Renewable energy thread 2022

 
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Climate change is not a flawed theory Don.  I used to think it was until about ten years ago.
Carnot
I went the other way, Carnot, I used to believe in it but now I don't.

Droughts are climate change... but now lots of rain is climate change too. It's just not real is the conclusion...

EDIT: And the destruction of the earth from excess carbon dioxide is just a broken record that's been playing for literally decades:

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  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: In exile
the destruction of the earth from excess carbon dioxide is just a broken record that's been playing for literally decades:

don_dunstan
Not saying that this is true, but how can you possibly know that it is or isn't?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

He doesn't know. He just accepts whatever Faux News tells him.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Not saying that this is true, but how can you possibly know that it is or isn't?
Graham4405
Decades of failed predictions.
He doesn't know. He just accepts whatever Faux News tells him.
justapassenger
The complete lack of any predictive capacity with the 'climate science' tells me it's not a science. End-of-story.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Yesterday, Sydney smashed through it's annual rainfall in just 3 months!, now, I am not suggesting that it is man made climate change that is doing this, yes, that is part of the problem, but not the whole answer. I still believe it's more cyclical than anything else.
lsrailfan
We had a very mild summer in South Australia for the second year in a row - the veggie garden tanks still had water in them at the end of February which is very rare.

Does it mean anything? Probably not.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
Yesterday, Sydney smashed through it's annual rainfall in just 3 months!, now, I am not suggesting that it is man made climate change that is doing this, yes, that is part of the problem, but not the whole answer. I still believe it's more cyclical than anything else.
We had a very mild summer in South Australia for the second year in a row - the veggie garden tanks still had water in them at the end of February which is very rare.

Does it mean anything? Probably not.
don_dunstan
La Nina typically only influences weather over the East Coast of the country.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: In exile
Not saying that this is true, but how can you possibly know that it is or isn't?
Decades of failed predictions.
don_dunstan
Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it will never happen, has "failed". The one you posted could still happen.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Not saying that this is true, but how can you possibly know that it is or isn't?
Decades of failed predictions.
Just because something hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it will never happen, has "failed". The one you posted could still happen.
Graham4405
Do you seriously believe the world will end if we all keep burning coal? It's going to happen with or without our participation.

If I was going to turn this into a Don Dunstan four-paragraph op-ed, I'd have to start out by relating it back to our original topic here which is renewable energy. It's going to cost an absolute fortune to get anywhere near our COP26 goals, eg most of the money that Boris Johnson was allocating was to be for more off-shore wind-farms not nuclear power plants. That gives you an idea of the scale of the money needed to get to MAYBE can meet fifty percent of your nation's energy output at a given time (perhaps once or several times a year). But nowhere near plated capacity and particularly not at times in the early evening when most needed. Wind in the UK has proven extremely intermittent as I was posting in the now-closed thread.

And there's no technical breath-though with battery and other stored energy solutions any time soon: Battery and pumped hydro can put a band-aid on on it to some extent but even the largest ones being built at the moment in Australia can't come close to being able to power the NEM peak evening loads. Even then we're gambling on lots of things at the moment including juicing hundreds of billions more into 'green hydrogen' and pumped hydro where-ever that's viable in this relatively flat nation -

We still have no reliable estimate of net zero 2050 for Australia and in the mean-time thirty plus years of predictions of immanent doom that have not come true as that timely article I posted clearly shows... we've been drowning by the sea-side for aeons haven't we. Given we already spent several hundred billion on a virus in this country can we/should we be throwing half a trillion at following Europe and North America into intermittency problems due to 'no reliable base-load'.

Now I'm not explicitly endorsing nuclear but if I have to I'd say the only alternative to coal - realistically - is to follow France and (now) the UK in building nuclear power plants - other forms of capacity and storage simply aren't technically viable yet. And if the climate change bed-wetters out there really think carbon dioxide is going to destroy the globe somehow then we really need to have some reliable peak power. even in this day and age, the grid is still the cornerstone of modern life.

Just thought-bubbles. And look at that, four paragraphs exactly.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: In exile
Do you seriously believe the world will end if we all keep burning coal?
don_dunstan
No, but as I've said above this is NOT about what I believe, but about your premature interpretation of statements as having failed such as the one from 1989 you posted:

Simply because entire nations have not been wiped off the face of the earth by rising sea levels yet doesn't mean it won't happen because the general populous hasn't heeded the warnings. If it happens in 500 years time the warning will still have been vindicated.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Shock, horror…The representative from SA doesn’t believe in climate change or the need to clean up our energy generation.

Nothing to see here folks… move along it’s pointless to add your opinions, no matter how logical and leave the thread to the RW.. oops nearly said it again Exclamation


Mike.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Shock, horror…The representative from SA doesn’t believe in climate change or the need to clean up our energy generation.

Nothing to see here folks… move along it’s pointless to add your opinions, no matter how logical and leave the thread to the RW.. oops nearly said it again Exclamation


Mike.
The Vinelander
You're free to add your opinion any time you like, but the issue for you is that you're ignorant of what the actual issues are.

Educate yourself about what's going on so that you can roll with the adults on this thread. Or is that asking too much?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Do you seriously believe the world will end if we all keep burning coal?
No, but as I've said above this is NOT about what I believe, but about your premature interpretation of statements as having failed such as the one from 1989 you posted:

Simply because entire nations have not been wiped off the face of the earth by rising sea levels yet doesn't mean it won't happen because the general populous hasn't heeded the warnings. If it happens in 500 years time the warning will still have been vindicated.
Graham4405
What signs are there that the 33 year-old prediction is coming true? Is it immanent? Is it about to happen or will we have to wait five hundred years for it to happen as you were saying?

Telling people that the world will end is nothing new, Graham, people have been doing it for centuries to provoke fear and get compliance. But I'll give you a hint: It's been WRONG every single time. Like the Jehovah's Witnesses telling their flock that the world will end in 1975 - only to see a rapid drop in membership in the years after that failed prediction - JWfacts.

But climate change promoters are too clever for that, they just say the world will end and don't give time-lines or specific scenarios any longer because they don't want people to look back exactly as I've done and find a failed prediction from 1989 that said we'd definitely be all underwater by 2000.

What makes you think that this particular prediction of the end of humanity will be real? And how will it happen - what are the specific conditions that will cause the extinction of humanity?
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: In exile
What signs are there that the 33 year-old prediction is coming true? Is it immanent? Is it about to happen or will we have to wait five hundred years for it to happen as you were saying?
don_dunstan
I have no idea when or even if it will happen (and neither do you, nor most likely the UN), but that doesn't mean it won't happen.
What makes you think that this particular prediction of the end of humanity will be real? And how will it happen - what are the specific conditions that will cause the extinction of humanity?
don_dunstan
Did I say I think that? No. Read the quote you posted again. It doesn't predict "the end of humanity", "the extinction of humanity", simply that some "entire nations could be wiped off the face of the earth". Neither does it say when this might happen. It's simply a warning that if nothing is done, the consequences could be dire. Decades, centuries, millenia even may pass in the interim.
  oldfogey Beginner

I can recall these forecasts first coming out many years ago. Only a very small number of nations were expected to eventually disappear, Kiribati and Maldives were two. I've just googled and they are expected to become largely uninhabitable after 2100 if things continue as is, so there is a time scale. In addition I can recall reading somewhere that the land loss due to global warming was less than initially expected due to some unexpected feedbacks, something to do with increased sand generation raising the islands slightly.
  oldfogey Beginner

What I actually logged on to post, I recalled reading in Scintific American in the 1970s that nuclear fission was a lot safer than coal, so I googled. Google was not cooperative but I eventually found https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy and, summarising, deaths per TW-h and CO2 equivalent per GW-h

Brown coal 32.72 deaths
Black coal 24.62 deaths and 820 t
Oil 18.43 deaths and 720 t
Biomass 4.63 deaths and 78 to 230 t depending on fuel
Nuclear fission 0.07 deaths and 3 t
Wind 0.04 deaths and 4 t
Hydro 0.02 deaths and 34 t
Solar 0.02 deaths and 5 t

All numbers allegedly over the full life cycle. I would expect there to be substantial uncertainty.

If my arithmetic is correct, this means that if we value a human life at 1 million dollars, the hidden and unpaid for (by power companies and users) cost of brown coal power in human life is about 3 cents per kilowatt hour.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Did I say I think that? No. Read the quote you posted again. It doesn't predict "the end of humanity", "the extinction of humanity", simply that some "entire nations could be wiped off the face of the earth". Neither does it say when this might happen. It's simply a warning that if nothing is done, the consequences could be dire. Decades, centuries, millenia even may pass in the interim.
Graham4405
So let's get this straight - you're agreeing with the gist of a 33-year old article that says nations will be wiped from the face of the earth by climate change. You don't know how it will happen, you don't know the time-period over which it will happen but nevertheless you agree with the article that its POSSIBLE. Is that what you're saying?

"Millennia may even pass in the interim"... so it's not going to be your children or grand-children who are wiped out but some distant relatives in the year 3,000AD? By definition it's not something we should be worrying about, Graham. I'm much more concerned about things like plastic pollution and heavy metals that are having REAL consequences right now - not something that might be a problem in a thousand years.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: In exile
By definition it's not something we should be worrying about, Graham.
don_dunstan
And therein lies the problem. Almost nobody on this planet cares about what happens beyond their lifetime. Let's all stuff the planet now so that it is uninhabitable for future generations. All driven by politicians who can't see beyond their current term in office. We're all doomed.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
By definition it's not something we should be worrying about, Graham.
And therein lies the problem. Almost nobody on this planet cares about what happens beyond their lifetime. Let's all stuff the planet now so that it is uninhabitable for future generations. All driven by politicians who can't see beyond their current term in office. We're all doomed.
Graham4405
We are NOT all doomed! There's really SFA evidence that carbon dioxide is going to destroy humanity as I've been saying repeatedly on this board - none of the impending doom predictions have ever come true. Even two years ago during the horrible bush-fires we had in the summer of 2019/20 there were 'scientists' saying this is the new normal and get used to it happening all the time.

As we now know, those people were all categorically WRONG, that's not what happened. Now we have the same people trying to tell us that relatively isolated east-coast tropical lows late in the summer this year are definite evidence of climate change. No, they aren't! Weather systems like that happen frequently in Australian history - Lismore is one of the most flooded cities in Australia and so is Brisbane. And it was only a relatively small part of the country that experienced that tropical low system since February yet we'ere supposed to believe that this relatively isolated event is evidence of catastrophic climate change that will destroy humanity.... pull the other one.

We're not doomed, Graham - there are people whose financial interests are in promoting green energy in order to profit from the massive subsidies attached to it and they're frightening people into believing it's the end of the world in order to get more public money wasted on their cause.

It just isn't true.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
By definition it's not something we should be worrying about, Graham.
And therein lies the problem. Almost nobody on this planet cares about what happens beyond their lifetime. Let's all stuff the planet now so that it is uninhabitable for future generations. All driven by politicians who can't see beyond their current term in office. We're all doomed.
We are NOT all doomed! There's really SFA evidence that carbon dioxide is going to destroy humanity as I've been saying repeatedly on this board - none of the impending doom predictions have ever come true. Even two years ago during the horrible bush-fires we had in the summer of 2019/20 there were 'scientists' saying this is the new normal and get used to it happening all the time.

As we now know, those people were all categorically WRONG, that's not what happened. Now we have the same people trying to tell us that relatively isolated east-coast tropical lows late in the summer this year are definite evidence of climate change. No, they aren't! Weather systems like that happen frequently in Australian history - Lismore is one of the most flooded cities in Australia and so is Brisbane. And it was only a relatively small part of the country that experienced that tropical low system since February yet we'ere supposed to believe that this relatively isolated event is evidence of catastrophic climate change that will destroy humanity.... pull the other one.

We're not doomed, Graham - there are people whose financial interests are in promoting green energy in order to profit from the massive subsidies attached to it and they're frightening people into believing it's the end of the world in order to get more public money wasted on their cause.

It just isn't true.
don_dunstan
I think what they were saying is get used to more extreme weather events in this country, from that aspect they are very correct!
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I think what they were saying is get used to more extreme weather events in this country, from that aspect they are very correct!
lsrailfan
We have always - ALWAYS - had extreme weather events in this country. The recent floods in Lismore and Brisbane weren't even the worst that have been recorded in those locales, and those records don't go back further than 160-70 years.

Even at the time of the bush-fires there were people trying claim they were the worst ever recorded and the most deadly - they weren't even close to those records. The most land ever burnt in recorded history in Australia was in the 1850's when a huge chunk of the mainland burnt because we didn't even try and control bush-fire back then; and the deadliest was Black Friday in 1939.
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
I think what they were saying is get used to more extreme weather events in this country, from that aspect they are very correct!
We have always - ALWAYS - had extreme weather events in this country. The recent floods in Lismore and Brisbane weren't even the worst that have been recorded in those locales, and those records don't go back further than 160-70 years.

Even at the time of the bush-fires there were people trying claim they were the worst ever recorded and the most deadly - they weren't even close to those records. The most land ever burnt in recorded history in Australia was in the 1850's when a huge chunk of the mainland burnt because we didn't even try and control bush-fire back then; and the deadliest was Black Friday in 1939.
don_dunstan
Of course, the Aboriginals have been keeping records for 1,000s of years, they would have seen far worse than this, (I mean even before official record keeping began.)
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I think what they were saying is get used to more extreme weather events in this country, from that aspect they are very correct!
We have always - ALWAYS - had extreme weather events in this country. The recent floods in Lismore and Brisbane weren't even the worst that have been recorded in those locales, and those records don't go back further than 160-70 years.

Even at the time of the bush-fires there were people trying claim they were the worst ever recorded and the most deadly - they weren't even close to those records. The most land ever burnt in recorded history in Australia was in the 1850's when a huge chunk of the mainland burnt because we didn't even try and control bush-fire back then; and the deadliest was Black Friday in 1939.
Of course, the Aboriginals have been keeping records for 1,000s of years, they would have seen far worse than this, (I mean even before official record keeping began.)
lsrailfan
There's geological evidence of the land bridge between the mainland and Tassie at the end of the last large ice age and during Aboriginal settlement some 30,000 years ago. But what is 'extreme weather' anyway - hasn't the weather been shaped by things like volcanoes, sun-spots - everything and anything can affect the climate., and hasn't our continent always had really unpredictable and strange weather phenomenon anyway?

Life has had much higher concentrations of carbon dioxide in the past and evolution ensured that it survived * not if you are a Jehovah's Witness though... Aaron would suggest those higher temperatures when carbon dioxide was more concentrated were more suited to lizards and he's right, but then that presumes no technological answers to the problem which is yet to be defined in my opinion.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
Shock, horror…The representative from SA doesn’t believe in climate change or the need to clean up our energy generation.

Nothing to see here folks… move along it’s pointless to add your opinions, no matter how logical and leave the thread to the RW.. oops nearly said it again Exclamation


Mike.
You're free to add your opinion any time you like, but the issue for you is that you're ignorant of what the actual issues are.

Educate yourself about what's going on so that you can roll with the adults on this thread. Or is that asking too much?
don_dunstan

Yes...of course I'll educate myself to the right wing climate agenda. I should have done this years ago...

Oh look above.... a flying pig Exclamation

M.
  WimbledonW Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
What progress is being made towards developing Hydrogen (H2) and Ammonia (NH3) powered trains?

Fortescue is working on both, care of Andrew Forrest.

Talgo hope to have an H2 train working by 2023.

See https://www.talgo.com/home-highlights
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I think what they were saying is get used to more extreme weather events in this country, from that aspect they are very correct!
We have always - ALWAYS - had extreme weather events in this country. The recent floods in Lismore and Brisbane weren't even the worst that have been recorded in those locales, and those records don't go back further than 160-70 years.

Even at the time of the bush-fires there were people trying claim they were the worst ever recorded and the most deadly - they weren't even close to those records. The most land ever burnt in recorded history in Australia was in the 1850's when a huge chunk of the mainland burnt because we didn't even try and control bush-fire back then; and the deadliest was Black Friday in 1939.
don_dunstan
Its the increased frequency of these extreme weather events you silly old num nuts.

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