Russia vs. Ukraine - Potential War?

 
Topic moved from The Lounge by dthead on 17 Feb 2022 16:36
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
You don't get it do you?

We are talking about a poll in Russia, someone calls you on the phone and says 'Hello, my name is Don, I work for the Levada Centre, which is totally independent of the KGB, FSB and the rest of the Russian Government. I am just wondering if you can answer some questions about the government?' - The response you will near always get is 'I think our man Vladimir Putin is the greatest, most trusted leader on Earth'. To people that have seen their fellow citizens arrested in the street for simply carrying a blank piece of paper, what else are they going to say? It doesn't matter who the person on the other end of the phone is, it doesn't matter how trusted and independent the company they claim to work for is, you already know you cannot trust anyone.

It comes as no surprise to any of us that live in the real world that opinion of Putin has increased since the invasion of Ukraine, over night conveniently coinciding with that event it became literally illegal to use the word 'war' in Russia, a protester on the street with a blank sheet of paper was arrested, broadcast on the TV. If someone was almost brave enough to state they didn't think Putin was great, they're definitely not going to be brave enough to say it after that.

It's farken simple logic, and disturbingly, as much as you hate me to point out, it says quite some about your grasp of logic that you, after repeated attempts to explain it, still don't get it.
Yeah, I get it. You don't have any evidence, but you have an anecdote.

An independent research organisation comes up with a result that you don't like and you say "it must because they're frightened of being persecuted - which is why they say they love Putin".

If you don't have any evidence then just say so.
don_dunstan
There is no evidence to be had. Evidence obtained from a public too scared to even be on the street with a blank piece of paper is not likely to be representative of actual opinion. It's not 'they must be', it's 'they absolutely are' - with demonstrated reasoning which has been depicted on TV.

Even the Levada Centre has been 'in trouble' with the Russian government, even if I trusted them I wouldn't be telling them anything anti Putin because if they publish tomorrow that Putin is unpopular it's entirely likely the offices will be raided and their phone records confiscated - that is how these governments work. Travel to DPRK, see if you can find a single person willing to speak against their Dear Leader.

You clearly have never experienced living under an authoritarian (or communist) regime. I just asked my father in law as to before Poland was a free country if could he have ever told someone he did not know that he didn't support the government. He looked at me like I asked him if he ever went to school, and said 'of course not, I have told you such things about the Esbek, you only agree with such governments'.

Soooo, Poland is a free country now, and I can ask him what he thinks of the current government, so I said 'Your current government now is terrible right?' and he said 'Kurwa tak!' - I'll let you translate that.

Russians know about and remember Alexander Litvinenko, brutally poisoned in England for essentially speaking out against Putin, now sure, Putin is unlikely to have regular Russians poisoned in such a way, but also know Alexei Navalny, and right now exiting Russia is seemingly harder than going to prison.

Sponsored advertisement

  SurferJoe Beginner

And I suspect the reason you can't carry out a civilised conversation because you have NOTHING, Aaron, just the love of a busted-ar$ed country that was Europe's biggest exporter of prostitutes, surrogate mothers and body parts...
don_dunstan
Excuse me? You accuse somebody of not being able to carry out a civilised conversation then trot out this offensive stereotypical rubbish? Would you say the same of Thailand or the Phillipines? Glad I don't know you buddy because you sure do seem like an A grade jerk.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
And I suspect the reason you can't carry out a civilised conversation because you have NOTHING, Aaron, just the love of a busted-ar$ed country that was Europe's biggest exporter of prostitutes, surrogate mothers and body parts...
Excuse me? You accuse somebody of not being able to carry out a civilised conversation then trot out this offensive stereotypical rubbish? Would you say the same of Thailand or the Phillipines? Glad I don't know you buddy because you sure do seem like an A grade jerk.
SurferJoe
Sorry if it offends you but it's the simple truth. Being Europe's "go-to" for surrogacy, prostitution and organ trafficking is NOT a sign of a successful nation. It's a sign that the people are living in grinding poverty and inequality is rife, people are desperate.

Ukraine is not a shining example of a government we should be sending arms to.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
There is no evidence to be had. Evidence obtained from a public too scared to even be on the street with a blank piece of paper is not likely to be representative of actual opinion. It's not 'they must be', it's 'they absolutely are' - with demonstrated reasoning which has been depicted on TV.

Even the Levada Centre has been 'in trouble' with the Russian government, even if I trusted them I wouldn't be telling them anything anti Putin because if they publish tomorrow that Putin is unpopular it's entirely likely the offices will be raided and their phone records confiscated - that is how these governments work. Travel to DPRK, see if you can find a single person willing to speak against their Dear Leader.

You clearly have never experienced living under an authoritarian (or communist) regime. I just asked my father in law as to before Poland was a free country if could he have ever told someone he did not know that he didn't support the government. He looked at me like I asked him if he ever went to school, and said 'of course not, I have told you such things about the Esbek, you only agree with such governments'.

Soooo, Poland is a free country now, and I can ask him what he thinks of the current government, so I said 'Your current government now is terrible right?' and he said 'Kurwa tak!' - I'll let you translate that.

Russians know about and remember Alexander Litvinenko, brutally poisoned in England for essentially speaking out against Putin, now sure, Putin is unlikely to have regular Russians poisoned in such a way, but also know Alexei Navalny, and right now exiting Russia is seemingly harder than going to prison.
Aaron
So why - with all your revulsion for authoritarian regimes - do you think it's a good idea to send weapons to a regime that is more or less identical (if not worse) than the Russian one?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Aaaaaaand, yet, no link?
Aaron
Suddenly you can't use the Google-machine?

I'm trying to advocate for us to NOT get involved in this war, for the simple reason that it could easily turn into another South Vietnam - rescuing a pro-Western government that just doesn't deserve to be rescued and then getting entangled in yet another proxy war that we simply can't win.

As I said earlier, there are interests in our society that want to see this war escalate because they'll make money from it. We have to actively push back against any argument for us to send weapons, money or support to the Ukrainian government because it really isn't in our longer term interests to be fighting for a corrupt kleptocracy just because they're fighting a larger Western-bloc enemy (exactly like we did in South Vietnam).

We have made these mistakes before - let's not make them again.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
You don't get it do you?

We are talking about a poll in Russia, someone calls you on the phone and says 'Hello, my name is Don, I work for the Levada Centre, which is totally independent of the KGB, FSB and the rest of the Russian Government. I am just wondering if you can answer some questions about the government?' - The response you will near always get is 'I think our man Vladimir Putin is the greatest, most trusted leader on Earth'. To people that have seen their fellow citizens arrested in the street for simply carrying a blank piece of paper, what else are they going to say? It doesn't matter who the person on the other end of the phone is, it doesn't matter how trusted and independent the company they claim to work for is, you already know you cannot trust anyone.

It comes as no surprise to any of us that live in the real world that opinion of Putin has increased since the invasion of Ukraine, over night conveniently coinciding with that event it became literally illegal to use the word 'war' in Russia, a protester on the street with a blank sheet of paper was arrested, broadcast on the TV. If someone was almost brave enough to state they didn't think Putin was great, they're definitely not going to be brave enough to say it after that.

It's farken simple logic, and disturbingly, as much as you hate me to point out, it says quite some about your grasp of logic that you, after repeated attempts to explain it, still don't get it.
Yeah, I get it. You don't have any evidence, but you have an anecdote.

An independent research organisation comes up with a result that you don't like and you say "it must because they're frightened of being persecuted - which is why they say they love Putin".

If you don't have any evidence then just say so.
There is no evidence to be had. Evidence obtained from a public too scared to even be on the street with a blank piece of paper is not likely to be representative of actual opinion. It's not 'they must be', it's 'they absolutely are' - with demonstrated reasoning which has been depicted on TV.

Even the Levada Centre has been 'in trouble' with the Russian government, even if I trusted them I wouldn't be telling them anything anti Putin because if they publish tomorrow that Putin is unpopular it's entirely likely the offices will be raided and their phone records confiscated - that is how these governments work. Travel to DPRK, see if you can find a single person willing to speak against their Dear Leader.

You clearly have never experienced living under an authoritarian (or communist) regime. I just asked my father in law as to before Poland was a free country if could he have ever told someone he did not know that he didn't support the government. He looked at me like I asked him if he ever went to school, and said 'of course not, I have told you such things about the Esbek, you only agree with such governments'.

Soooo, Poland is a free country now, and I can ask him what he thinks of the current government, so I said 'Your current government now is terrible right?' and he said 'Kurwa tak!' - I'll let you translate that.

Russians know about and remember Alexander Litvinenko, brutally poisoned in England for essentially speaking out against Putin, now sure, Putin is unlikely to have regular Russians poisoned in such a way, but also know Alexei Navalny, and right now exiting Russia is seemingly harder than going to prison.
Aaron
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/14/1092862792/russian-woman-jailed-ukraine-protest-price-tags

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/07/1084967986/russia-arrests-more-protesters

https://www.forbes.com/sites/madelinehalpert/2022/04/11/russia-arrests-opposition-politician-vladimir-kara-murza-colleague-says/?sh=50a110be19ff

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/tikgw6/temporary_occupied_berdansk_ukraine_people_are/

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/22/more-than-15000-russians-have-been-arrested-in-anti-war-protests

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-protests-police-arrest-activists-holding-blank-signs-paper-1687603

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/06/russian-teacher-shocked-as-she-faces-jail-over-anti-war-speech-pupils-taped

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-teachers-ukraine-war-reported-own-students-anti-war-remarks-2022-4

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/07/russia-criminalizes-independent-war-reporting-anti-war-protests

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/4/russia-prison-media-law-fake-reports-ukraine-war

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/05/1084729579/russian-law-bans-journalists-from-calling-ukraine-conflict-a-war-or-an-invasion

I can keep going with the "illegal to not support war/Putins government" sources.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Aaaaaaand, yet, no link?
Suddenly you can't use the Google-machine?
don_dunstan
I can, but I found this:

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/06/22/ukraine-s-volodymyr-zelenskyy-speeds-up-corruption-crackdown-one-oligarch-at-a-time

Doesn't really say what you want it to does it? - That's why I asked for your article, because frankly, I think you're full of your own smeg and didn't see that article at all.

On the safety of speaking out against Putin I also found this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/madelinehalpert/2022/04/11/russia-arrests-opposition-politician-vladimir-kara-murza-colleague-says/?sh=5ef641819ff7

Kara-Murza is the former deputy leader of the People’s Freedom Party, an opposition party founded in the last years of the Soviet Union. An outspoken critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin, he has spoken to several U.S. outlets condemning Russia’s war in Ukraine in recent months. Kara-Murza was also a colleague of opposition leader Boris Nemtsov, who was assassinated in Moscow in 2015 while helping to organize a rally against Russia’s backing of a war in eastern Ukraine. Kara-Murza survived two suspected poisonings in Russia in 2015 and 2017. An investigation from news site Bellingcat, the Insider and Der Spiegel found that operatives of Russia’s Federal Security Service poison squad tracked both Kara-Murza and Alexei Navalny, a Russian opposition leader who was also allegedly poisoned in 2020, just before the two fell ill several years apart. The Russian government has refused to investigate the events, but denies any involvement in Nemtsov’s death or Navalny’s poisoning
Madeline Halpert - Forbes - bolding by Aaron
You're right Don, your man Putin is a thoroughly upstanding member of the Russian population, totally deserving of the power he holds over the people. Of course those opinion polls are perfect samples of public opinion, how could they not be, Putin is the most kind and caring leader I think world might ever have seen. I just cannot believe I missed it before.

I mean ScoMo isn't the greatest leader in the world, and Albo if he gets in isn't likely to be either, but at least neither have no rational fear of being poisoned by the other's security whilst out on the campaign trail - that's not quite how it seems to be in Russia...
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Suddenly you can't use the Google-machine?
I can, but I found this:

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/06/22/ukraine-s-volodymyr-zelenskyy-speeds-up-corruption-crackdown-one-oligarch-at-a-time

Doesn't really say what you want it to does it? - That's why I asked for your article, because frankly, I think you're full of your own smeg and didn't see that article at all.

On the safety of speaking out against Putin I also found this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/madelinehalpert/2022/04/11/russia-arrests-opposition-politician-vladimir-kara-murza-colleague-says/?sh=5ef641819ff7
Aaron
But this is also Putin textbook, Aaron - pick off some of the worst transgressors and make the others fall into line.

Let's agree to take one topic at a time because it's really difficult to keep you on the subject of the present Ukraine government.

Yup, Putin is all of the things you say he is. He's even as bad as Saddam Hussein, remember him? Once upon a time bedfellow of the United States doing God's work by going to war with the unholy Iranian regime. But then times changed didn't they and they decided it was expedient to punish millions of Iraqis with an endless bombing campaign followed by an invasion that totally ruined the nation and killed hundreds of thousands more.

Yeah we can really pick 'em can't we. And then pick them off when it becomes expedient.
You're right Don, your man Putin is a thoroughly upstanding member of the Russian population, totally deserving of the power he holds over the people. Of course those opinion polls are perfect samples of public opinion, how could they not be, Putin is the most kind and caring leader I think world might ever have seen. I just cannot believe I missed it before. I mean ScoMo isn't the greatest leader in the world, and Albo if he gets in isn't likely to be either, but at least neither have no rational fear of being poisoned by the other's security whilst out on the campaign trail - that's not quite how it seems to be in Russia...
Aaron
I've spend the last few pages saying Putin is an evli, murd-diddly-urding kleptocrat but you're just not listening -

For whatever reason I've given up understanding.

Do you at least see my point about South Vietnam - Johnson was sucked into the military/industrial complex just as Eisenhower predicted - and sent us and the United States into some bloody, un-winnable war.

Never again, hey Aaron. Never again should we be sucked into defending a weak, corrupt Western bloc client state just because they're at war with one of our on-again/off-again enemies.

Don't you agree?
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/14/1092862792/russian-woman-jailed-ukraine-protest-price-tags

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/07/1084967986/russia-arrests-more-protesters

https://www.forbes.com/sites/madelinehalpert/2022/04/11/russia-arrests-opposition-politician-vladimir-kara-murza-colleague-says/?sh=50a110be19ff

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/tikgw6/temporary_occupied_berdansk_ukraine_people_are/

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/03/22/more-than-15000-russians-have-been-arrested-in-anti-war-protests

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-protests-police-arrest-activists-holding-blank-signs-paper-1687603

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/06/russian-teacher-shocked-as-she-faces-jail-over-anti-war-speech-pupils-taped

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-teachers-ukraine-war-reported-own-students-anti-war-remarks-2022-4

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/07/russia-criminalizes-independent-war-reporting-anti-war-protests

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/4/russia-prison-media-law-fake-reports-ukraine-war

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/05/1084729579/russian-law-bans-journalists-from-calling-ukraine-conflict-a-war-or-an-invasion

I can keep going with the "illegal to not support war/Putins government" sources.
speedemon08
All I can do is refer you to the post I made to Aaron a few minutes ago - so what if he's an evil dictator? Never stopped us before, wont' stop us in the future. Guess what - we trade with people more 'evil' than Putin all the time. And Putin's friends.

They who-shall-not-be-named.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Ukraine are getting several Bushmaster vehicles from Bendigo in Victoria, this will help them no end in fighting Putin's despotic army!
lsrailfan
They arrived safely and were delivered into Ukrainian army custody today!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
But this is also Putin textbook, Aaron - pick off some of the worst transgressors and make the others fall into line.
don_dunstan
So you're suggesting Zelenskyy should have instead gone after the smaller fry corruption? Because who takes notice of that?

Just last week the Feds and whatnot should have let that large cocaine delivery is SA waters be collected so that they could instead just waste time arresting 1000 street dealers? No Don, you want to start at the top to wipe out a problem.

Do you understand that the way Putin uses this technique is to totally control all of the little people in Russia? Zelenskyy at least is going after the big corruption, Putin on the other hand is enabling the corruption, something I might add that you seek to blame Zelenskyy for.

Still no link from you by the way. Keep ignoring, I won't be forgetting...

I've spend the last few pages saying Putin is an evli, murd-diddly-urding kleptocrat but you're just not listening -
don_dunstan
It took you 15 pages by your own admission then excuse me if I take 15 pages to remind you - just 12 to go.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
But this is also Putin textbook, Aaron - pick off some of the worst transgressors and make the others fall into line.
So you're suggesting Zelenskyy should have instead gone after the smaller fry corruption? Because who takes notice of that?

Just last week the Feds and whatnot should have let that large cocaine delivery is SA waters be collected so that they could instead just waste time arresting 1000 street dealers? No Don, you want to start at the top to wipe out a problem.

Do you understand that the way Putin uses this technique is to totally control all of the little people in Russia? Zelenskyy at least is going after the big corruption, Putin on the other hand is enabling the corruption, something I might add that you seek to blame Zelenskyy for.

Still no link from you by the way. Keep ignoring, I won't be forgetting...
Aaron
I'm not your research assistant. And you keep skirting around my main points to nit-pick little bits that you think you can win on. So I'll remind you again of what I think is the most important thing here:

Never again should Australia be sucked into supporting a weak, corrupt client state that's engaged in a war with a non-Western aligned nation.

Don't you agree?

Or are you secretly hoping for a "Gulf of Tonkin" kinda incident so we can sell even more weapons to expand the war:
They arrived safely and were delivered into Ukrainian army custody today!
Aaron
Hooray, more weapons for the Taliban-of-the-future to use against the West when the time comes...
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Interesting article from journalist Aaron Mate discussing the fact that Zelenesky was originally elected to stop the war in Donbass but was threatened by neo-Nazis in his own country as well as Democrats in the United States who wanted a proxy war against Russia. He starts with an interview with the late Stephen F Cohen who warned in 2019 that the United States was fermenting war in Ukraine - Substack;

"Zelensky ran as a peace candidate," Cohen explained. "He won an enormous mandate to make peace. So, that means he has to negotiate with Vladimir Putin." But there was a major obstacle. Ukrainian fascists "have said that they will remove and kill Zelensky if he continues along this line of negotiating with Putin… His life is being threatened literally by a quasi-fascist movement in Ukraine."...

...In using Ukraine to bleed Russia, the US has showcased its contempt for everything in Ukraine that it claims to defend, namely its democracy and security. By treating Ukraine as a depot for US weapons, the US has joined Ukrainian fascists in sabotaging the 2015 Minsk accords that could have put an end to the civil war triggered by a US-backed coup the year prior. Minsk called for granting Ukraine's Russian-speaking population in the eastern Donbas limited autonomy and respect for their language. This prospect was a non-starter for the far-right nationalists and Nazis empowered by the 2014 US-backed Maidan coup.

"The uncomfortable truth is that a sizeable portion of Kiev’s current government — and the protesters who brought it to power — are, indeed, fascists," two specialists with prominent Western think tanks wrote in Foreign Policy in March 2014, one month after the coup.

Zelenesky was elected with a promise to honour the Minsk Agreement which would have ended the ongoing war between Ukranian neo-Nazis and Russian backed rebels in the east - but he was soon pulled into line by those in charge:

In April 2019, Zelensky was elected with an overwhelming 73% of the vote on a promise to turn the tide. In his inaugural address the next month, Zelensky declared that he was "not afraid to lose my own popularity, my ratings," and was "prepared to give up my own position – as long as peace arrives."

But Ukraine's powerful far-right and neo-Nazi militias made clear to Zelensky that reaching peace in the Donbas would have a much higher cost.

"No, he would lose his life," Right Sector co-founder Dmytro Anatoliyovych Yarosh, then the commander of the Ukrainian Volunteer Army, responded one week after Zelensky's inaugural speech. "He will hang on some tree on Khreshchatyk - if he betrays Ukraine and those people who died in the Revolution and the War."

So Zelenesky didn't really have a choice but to do as he was told:

The far-right threats to Zelensky undoubtedly thwarted a peace agreement that could have prevented the Russian invasion. Just two weeks before Russia troops entered Ukraine, the New York Times noted that Zelensky "would be taking extreme political risks even to entertain a peace deal" with Russia, as his government "could be rocked and possibly overthrown" by far-right groups if he "agrees to a peace deal that in their minds gives too much to Moscow."
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Interesting footage of a newly-elected Zelenesky in 2019 being threatened by an un-named neo-Nazi Azov Battalion commander and told in no uncertain terms that there would be no enforcement of the Minsk Agreement to bring peace to eastern Ukraine:



Interesting to note that Obama refused to send weapons to Ukraine because he feared fuelling neo-Nazis -
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
But this is also Putin textbook, Aaron - pick off some of the worst transgressors and make the others fall into line.
So you're suggesting Zelenskyy should have instead gone after the smaller fry corruption? Because who takes notice of that?

Just last week the Feds and whatnot should have let that large cocaine delivery is SA waters be collected so that they could instead just waste time arresting 1000 street dealers? No Don, you want to start at the top to wipe out a problem.

Do you understand that the way Putin uses this technique is to totally control all of the little people in Russia? Zelenskyy at least is going after the big corruption, Putin on the other hand is enabling the corruption, something I might add that you seek to blame Zelenskyy for.

Still no link from you by the way. Keep ignoring, I won't be forgetting...
I'm not your research assistant. And you keep skirting around my main points to nit-pick little bits that you think you can win on. So I'll remind you again of what I think is the most important thing here:

Never again should Australia be sucked into supporting a weak, corrupt client state that's engaged in a war with a non-Western aligned nation.

Don't you agree?

Or are you secretly hoping for a "Gulf of Tonkin" kinda incident so we can sell even more weapons to expand the war:
They arrived safely and were delivered into Ukrainian army custody today!
Hooray, more weapons for the Taliban-of-the-future to use against the West when the time comes...
don_dunstan
So now you are calling the Ukrainian army the Taliban of the future, you really HAVE lost it!! Ukraine can defend their own territory the way they wish, and no, Ukraine won't use anything against the West, they see the west as friendly allies, helping them against you're mate Putin's army!
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
So now you are calling the Ukrainian army the Taliban of the future, you really HAVE lost it!! Ukraine can defend their own territory the way they wish, and no, Ukraine won't use anything against the West, they see the west as friendly allies, helping them against you're mate Putin's army!
lsrailfan
Once upon a time, the CIA, Osama Bin Laden and Pakistani Intelligence (ISI) all had the same common enemy and were working together hand in hand to defeat them.

Do you remember what happened to that alliance?
  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
So now you are calling the Ukrainian army the Taliban of the future, you really HAVE lost it!! Ukraine can defend their own territory the way they wish, and no, Ukraine won't use anything against the West, they see the west as friendly allies, helping them against you're mate Putin's army!
Once upon a time, the CIA, Osama Bin Laden and Pakistani Intelligence (ISI) all had the same common enemy and were working together hand in hand to defeat them.

Do you remember what happened to that alliance?
don_dunstan
If you are referring to the Arabs, yes I do, the Arabs turned against them, but Ukraine is different story to that, that won't happen here.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Interesting footage of a newly-elected Zelenesky in 2019 being threatened by an un-named neo-Nazi Azov Battalion commander and told in no uncertain terms that there would be no enforcement of the Minsk Agreement to bring peace to eastern Ukraine:

Interesting to note that Obama refused to send weapons to Ukraine because he feared fuelling neo-Nazis -
don_dunstan
The Minsk Agreement is mostly to done to tell Russia to quit with their smeg in Donbass and Luhansk and and indirectly get the Russian funded soldiers to back the smeg off.

Now, I also wonder why the battalion operating in the east of Ukraine (post 2014 Euromaiden protests that deposed the very pro Russia government) sees through this smeg and knows Russia will try and do a further invasion, say, like in 2022 after they got away with Crimea in 2014 due to the poor state of Ukraines armed forces at the time?

I wonder if Russias tried this smeg before. Say, like in South Osettia which geographically is part of Georgia? Just ask the locals how the Russians move the border overnight constantly and expelled and dispersed all the local population and filled it with Russians!
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
The Minsk Agreement is mostly to done to tell Russia to quit with their smeg in Donbass and Luhansk and and indirectly get the Russian funded soldiers to back the smeg off.
speedemon08
You saw that footage of Zelenesky in 2019 trying to tell Azov that they had to lay down their arms - the answer was 'no'.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
So in summary this is what Putin's #1 advocate, fan and general Leader of the Australian Pro Putin support club from South Australia, ol' mate Don supports

- Invasion of a sovereign state
- Cold execution of civilians
- Mass destruction, vandalism and theft of peoples property and govt infrastructure
- Rape of females of all ages
- Child abduction
- Forced relocation of people from their home land
- Kidnapping
- Calling a Jew a Nazi
- breaking numerous laws against the Geneva convention
- Crimes against humanity
- Abandoning the dead of his own military countrymen lost in conflict

Doesn't say much about your ethical standing Don

Meanwhile you also claim

-Zelensky is worth $0.5B, which while I'm not disputing there are numerous other websites say its not that high

However, the same sites that say he is worth $0.5B also goes through his estimated earnings from the last 10 years which prior to becoming President was over $50mpa and rising about 10-20% Yoy from his own production company and past residuals as one of the most popular actors on Russian language TV.

But, poor old Don think Zelensky is only 3 years old and nothing prior to 2019 is of consequence.

Donnie Boy also wants to harp on about corruption, but all he does is use the world "corruption", no evidence and yet we are supposed to believe him.

Don claims Putin is a hero in Russia, because an "independent" survey company in Russia says so. Don also seems to be completely clueless to the level of govt control in Russia and thinks just because someone uses the word "independent" they actually that. Oh thats right, Don is sleeps in a Putin T-shirt at night so he's about as bias as Pravda in his judgement and opinions of Putin.

Meanwhile in Russia
- its illegal to use the world "war" in reference to Ukraine
- its illegal to protest against the war in Ukraine
- its illegal to even hold a blank sign
- its illegal to support or make comment that Ukraine should be independent
- its illegal to critise Putin
- People on streets get randomly checked and the contents on their phones checks for any of the above
- parents of the troops in Ukraine have no contacts with their sons since the start
- Numerous so called semi independent media, youtube and other outlets have closed since the start of the war

And despite all this, Don still thinks someone can genuinely do a fully open and transparent survey about the war and Putin.


And through all this Don seems to think the west shouldn't be supporting Ukraine. If Ukraine were to fall Don, then what's the next country that is allowed to taken over, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, perhaps Poland. Oh help according to you we should let Putin take back the whole former Eastern Bloc and while we are at it give back Eastern Germany.

Don you should stand up and solute, Putin would be very proud of you.

  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
So in summary this is what Putin's #1 advocate, fan and general Leader of the Australian Pro Putin support club from South Australia, ol' mate Don supports

- Invasion of a sovereign state
- Cold execution of civilians
- Mass destruction, vandalism and theft of peoples property and govt infrastructure
- Rape of females of all ages
- Child abduction
- Forced relocation of people from their home land
- Kidnapping
- Calling a Jew a Nazi
- breaking numerous laws against the Geneva convention
- Crimes against humanity
- Abandoning the dead of his own military countrymen lost in conflict

Doesn't say much about your ethical standing Don
RTT_Rules
If this was a court of law, RTT_Rules, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on mate.

In no universe have I supported the execution of civilians, child abduction. Nowhere have I called any Jewish people Nazis.

What you've written there is straight-up slander because like a lot of other people here you think my pointing out the obvious, which is that Putin was provoked to invade Ukraine by their failure to abide by the Minsk Agreement (both times) is the same thing as saying I like Putin and support what he's doing. Whereas trying to give a background for what's going on is not the same thing as supporting what he's doing.

You're not the only person to conflate my unpacking of what's actually caused this war with support of Putin - like a lot of people here you want to see this thing purely in black and white terms with no complicated explanations as to what actually happened. But it just isn't that simple - Putin didn't invade Ukraine because he was looking for something to do on a weekend - he did it (so he would say) because Russian-speaking people were being persecuted by Azov Battalion and the Ukrainian government was doing nothing about it - and in fact had ignored what was going on. Six years and two broken peace agreements - and as you can clearly see with that video I posted, Zelenesky had no control whatsoever over that Azov Battalion, they refused to follow orders - a nation so corrupt that the politicians aren't even in charge of the military.

I'm truly sorry for coming along and bursting your bubble of ignorance about what's going on but then like most things the image that the media presents - with Ukraine being completely without blame - is wrong. There's a complicated explanation behind what's gone on here and like a lot of people you simply don't want to know.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

The good news is that the fire on the Moskva has been extinguished.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out


Stamp reads:

“Inclined toward treason, lies, and deception. Refused to participate in the special military operation on the territory of the LNR, DNR, and Ukraine.”
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
So in summary this is what Putin's #1 advocate, fan and general Leader of the Australian Pro Putin support club from South Australia, ol' mate Don supports

- Invasion of a sovereign state
- Cold execution of civilians
- Mass destruction, vandalism and theft of peoples property and govt infrastructure
- Rape of females of all ages
- Child abduction
- Forced relocation of people from their home land
- Kidnapping
- Calling a Jew a Nazi
- breaking numerous laws against the Geneva convention
- Crimes against humanity
- Abandoning the dead of his own military countrymen lost in conflict

Doesn't say much about your ethical standing Don
If this was a court of law, RTT_Rules, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on mate.

In no universe have I supported the execution of civilians, child abduction. Nowhere have I called any Jewish people Nazis.

What you've written there is straight-up slander because like a lot of other people here you think my pointing out the obvious, which is that Putin was provoked to invade Ukraine by their failure to abide by the Minsk Agreement (both times) is the same thing as saying I like Putin and support what he's doing. Whereas trying to give a background for what's going on is not the same thing as supporting what he's doing.

You're not the only person to conflate my unpacking of what's actually caused this war with support of Putin - like a lot of people here you want to see this thing purely in black and white terms with no complicated explanations as to what actually happened. But it just isn't that simple - Putin didn't invade Ukraine because he was looking for something to do on a weekend - he did it (so he would say) because Russian-speaking people were being persecuted by Azov Battalion and the Ukrainian government was doing nothing about it - and in fact had ignored what was going on. Six years and two broken peace agreements - and as you can clearly see with that video I posted, Zelenesky had no control whatsoever over that Azov Battalion, they refused to follow orders - a nation so corrupt that the politicians aren't even in charge of the military.

I'm truly sorry for coming along and bursting your bubble of ignorance about what's going on but then like most things the image that the media presents - with Ukraine being completely without blame - is wrong. There's a complicated explanation behind what's gone on here and like a lot of people you simply don't want to know.
don_dunstan
Let me refer you to the much earlier 1993

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

Confirm the following:
1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defence or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.
3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coersion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its  sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.
5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State.
6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises that raises a question concerning these commitments.
— Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Let me refer you to the much earlier 1993

Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
speedemon08
Fair enough, but then neither side have respected the sovereignty of Ukraine since then anyway - it's been a pawn for both of them.

Here's Biden on the 24th of January 2018 talking at the Council on Foreign Relations about how they'd got their man Poroshenko into power - in this little press conference (then) former Vice President Biden admits he was trying as hard as he could to get 'regime change' in Ukraine despite objections from European nations who didn't support it:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJIXFqOqVQ

And it's telling that he's about as cynical as you can get about the fate of Ukraine:

There's an overwhelming instinct in Europe to say "hey, before you guys became President, this was all owned by Russia anyway. They had a puppet there. What difference does it make? What the hell is the difference?"

But after they'd got their regime change they weren't happy - they were still telling their peons in Ukraine exactly how to run their country (ie don't investigate 'business' being done by the Vice President's children...).

"I've been the guy on the back of the Ukrainians, it was a thoroughly corrupt system when they came in. Making the case that - you have to understand - everyone's willing to blame the victim and you have to straighten up and fly right. Remember last year I was authorised to say we do the second tranche of a billion dollars . He didn't fire his chief prosecutor, and because I have the confidence of the President I was there and I said 'I'm not signing it'. Until you fire him, we're not signing that. Dead straight."

He's referring to the fact that he had an investigation into his son's board position with gas monopoly Bursima killed. Really strange that he equates pulling an investigation into corruption with somehow being anti-corruption.

They don't care about Ukraine or the Ukrainian people, they just see it in terms of how they can make money or best use it for their own ends - particularly with blocking Russia from cultivating its own satellite states in Eastern Europe.

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