and a superseded Kia seen in Ample imagery, so it’s no wonder that they are not exactly shouting from the rooftops about which cars are compatible.

Ample gave a list of cars where it works for them. All others need to redesign their cars. So called adapators is not the solution it seems. A car with a 200 kW's of motors needs fairly thick connections to the battery and ones that are bolted or welded together not simply pressed as in a confined space under the car a poor connection is receipe for very bad outcomes.
RTT_Rules
For the electrical connections you’d want cannon connectors or connectors secured by bolts, which would need to be within the capability of the battery swap robot as the human operator of the station wouldn’t be going anywhere near battery terminals unless the battery is proven to be fully discharged.

There would also be data connections involved, which would not have the same electrical safety implications at the battery swap station but which would still need to be secure enough to not come loose while driving.

Each of these connections, plus the physical mountings holding the battery packs (and car undertray) in place, will need to be rated for the wear and tear of repeated swapping. You don’t want to put drivers at risk of getting mown down by an electric truck on a highway because they hit one pothole too many.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Look, you say Ample has a list of suitable vehicles, I then tell you I can't find it on their website and all you do say their website has it. I did not notice justification/link for for water cooling and problems with Leaf.

What about electric bikes (electric trikes too)? They have been viable for mass rollout without any need for fast charging, only:

- battery capacity
- charge density
- life of battery

Battery electric vehicles only driven slowly such as forklifts just need batteries that last long enough and enough battery density and capacity to run for an entire day on a single charge, probably the same with lawn tractors.
Myrtone
The list of cars Ample supports is listed in a few publications.

Leaf - 24 kWh Gen 1 (read pathetic range), later version 40 kWh (read barely ok range) and now 60 kWh option (read starting to be practical)

Air cooled, Cannot be fast charged, takes close to 1h

Kia - 39 kW ( read pathetic range), 64 kW ( barely ok range)

Liquid cooled, can be faster charged on CCS, but still not fast and takes about 1h.

end of list

Again, some EV's like those listed above were not designed for the 150 kW charge rates and hence it takes close to 1hr to charge from 20 - 80%, the design of the battery would drive this. Being Air cooled would be a clear driver for slow charging and again I'll remind you that much of the industry has been very critical of Nissan for its air cooled approach with its known issues with heat and suitability for hot climates. Note the 60 kWh model roll out was initially limited to milder climates for a reason.

Anyone who has been to China in recent years knows almost everything with 2 or 3 wheels is now electric. Easy to do with a Totalalian govt. Make a rule and people comply. Battery swap for these vehicles is in a whole different class of its own. The battery is man handable and can be run from a small shop.

Battery swap technology for cars in China I believe was mandated. Probably more important in China due to majority of population living in apartments. So its a means to electrify quickly and reducing the cost of EV's as China imports all its oil and would be seen as a means to help mostly disconnect China from the Global oil industry. Note China mandated some years back that its heavy truck fleet be LNG only. In 5 cities over 2 weeks I saw just one truck operating on diesel.

Our electric forklift simple gets put on charge when not in use, such as lunch time. Same applies for many EV operators.

Once again, Battery swap is a solution looking for a problem and EV's with decent battery technology simply don't need it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
In other news,

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-02-14/electric-vehicle-first-ev-chargers-v2g-v2h-to-arrive-australia/100811130

Australia is finally catching up with the introduction of home chargers where the EV can be used as a home battery during times of peak loads.

With the states now being getting the required powers to switch off Solar PV feed-in to the grid when there is surplus power this will encourage both this and/or home battery technology roll out. Going forward domestic and light commerical power users will be increaisngly exposed to grid spot prices.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Indeed Battery Swap is not needed by vehicles that have enough range to last an entire day. If there is any use, then it is for vehicles that don't have enough range to last an entire day. According to this blogpost, NIO customers love battery swapping, and even gave it as a reason for favouring NIO over Tesla.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Indeed Battery Swap is not needed by vehicles that have enough range to last an entire day. If there is any use, then it is for vehicles that don't have enough range to last an entire day. According to this blogpost, NIO customers love battery swapping, and even gave it as a reason for favouring NIO over Tesla.
Myrtone
Good for them.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
It changed that blogger's mind on battery swapping, has it changed your mind? It could easily work for fleets of commercial vehicles and taxis, such fleets are often already homogenous.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It changed that blogger's mind on battery swapping, has it changed your mind? It could easily work for fleets of commercial vehicles and taxis, such fleets are often already homogenous.
Myrtone
Or just get a vehicle with a larger battery and charge it when not in use!
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Yes, having a vehicle with enough range to last an entire day and charging during downtime is the best option. Even if it has enough range to last a full day with only slow charging and only during downtime, in-built batteries seem incredibly stupid, batteries are not fuel tanks.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yes, having a vehicle with enough range to last an entire day and charging during downtime is the best option. Even if it has enough range to last a full day with only slow charging and only during downtime, in-built batteries seem incredibly stupid, batteries are not fuel tanks.
Myrtone
Many of the newer EV's have large enough range to eliminate the problem that battery swap is trying to solve on lessor standard EV's.

While Dubai Taxi's may average 1000 km/d because the major roads all have speed limits of 100 - 140 km/h, I very much doubt the average Australian taxi comes anywhere near that. Stop start traffic is also better for EV's. Even at 24h a day to get that 1000km/day, the car is still idle for 2-3h a day for driver breaks, plenty of time to recharge the battery. Which is how the Chinese and other actually manage the problem. ie fast charge the car in 30-45 min while the driver is eating his/her burger.

In a car with a 100 kWh battery, it already has a range of around 500 km. Assume working 12h shift, you would struggle to drain that in a shift in an Australian city taxi. Add a few stops for meal breaks while recharging at same time and job done.

Even a Leaf E+ with its 60 kWh battery is good for +300km, but it has a slow charge rate due to its air cooled battery technology, so battery swap would benefit this car battery technology. However as stated by others, the key problem with battery swap is that you buy the car new, you go to battery swap and bang, you get given some old life expired battery and your +300 km range is now 200 - 250 km, which may force you to use battery swap more often.


For me battery swap is only viable if the battery is owned by battery swap, such as "gas'n'go" LPG bottles and the batteries come with a minimum charge capacity guarantee. Otherwise I have no interest in paying $50k for a new EV, just to have my brand new battery lost to a pool of who knows what. Also battery swap your battery, say good buy to your battery warranty.

All in all, I want to buy an EV in the next 5 years, but I have no interest in buying a new or near new EV and swapping that near new battery, even if capable to do so.  

Yes battery's are just like fuel tanks, they just operate differently. Stated before and posted links, fast charging batteries designed for it which most cars are, does not have a measurable negative impact on the battery and there are rapid aged EV's with batteries to prove it. If its a business, then its a lease car and the business doesn't give a crap anyway as the car is off-loaded at 3-4 years so who cares anyway?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I have the opposite opinion to you Myrtone.

I will never voluntarily step inside an electric car which does not have the batteries securely fitted, all connections securely fitted and a proper permanently fitted undertray. They just aren’t safe.

Look at the Tesla Model S fires and the recalls that followed to see why. Following a number of spectacular failures, they were required to fit a permanent undertray to make the vehicles roadworthy.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I have the opposite opinion to you Myrtone.

I will never voluntarily step inside an electric car which does not have the batteries securely fitted, all connections securely fitted and a proper permanently fitted undertray. They just aren’t safe.

Look at the Tesla Model S fires and the recalls that followed to see why. Following a number of spectacular failures, they were required to fit a permanent undertray to make the vehicles roadworthy.
justapassenger
Not sure how the batteries are wired to the car, but if pure 2 pole DC, even a small 250 kW motor at 400 V is 500 amps. My experience is mostly with 7000 to 100,000 amp connections and we bolt or weld this stuff. 500 amps is 3 x bigger than a battery connection for a diesel engine. Just cannot imagine how not bolting it is reliable over time, but happy to be corrected. Tesla's for example are 3 x this.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I will never voluntarily step inside an electric car which does not have the batteries securely fitted, all connections securely fitted and a proper permanently fitted undertray. They just aren’t safe.
justapassenger
Does that mean you would never voluntarily step inside a vehicle with swappable batteries? How about an undertray that can be removed at a station, as shown in the videos, it is simply unscrewed and rescrewed. By the way, check out how popular battery swapping, at least for scooters, is becoming in Taiwan, battery swapping stations are soon to surpass petrol pumps there.
This is in a democratic country, by the way.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I will never voluntarily step inside an electric car which does not have the batteries securely fitted, all connections securely fitted and a proper permanently fitted undertray. They just aren’t safe.
Does that mean you would never voluntarily step inside a vehicle with swappable batteries? How about an undertray that can be removed at a station, as shown in the videos, it is simply unscrewed and rescrewed. By the way, check out how popular battery swapping, at least for scooters, is becoming in Taiwan, battery swapping stations are soon to surpass petrol pumps there.
This is in a democratic country, by the way.
Myrtone
Scooters are pi$$ easy and yes same exists elsewhere.

- Batteries are mostly the same as the bikes are basically the same.
- The bike is open and easy access
- The battery is human removalable.
- The battery voltage is lower

For a car system
- Can the battery be removed from under the car? (hint not all can)
- The battery ways 200 - 500 kg and hence requires expensive and complex equipment, not some dude operating from a grass hunt
- Batteries vary
- Cooling systems and other connections to manage
- Much higher amps and issues with their connections if you get it wrong
- The car voltage is higher

Q, does battery swap in cars exist for water cooled models?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
There are other reasons why battery electric traction is easier to apply to scooters than to cars. Even for scooters, battery swapping is still only attractive if they don't have enough range to last an entire day.
If an undertray is only bolted, then it is possible to just remove the screws with special equipment and put them back after the swapping is done as shown in a video above. Any vehicle batteries should somehow be removable, what I mean before is that a completely irremovable undertray would be stupid, batteries are not fuel tanks.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
There are other reasons why battery electric traction is easier to apply to scooters than to cars. Even for scooters, battery swapping is still only attractive if they don't have enough range to last an entire day.
If an undertray is only bolted, then it is possible to just remove the screws with special equipment and put them back after the swapping is done as shown in a video above. Any vehicle batteries should somehow be removable, what I mean before is that a completely irremovable undertray would be stupid, batteries are not fuel tanks.
Myrtone
Motor bike batteries are small, easily swapped, cars are not and there are other technical issues as mentioned.

Swapping battery for that car is done that way, not all. The labour cost for changing life expired batteries is not a few bucks, rather upwards of $1000, hence its not that straightforward.

All EV batteries are removal, just not plug and play removalable.

Having changed a fuel tank or two, I'm fairly confident the 10kg fuel tank is more straight forward.
- disconnect the fuel and return lines,
- disconnect the fuel sender unit (level gauge)
- disconnect the breather (not always required)
- Remove four mounting screws or bolts
- drop the tank

Fuel tanks in some cars would be changed more often than a EV battery in the cars life as the tanks are exposed and easily damaged, hence I had to replace a Suzuki swift fuel tank after running or rather rolling over a large rock. Most EV's will go to the grave with the same battery.

Again, an EV battery weights 200 - 500 kg, has high current and high voltage cable connectors, sensors, cooling systems etc.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I've been thinking a bit about EV subsidies and how ridiculous they are.

Kia have mentioned that there's a 3 year waiting list for their new EV6 car.  This is a $60-85k car. Why subsidize a luxury product that's in very short supply and uses huge resources to manufacture it?  It doesn't make any sense.

Subsidizing the cost of Electric bikes has merit though, IMO.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I've been thinking a bit about EV subsidies and how ridiculous they are.

Kia have mentioned that there's a 3 year waiting list for their new EV6 car.  This is a $60-85k car. Why subsidize a luxury product that's in very short supply and uses huge resources to manufacture it?  It doesn't make any sense.

Subsidizing the cost of Electric bikes has merit though, IMO.
Carnot
I'm not a big fan on the need to subsidise what is mostly for now upper end model cars, although I think they may have capped it in some states.

Forcus should be on helping get charging infrastrure out there.
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

I've just now realised that if you have a plug-in hybrid vehicle, you pay the road user charge based on total kilometres. Doesn't matter if you never plug it in, doesn't matter if the car can only do 10km on battery and 700km on a tank of petrol. What a brilliantly fair system.

PS: I don't have one yet, I only just realised because I looked at buying one and did some quick googling.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I've just now realised that if you have a plug-in hybrid vehicle, you pay the road user charge based on total kilometres. Doesn't matter if you never plug it in, doesn't matter if the car can only do 10km on battery and 700km on a tank of petrol. What a brilliantly fair system.

PS: I don't have one yet, I only just realised because I looked at buying one and did some quick googling.
Madjikthise
Its still a hybrid so there is regen.

Agree its not perfect, we need to move to 100% distance x mass based charging system for all vehilces and remove the fuel excise tax. GST will however remain.
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

I've just now realised that if you have a plug-in hybrid vehicle, you pay the road user charge based on total kilometres. Doesn't matter if you never plug it in, doesn't matter if the car can only do 10km on battery and 700km on a tank of petrol. What a brilliantly fair system.

PS: I don't have one yet, I only just realised because I looked at buying one and did some quick googling.
Its still a hybrid so there is regen.

Agree its not perfect, we need to move to 100% distance x mass based charging system for all vehilces and remove the fuel excise tax. GST will however remain.
RTT_Rules
Yeah but that's the problem, both have regen. If your car doesn't have a plug you don't pay, but if it has a plug you pay even if you don't plug in.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I've just now realised that if you have a plug-in hybrid vehicle, you pay the road user charge based on total kilometres. Doesn't matter if you never plug it in, doesn't matter if the car can only do 10km on battery and 700km on a tank of petrol. What a brilliantly fair system.

PS: I don't have one yet, I only just realised because I looked at buying one and did some quick googling.
Its still a hybrid so there is regen.

Agree its not perfect, we need to move to 100% distance x mass based charging system for all vehilces and remove the fuel excise tax. GST will however remain.
Yeah but that's the problem, both have regen. If your car doesn't have a plug you don't pay, but if it has a plug you pay even if you don't plug in.
Madjikthise
Not a big fan of this and I understand your point, meanwhile the road still needs to be paid for. I suppose the best answer, plug it in when you can.

For post people, if pluged in when at home, they will use very little fuel.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria

Motor bike batteries are small, easily swapped, cars are not and there are other technical issues as mentioned.
RTT_Rules
Being smaller they may not take as long to charge, so it would be a paradox to have battery swapping for bikes but not cars.

Swapping battery for that car is done that way, not all. The labour cost for changing life expired batteries is not a few bucks, rather upwards of $1000, hence its not that straightforward.
RTT_Rules
That seems like an inconsistent thought. Plenty of portable devices have provision to replace batteries yet you say charging those of electric cars is not straightforward, this is inconsistent given what you say about

Having changed a fuel tank or two, I'm fairly confident the 10kg fuel tank is more straight forward.
- disconnect the fuel and return lines,
- disconnect the fuel sender unit (level gauge)
- disconnect the breather (not always required)
- Remove four mounting screws or bolts
- drop the tank
RTT_Rules
I thought fuel tanks were welded. Certainly both car and motorcycle fuel tanks are surely harder to replace than bike batteries or especially those in a lot of portable devices.

Fuel tanks in some cars would be changed more often than a EV battery in the cars life as the tanks are exposed and easily damaged, hence I had to replace a Suzuki swift fuel tank after running or rather rolling over a large rock. Most EV's will go to the grave with the same battery.
RTT_Rules
I thought fuel tanks generally lasted the lifetime of the vehicles, after all, they do not have chemicals like the ones in batteries that react when charged and discharged.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Motor bike batteries are small, easily swapped, cars are not and there are other technical issues as mentioned.Being smaller they may not take as long to charge, so it would be a paradox to have battery swapping for bikes but not cars.

Swapping battery for that car is done that way, not all. The labour cost for changing life expired batteries is not a few bucks, rather upwards of $1000, hence its not that straightforward.
That seems like an inconsistent thought. Plenty of portable devices have provision to replace batteries yet you say charging those of electric cars is not straightforward, this is inconsistent given what you say about

Having changed a fuel tank or two, I'm fairly confident the 10kg fuel tank is more straight forward.
- disconnect the fuel and return lines,
- disconnect the fuel sender unit (level gauge)
- disconnect the breather (not always required)
- Remove four mounting screws or bolts
- drop the tank
I thought fuel tanks were welded. Certainly both car and motorcycle fuel tanks are surely harder to replace than bike batteries or especially those in a lot of portable devices.

Fuel tanks in some cars would be changed more often than a EV battery in the cars life as the tanks are exposed and easily damaged, hence I had to replace a Suzuki swift fuel tank after running or rather rolling over a large rock. Most EV's will go to the grave with the same battery.
I thought fuel tanks generally lasted the lifetime of the vehicles, after all, they do not have chemicals like the ones in batteries that react when charged and discharged.
Myrtone
The charge rate is dependent on the battery kA rate and cooling technology, not its size. ie You can charge a 100kWh Tesla battery in just over 30min and you can also charge 5 kW motor sooter battery in the same time frame if it won't over heat, but unlikely faster.

We are talking about a 300 - 500 kW battery with complex cooling systems, not changing the battery on a torch.

Fuel tanks are not welded into the car, bolted and I've seen some strapped in. When you have changed an actual fuel tank or two, then maybe I'll actually be interested in discussing this further before this is pointless.

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