The 'renewable' energy thread -

 
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
You people live in a fantasy world that just isn't real.
Tautology at its best.
Steady on. Don's fantasy world is VERY real! Laughing
DirtyBallast
All you have is semantics... but what else is new.

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
You people live in a fantasy world that just isn't real.
Tautology at its best.
Steady on. Don's fantasy world is VERY real! Laughing
All you have is semantics... but what else is new.
don_dunstan

Pot, Kettle, Black... once more.

M.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Pot, Kettle, Black... once more.

M.
The Vinelander
I've made some really valid points about the unreliability of wind-power (in particular) and you respond with 'but they're building a really huge one in the Otways'.

That does NOT solve the problem of the actual power source being unreliable - if the wind isn't blowing then none of it works and we're all forced to import electrons from thousands of kilometres away at great expense losing much of the power and ASSUMING the wind is blowing in those places - which it might not be.

Do you seriously not understand that?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Australia is a massive nation, true, and we can have huge amounts of rain as QLD and NSW have seen recently but it's been relatively settled for quite a while in my part of the nation. The most common weather pattern is a high pressure system lingering around the centre/eastern seaboard causing things to be relatively calm.

It's interesting watching the NEM site because after a while you see the weather and daylight patterns reflected in how the power is being distributed - it's a really very fickle and unpredictable thing as they found out in the UK last year. We don't have a connection to any other electricity networks though, NEM is entirely by itself, so I see that as a major danger. Many, many more times redundancy has to be built into this system to make it completely insular from the variations of the climate - and its going to be way too expensive by the time they finally pad that into your average grid user's power price. Bottom line.


We need nuclear base-load, it's the only answer I can think of if we aren't allowed to burn our own coal.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You're talking about routing power nearly 2,000km from Tasmania and Snowy Hydro to South Australia for the sake of an imaginary carbon monster - not only is that really inefficient losing several percent on the way but its vulnerable to storm events and solar flare. Even things like hot sunshine can expand the lines and cause them to lose more power.

It's really stupid from a technical standpoint to be so reliant on a grid where power traverses such huge distances.
..bla bla bla
Who said anything about Tas - Snowy - SA? Please get with the program.

So what happens now when there are solar flares and hot sunshine?

What happens when there are storms now?

The stupidity is in the quote above. Nothing more, nothing less.

The usual strategy the renewable energy advocates use to muddy the water is to make grand claims about the rated capacity of renewable energy projects COMBINED and then act as if they do that output all the time.

As they've discovered in the UK the total output of a wind farm is usually just a fraction of its rated capacity - in fact some have been consistently producing less than ten percent of what they're rated at - in which case they're so unreliable and have such meaningless output that they might as well have not been built. We are talking about what happens at night and in times of 'wind and solar drought', which is when the national grid will be under the most stress particularly early evening.

We're 'lucky' today here in South Australia, a cool change has broken the wind drought experienced over the last three days and wind has decided to show up for work today - however it's overcast so the solar farms are having their turn to call in sick. You also continually make misleading claims about things like the SA Tesla battery - it cannot (and is not designed to) replace grid power because it can only run at maximum output for less than an hour. Renewables almost never - NEVER - get to generate what their plated capacity is so please don't quote those figures, they're meaningless.
again
You have a strong history of making equally grand claims and muddying the water.

Everyone knows what the wind farm rating is and how its calculated. They are not consistently less than 10%, the ones in Scotland have a history of 40 - 50% of name plate capacity.

Wind is far more reliable as some of the comments in the quote. Wind works very well when partnered with hydro, pumped hydro and despatchable peaking power. Its been suppling over 40% of SA for narly 5 years and with it the whole sale prices have been consistently dropping each year as a result.

Again, the 1000 MW direct connection of SA to the Snowy Hydro Grid in NSW is to enable SA to have access to the reserve capacity of all snowy hydro, while at the same time the hydro network is a repositry for the surplus wind and solar from SA.

Evern grids without RE have variable sources of supply due to other factors such as maintainence. Because SA has wind you just now pay attention.

What misleading claims and when have I made them about the SA grid battery's?

When was the last time Liddel or Hazellwood operated at name plate? Yet meanwhile I can go to the solar and wind farms data and see that it does happen. However, like any large generator then will nearly always be something off line for maintainence or repair.

Snowy 2.0 cannot possibly replace reliable coal-fired power plants like Loy Yang - for reasons that I've already cited on this board.

The Conversation.

Again, you're confusing rated output with how much they're actually going to produce. Snowy 2.0 needs energy put into it in order to have an output, it's not a power station. What happens during a wind drought when the 'battery' can't be charged? You people live in a fantasy world that just isn't real.
..waffle
No, you have never stated reasons, you have made up rubbish.

I know exactly what Snowy 2.0 is, but the question is more, do you really understand the project design scope as it sounds very much like you don't? Hint, I mentioned part of it further up.

2nd hint, while you were waffling on about how SA solar has taken the day off, meanwhile in NSW, yes that same state SA is going to have a 1000 MW connection too, there was a surplus of power and the whole sale price was at one point -$2.20 /MWh, that minus $2.20 /MWh. Amazing to see a solution being built to solve a problem.

The HV link isn't specfically just to connect to snowy 2.0, but rather the whole snow scheme and the NSW grid and by extension the Qld grid which is also having an ungraded link to the snowy area. It will make more effective use of the existing pumped Tumut 3 system which is frequently under uterlised as well as bring on Snowy 2.0 and allow more effective use of any localised RE surplus that has started to become an issue as RE projects contiue to be completed including roof top solar.

Simple solution, its all about the big picture. Not a narrow view of whats just in front of you.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Australia is a massive nation, true, and we can have huge amounts of rain as QLD and NSW have seen recently but it's been relatively settled for quite a while in my part of the nation. The most common weather pattern is a high pressure system lingering around the centre/eastern seaboard causing things to be relatively calm.

It's interesting watching the NEM site because after a while you see the weather and daylight patterns reflected in how the power is being distributed - it's a really very fickle and unpredictable thing as they found out in the UK last year. We don't have a connection to any other electricity networks though, NEM is entirely by itself, so I see that as a major danger. Many, many more times redundancy has to be built into this system to make it completely insular from the variations of the climate - and its going to be way too expensive by the time they finally pad that into your average grid user's power price. Bottom line.


We need nuclear base-load, it's the only answer I can think of if we aren't allowed to burn our own coal.
don_dunstan
Rather, the only answer you want to think of.

I'm not against nuclear, but on cost it a dead horse unless you have nothing else.

The NEM solar input in March is around 12 GW, total load about 24 - 28 GW, with around 30% of houses with solar and continued growth at current rates will see this double by 2025 and hence closer to 2030 the NEM should reliably be 100% solar dependent for 6h a day, more in summer, less in winter with surplus to recharge pumped hydro and both grid and home battery storage.

Wind is obviously far less regular, but overall the input is never zero and with geographic averaging will contribute a min of 10% of the grid at anyone time, but capable of supporting much more provided there is amble storage.  Wind will however contribute about 30 -40% overall.

Again we get back to pumped hydro storage and non pump hydro which with snowy 2.0 will be around +/- 3.0 GW of swing load, some for 8hr, most for up to a week. Traditional hydro is 0 - 5 GW swing load.

Is this enough for 100% replacement of coal? no!
Does it need to be within the next 10 -15 years? no!
Will peaking combined fuels be part of the mix for the next 15-20 years? Most certainly!
How much will peaking combiend fuels be to the total annual average supply?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Who said anything about Tas - Snowy - SA? Please get with the program.
RTT_Rules
You did.  You said this:
A few corrections - 30 % of power you are importing tonight is actually RE (assuming no dilution from Tas, which there is)
RTT_Rules
If Victoria is importing and is SA is importing electrons from Victoria then presumably some of those electrons have made it all the way from Tassie.

And you were wrong that night anyway, VIC was nowhere near 30% renewables at that time, Victoria has never made it that high from what I've seen.

Snowy hydro is a farce, you're losing 60%+ of the energy you put into it.
What misleading claims and when have I made them about the SA grid battery's?
RTT_Rules
You've said they can power grids and clearly they can't. Even the head of AGL said it was technically impossible.
You have a strong history of making equally grand claims and muddying the water.
RTT_Rules
All you ever do is make these fantastic claims about the resilience of renewable energy that are simply not true. Overseas experience in Germany, the UK, Canada and the United States has shown over and over again that too much reliance on renewables is too expensive and too unreliable.

Nothing I say will change your bigoted mind so I might as well finish here.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Who said anything about Tas - Snowy - SA? Please get with the program.
You did.  You said this:
A few corrections - 30 % of power you are importing tonight is actually RE (assuming no dilution from Tas, which there is)
If Victoria is importing and is SA is importing electrons from Victoria then presumably some of those electrons have made it all the way from Tassie.

And you were wrong that night anyway, VIC was nowhere near 30% renewables at that time, Victoria has never made it that high from what I've seen.

Snowy hydro is a farce, you're losing 60%+ of the energy you put into it.
What misleading claims and when have I made them about the SA grid battery's?
You've said they can power grids and clearly they can't. Even the head of AGL said it was technically impossible.
You have a strong history of making equally grand claims and muddying the water.
All you ever do is make these fantastic claims about the resilience of renewable energy that are simply not true. Overseas experience in Germany, the UK, Canada and the United States has shown over and over again that too much reliance on renewables is too expensive and too unreliable.

Nothing I say will change your bigoted mind so I might as well finish here.
don_dunstan
Wrong, I never did. Yes some power occasionally will cross two state borders, happens with coal, will happen with Re. Much better to travel 1000 km via wires there anyway than having generation capacity sitting there waiting for a rainy day and this is irrelevent for RE. Had the states had better connections in days gone by there would be less under used peaking capacity.

Vic average for last 7 days was 31% RE, yesterday around time of my post it was around 30.6%

SNowy 2.0 65% loss? Clearly you cannot read your own links, its the other way round.

Batteries power micro grids, hydro which is effectively a large battery supply macro grids, its all about the size. Chemical batteries are getting bigger, technology of battery may change, but the capability battery running grids won't.

Canada is 65% RE.

Others, mistakes are made regardless of energy source and certainly mistakes were made with RE, many I have previously highlited as political stupidity and stand by that. However the pathway forward is now more sensible, practical, economic and robust. We only have to look back in time in Australia at the stuff ups long before RE.

Regarding your comment
"...your bigoted mind.."
You can @#$% right off with your ongoing personal insults. I told you a few weeks ago enough, so I'm now telling you in language you may actually understand. As far as any reference to bigot is concerned, you should perhaps read your own posts once in a while, pick any tread. If you debate doesn't have a leg to stand on, then don't bother posting, there is no need to drag yourself down to such dead#@$ levels and destroying yet another thread and RP in general.  Remove that line and I'll delete this paragraph, deal?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Wrong, I never did. Yes some power occasionally will cross two state borders, happens with coal, will happen with Re. Much better to travel 1000 km via wires there anyway than having generation capacity sitting there waiting for a rainy day and this is irrelevent for RE. Had the states had better connections in days gone by there would be less under used peaking capacity.

Vic average for last 7 days was 31% RE, yesterday around time of my post it was around 30.6%
RTT_Rules
As I write brown coal is providing 83% of Victoria's energy needs.

Where is solar and wind when you actually NEED it during peak times?
SNowy 2.0 65% loss? Clearly you cannot read your own links, its the other way round.
RTT_Rules
It's even more than that actually - by the time the electricity is generated from windmills, transmitted to the project, used to pump the water up the hill and eventually harvested as electricity again - the loss is well over 60%. It's nowhere near as efficient as the promoters have touted.
Canada is 65% RE.
RTT_Rules
You'll have to get a link for that because the figure I've seen is less than ten percent. That's from Environment Canada by the way.
Regarding your comment "...your bigoted mind.." You can @#$% right off with your ongoing personal insults. I told you a few weeks ago enough, so I'm now telling you in language you may actually understand. As far as any reference to bigot is concerned, you should perhaps read your own posts once in a while, pick any tread. If you debate doesn't have a leg to stand on, then don't bother posting, there is no need to drag yourself down to such dead#@$ levels and destroying yet another thread and RP in general. Remove that line and I'll delete this paragraph, deal?
RTT_Rules
You are bigoted against the very thing that's made this nation wealthy - coal. Coal isn't going anywhere - we export something like $55 billion worth of the stuff every year to keep feeding Asia - almost 200 being constructed. It's just plain stupid to think that having a little renewable festival here in Australia will make a difference to the final outcome - it can't. Your bigotry against fossil fuels is irrational - they cant' be replaced. We will have nation-wide blackouts if coal is completely removed from the system.

Incidentally I noticed you changed my name to "bla bla bla" and "waffle" further up the page.

You are a hypocrite who can dish it out but can't take it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
As I write brown coal is providing 83% of Victoria's energy needs. Where is solar and wind when you actually NEED it during peak times?
Somebody
I said average. You said never. Do you want to see when its +50%?

Peak is a known issue that is solved by hydro. Lost count of how many times we have todl you hydro is a buffer for RE as well as coal and gas.

It's even more than that actually - by the time the electricity is generated from windmills, transmitted to the project, used to pump the water up the hill and eventually harvested as electricity again - the loss is well over 60%. It's nowhere near as efficient as the promoters have touted.
Somebody Again
Actually no. It was around 40% when all up. Similar issues exist today. However if the power is cheap enough and available enough it all adds up. Right now there is basically free power most days for a few hours and growing. How much energy is rerquired to keep spinning reserve in operation? Or how much thermal energy is wasted at low outputs or using inefficent peaking output?

You'll have to get a link for that because the figure I've seen is less than ten percent. That's from Environment Canada by the way.
Somebody again again
There is more to RE than a wind turbine. Hydro is also RE and wind and solar effective boost hydro capability at lower cost /MWh produced by their equivalent output.
There wind output is 2/3 of that of Australia but grew significantly in 2021 so will come closer in 2022, so clearly they don't have an issue.

You are bigoted against the very thing that's made this nation wealthy - coal.

Coal isn't going anywhere - we export something like $55 billion worth of the stuff every year to keep feeding Asia - almost 200 being constructed.

It's just plain stupid to think that having a little renewable festival here in Australia will make a difference to the final outcome - it can't. Your bigotry against fossil fuels is irrational - they cant' be replaced. We will have nation-wide blackouts if coal is completely removed from the system.

Incidentally I noticed you changed my name to "bla bla bla" and "waffle" further up the page. You are a hypocrite who can dish it out but can't take it.
Somebody again again again
So trying to twist your previous comments to save yourself.

I have no issue with coal, I just recognise that its use use as fuel source for electricty generation is in decline as its yesterdays technology as alternatives become economically and practically available. The rate of its decline depends alot on local factors.

You are also putting all coal into the one commodity basket and there are still processes today that use coal for other than electrifcty generation for which there are no or limited alternatives.

You have thrown around alot of numbers of what you think is being built in Asia, unfortunately much of its is false or misleading.

You think the renewal festible is just in Australia. Even the middle east is building RE and having 2030, 2040 and 2050 commitments on reducing their oil consumption. Yes its still available for sale, nothing wrong with that.

Your comments of what you think I think is simply stupid. Yesterday I posted what I think, you here you are today posting what you think I think. Why don't you simply stop miss quoting people to suit your argument?

Nationwide blackouts? Surely you are dreaming. We have gone from 94% fossil fuel to 66% YTD in 13 years or 1/3 the life of a coal power station. Where are the blackouts? if not now, at what level will they start to occur because if its say 30%, we can using your own words keep phasing coal out down to those levels without blackouts, correct!

Incentently I never changed your name, the system comes up as "somebody", after which I need to change the name. So I simply typed in what I thought the comment was worth. I made no personal attack to you! You can critise and call my post rubbish or what ever you like all day long, see if I care. Its a railway forum, nothing more, nothing less, nothing is supposed to be serious, personal or abusive. I will however care when you make it personal and you frequently do and not just to me. Myself and others (going by posts in another thread on this topic) are sick of interesting topics being dragged into the mud because of this and RP posters are in the decline in part because of it.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
As I write brown coal is providing 83% of Victoria's energy needs. Where is solar and wind when you actually NEED it during peak times?
I said average. You said never. Do you want to see when its +50%?

Peak is a known issue that is solved by hydro. Lost count of how many times we have todl you hydro is a buffer for RE as well as coal and gas.
RTT_Rules
So why isn't hydro providing peak capacity right now?
Actually no. It was around 40% when all up. Similar issues exist today. However if the power is cheap enough and available enough it all adds up. Right now there is basically free power most days for a few hours and growing. How much energy is rerquired to keep spinning reserve in operation? Or how much thermal energy is wasted at low outputs or using inefficent peaking output?
RTT_Rules
No, simply not correct, way inefficient by the time you extract energy from the system again. MOST of the energy you put into it you lose - law of thermodynamics kinda thing.
There is more to RE than a wind turbine. Hydro is also RE and wind and solar effective boost hydro capability at lower cost /MWh produced by their equivalent output. There wind output is 2/3 of that of Australia but grew significantly in 2021 so will come closer in 2022, so clearly they don't have an issue.
RTT_Rules
You didn't answer the question. Is that because you made the statement that Canada had this 65% re-newables - and then discovered it was wrong?

My money is on that. Proven categorically wrong, hung by your own petard - but can't admit to it. As usual.
So trying to twist your previous comments to save yourself. I have no issue with coal, I just recognise that its use use as fuel source for electricty generation is in decline as its yesterdays technology as alternatives become economically and practically available. The rate of its decline depends alot on local factors. You are also putting all coal into the one commodity basket and there are still processes today that use coal for other than electrifcty generation for which there are no or limited alternatives. You have thrown around alot of numbers of what you think is being built in Asia, unfortunately much of its is false or misleading. You think the renewal festible is just in Australia. Even the middle east is building RE and having 2030, 2040 and 2050 commitments on reducing their oil consumption. Yes its still available for sale, nothing wrong with that. Your comments of what you think I think is simply stupid. Yesterday I posted what I think, you here you are today posting what you think I think. Why don't you simply stop miss quoting people to suit your argument? Nationwide blackouts? Surely you are dreaming. We have gone from 94% fossil fuel to 66% YTD in 13 years or 1/3 the life of a coal power station. Where are the blackouts? if not now, at what level will they start to occur because if its say 30%, we can using your own words keep phasing coal out down to those levels without blackouts, correct! Incentently I never changed your name, the system comes up as "somebody", after which I need to change the name. So I simply typed in what I thought the comment was worth. I made no personal attack to you! You can critise and call my post rubbish or what ever you like all day long, see if I care. Its a railway forum, nothing more, nothing less, nothing is supposed to be serious, personal or abusive. I will however care when you make it personal and you frequently do and not just to me. Myself and others (going by posts in another thread on this topic) are sick of interesting topics being dragged into the mud because of this and RP posters are in the decline in part because of it.
RTT_Rules
So saying that your comments are 'bla bla bla' or 'waffle' would NOT be a personal attack on you? Rubbish, you're just changing the rules to suit yourself. Again with the rules that you don't apply to yourself.

Do you have a single shred of evidence that Asia is NOT building 200 coal-fired power plants? Of course you don't, what am I saying.

Australia is more or less guaranteed to have blackouts once we hit 50% renewables - that's a ceiling that they've discovered overseas time and time again. Only we don't have emergency HV cables to French nuclear electricity - so blackouts are a certainty.

Anyway, I'll wait here for that link that shows that Canada is running on 65% renewable energy. Although it won't come of course because you're wrong, like nearly everything else that you write - loaded with supposition, un-referenced and WRONG.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
More ridiculous comments from the resident R....oops...

A guarantee cannot be more or less...moreover you are merely speculating but hoping against hope that you are correct with your wacky assumptions...

Talk about grasping at straws to support a dying argument, from a contributor who knows nothing about energy generation, but insists the science and the renewable energy industry are completely wrong.

So what's wrong with that picture...and I risk getting reported yet again for stating the bleeding obvious and not providing links to support my post. What's the point of posting evidence when that evidence is already overwhelming...even by your beloved Murdoch media

Mike.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
More ridiculous comments from the resident R....oops...

A guarantee cannot be more or less...moreover you are merely speculating but hoping against hope that you are correct with your wacky assumptions...

Talk about grasping at straws to support a dying argument, from a contributor who knows nothing about energy generation, but insists the science and the renewable energy industry are completely wrong.

So what's wrong with that picture...and I risk getting reported yet again for stating the bleeding obvious and not providing links to support my post. What's the point of posting evidence when that evidence is already overwhelming...even by your beloved Murdoch media

Mike.
The Vinelander
The problem is that you lack a basic understanding of what's going on - so instead of actually contributing meaningfully to this thread you want to call names, defer to those who supposedly know better etc etc.

Like Carnot, I encourage you to actually research what's going on so that you can comment about what's going on here instead of just carping away about how the 'experts are right, leave it to the experts'.

For example, we've been discussing the Snowy Hydro II project - do you even fully understand what the project is, how much it has cost and what the expected outcomes are? Seems like you don't - and yet here you are yet again telling me that you know better and that the evidence is overwhelming.

Overwhelming for what - the fact that it's yet another dud green project gone five times over budget and many years late?

Educate yourself, you'll be surprised what you might discover.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Bald Hills VIC wind farm will not be allowed to operate at night after a landmark court ruling - ABC;

A Victorian court has ordered a wind farm in the state's south east to stop emitting noise at night in a momentous court decision.

The Victorian Supreme Court today found the noise from the Bald Hills Wind Farm at Tarwin Lower created a nuisance to its neighbours ordering damages and an injunction.

John Zakula and Noel Uren took civil action against the wind farm last year, telling the court that "roaring" intermittent noise from the wind turbines caused health problems and loss of sleep.

In a precedent-setting decision, Justice Melinda Richards said the company had not complied with its noise permit conditions and ordered a permanent injunction over the wind farm, with an initial three-month period to fix the issue.

The injunction will require the Bald Hills operators to "take necessary measures to abate" emitting loud noise at night.

"Bald Hills has not established that the sound received at either Mr Uren's house or Mr Zakula's house complied with the noise conditions in the permit at any time," Justice Richards said.

"Noise from the turbines on the wind farm has caused a substantial interference with both plaintiffs' enjoyment of their land.

"Specifically, their ability to sleep undisturbed at night in their own beds in their own homes."

The fact that we've been indiscriminately dumping these things all over the countryside without assessing their impact on the people who actually live near-by is appalling. Hopefully this court ruling will stop the indiscriminate placement of these Chinese-made heavily subsidised monstrosities.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Bald Hills VIC wind farm will not be allowed to operate at night after a landmark court ruling - ABC;

A Victorian court has ordered a wind farm in the state's south east to stop emitting noise at night in a momentous court decision.

The Victorian Supreme Court today found the noise from the Bald Hills Wind Farm at Tarwin Lower created a nuisance to its neighbours ordering damages and an injunction.

John Zakula and Noel Uren took civil action against the wind farm last year, telling the court that "roaring" intermittent noise from the wind turbines caused health problems and loss of sleep.

In a precedent-setting decision, Justice Melinda Richards said the company had not complied with its noise permit conditions and ordered a permanent injunction over the wind farm, with an initial three-month period to fix the issue.

The injunction will require the Bald Hills operators to "take necessary measures to abate" emitting loud noise at night.

"Bald Hills has not established that the sound received at either Mr Uren's house or Mr Zakula's house complied with the noise conditions in the permit at any time," Justice Richards said.

"Noise from the turbines on the wind farm has caused a substantial interference with both plaintiffs' enjoyment of their land.

"Specifically, their ability to sleep undisturbed at night in their own beds in their own homes."

The fact that we've been indiscriminately dumping these things all over the countryside without assessing their impact on the people who actually live near-by is appalling. Hopefully this court ruling will stop the indiscriminate placement of these Chinese-made heavily subsidised monstrosities.
don_dunstan
Serious question, have you ever seen an open cut mine up close?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Serious question, have you ever seen an open cut mine up close?
michaelgm
I'm not talking about open cut mines, I'm talking about the noise the comes from wind farms.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Serious question, have you ever seen an open cut mine up close?
I'm not talking about open cut mines, I'm talking about the noise the comes from wind farms.
don_dunstan
My bad.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Serious question, have you ever seen an open cut mine up close?
I'm not talking about open cut mines, I'm talking about the noise the comes from wind farms.
My bad.
michaelgm
Not that I don't think the point you're making isn't valid - yes, open cut mining is bloody awful. But these wind turbines are EVERYWHERE now, driving around the countryside there's pretty much wind-farms within sight where-ever you go. And people do actually live in the bush - we might not see them from our comfy suburban locales but they do exist. And these turbines DO make noise, the vibration is constant when you stand near one in full tilt.

Maybe the solution is the blade-less turbines that have been developed recently, although apparently they're not as efficient.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Bald Hills VIC wind farm will not be allowed to operate at night after a landmark court ruling - ABC;

The fact that we've been indiscriminately dumping these things all over the countryside without assessing their impact on the people who actually live near-by is appalling. Hopefully this court ruling will stop the indiscriminate placement of these Chinese-made heavily subsidised monstrosities.
don_dunstan

Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder...

They are 'monstrosities' because you have a barrow to push with your anti-renewable energy dogma. To me, windtowers are gracious sculptures.

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line

You are a hypocrite who can dish it out but can't take it.
don_dunstan

Pot, Kettle, Black...

M.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Serious question, have you ever seen an open cut mine up close?
michaelgm

OR...has that contributor acually visited the Snowy Mountains Scheme...or just an armchair 'expert'.

M.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Simon Holmes a Court probably won't like it, but a good outcome IMO:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-25/bald-hills-wind-farm-to-pay-damages/100938656
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder...

They are 'monstrosities' because you have a barrow to push with your anti-renewable energy dogma. To me, windtowers are gracious sculptures.

Mike.
The Vinelander
As long as you don't have to live next to one - right, Mike?
OR...has that contributor acually visited the Snowy Mountains Scheme...or just an armchair 'expert'. M.
The Vinelander
I need to have visited it to know that its five times over original budget and several years late?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Siemens is haemorrhaging money and will probably need to close its wind turbine manufacturing plant in Spain. The problem? Cheap Chinese coal-fired electricity - Watt's Up With That;

Even as groups of teenagers routinely protested against climate change in the streets below his Munich office, Christian Bruch struck a defiant tone.

“Everybody is looking for a silver bullet which . . . makes [energy] sustainable overnight,” Bruch told the Financial Times in the summer of 2020, as he prepared to take charge of Siemens Energy. “[But] over the next decades we’re going to need natural gas.”

His unfashionable stance failed to cut through to investors. Weeks later, against the backdrop of a resurgent Green party, Siemens Energy slumped on its stock market debut in Frankfurt after becoming Germany’s largest ever spin-off. Those who did invest in the fossil fuels company were more attracted to its sole clean energy business — the rapidly growing Spanish manufacturer of wind turbines, Siemens Gamesa, or SGRE.

Yet it is this renewables unit — rather than the gas and coal contracts that make up the bulk of Siemens Energy’s balance sheet — that now threatens the company’s future and is causing headaches for its largest shareholder, Siemens.

It's all very well and good to have a big, green, renewable party. But try actually manufacturing with green electricity - and it can't compete.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder...

They are 'monstrosities' because you have a barrow to push with your anti-renewable energy dogma. To me, windtowers are gracious sculptures.

Mike.
As long as you don't have to live next to one - right, Mike?
don_dunstan

I regularly ride my bike past our local recently constructed windfarm and it's almost silent. Moreover if you are living near one, it's likely you have towers on your land earning you a kings ransom.

M.

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