Should the Adelaide Hills get a rail line?

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 19 May 2021 09:04
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Aussie freight trains are probably double the length, but still this would be less than 12 - 16 trains a day.

Anyway it's a what $3B tunnel ( single track, mo passing loops).
RTT_Rules

Victoria has pissed more than that on toxic soil issues.

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  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Where is your vision?Smile

Yes this is a route handing east west traffic from Melbourne-adelaide-perth and darwin-adelaide-melbourne so why would there not be traffic.

In contrast the gothard base tunnel has 200 freights per day.
bevans

There is little or no through traffic from Melbourne to Darwin via rail, despite some recent efforts to change that.

It is more than likely that when Inland Rail is completed circa 2026, Melbourne to Perth traffic will be routed via Parkes.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

10.8km tunnel from Lynton (excavate the old landfill for the tunnel portal) to Heathfield would require an average gradient of 3.1% (1 in 32) which is a workable gradient for electric hauled freight. The Stirling-Heathfield-Aldgate area could have a station which a tunnel all the way to the Onkaparinga River (west of Balhannah) would preclude.

To be viable it would need to carry a rolling highway service (offering an alternative to the SE Freeway, perhaps including charging for electric trucks) as well as regular freight and passenger services.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The Old Belair Road runs from Belair (near the station) to Torrens Park. It’s pretty darn steep for cars and trucks, let alone trains.
SinickleBird
Belair Road was great for motorcycles or at least it was back in the mid 80s! I sincerely hope that trucks don't use that road, well not semis anyway, it would be a nightmare getting stuck behind one

Shepherd's Hill Rd a much better option for the big rigs, not sure if any others have been added since I left

People who haven't lived in Addle Daddles or at least studied their SAR history don't seem to understand, they didn't go the long way around via Sleeps Hill just for the fun of it!
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
A news item last night in Valiant City, regarding public transport V's driving, the comparison included travel from Mt Barker...Bus Bus Bus and no mention of the need for a train.

https://www.facebook.com/9NewsAdelaide/videos/1419253675167280/?__cft__0=AZXmTYiu28ygm8dsOdcKjxLnJWbTee3Vc4UxM9qGuH-CSEFAi1vluQoFl1Qsd8kIonD7TMqOwi37DfsZFk69iDzjzNQ3zOiFV-pEh9ftSIp9H4d30kXrcpHas4NmxcU9iAVUQd5IrjnICJ-zzDZGMfk-5V165hbCPyIg6ykFxGshfPl5HVT6AT1yFvO-SNGEnGE&__tn__=%2B%3FFH-R

BigShunter.

bastards..looks as if you have to log into facebook

unless someone else can post the clip if desperate
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
BigShunter: You weren't missing anything, it was just a puff piece about how public transport is cheap at the moment relative to the petrol price - but only if you travel long distances. Inner suburbs its still cheaper to drive.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
BigShunter: You weren't missing anything, it was just a puff piece about how public transport is cheap at the moment relative to the petrol price - but only if you travel long distances. Inner suburbs its still cheaper to drive.
don_dunstan
Most of the news is huff and puff don. Seems me badgering the Mrs to hit the park and ride at Bowden may not be as good as I have been spruking although I reckon she only uses that option half the time to keep me quite.

BigShunter.
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
Tunnels up for discussion! Finally! How long before an extensive (long) tunnel is actually built is another thing. I have long proposed that a tunnel starting at Callington and routed beneath Mount Barker, Mount Lofty Station and Belair Station with the capacity for four tracks from Mount Barker to exit around Lynton would leave a total elevation distance of being 3m higher at Lynton than Callington. This would cater for all the needs of Public Transport and the DIRN. The overall savings on fuel could offset the huge tunnel boring cost and possibly make discussion of freight diversion around the Mount Lofty Ranges moot.
  Halo Chief Train Controller

Distance is too short for a TBM. you generally can't hire one, one is built for your particular project then scrapped.

The only way your getting a "short" tunnel through there is by blasting.

Don't think we even had tbms for the Heysen tunnels.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
The overall savings on fuel could offset the huge tunnel boring cost.
nm39

Bollocks!

And by 2025/6 most freight on the route will go via Parkes.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Distance is too short for a TBM.
Halo
Rubbish.

A Lynton-Callington base tunnel would be at least 42km long (depending on curvature) which is almost as long as the Channel Tunnel and likely to require multiple TBMs according to the variations in the geology along the route.

Even a shorter tunnel from Lynton to somewhere in the Heathfield/Aldgate area would use TBM.

Don't think we even had tbms for the Heysen tunnels.
Halo
Of course not. They are only 450m long.
  Yappo Train Controller

Distance is too short for a TBM. you generally can't hire one, one is built for your particular project then scrapped.

The only way your getting a "short" tunnel through there is by blasting.

Don't think we even had tbms for the Heysen tunnels.
Halo
I's like to suggest that you read look at the drives planned for SRl Stage 1 (or look up the Sydney Metro drives or Melb Metro Tunnel drives) and then reconsider your statement

  Yappo Train Controller

Tunnels up for discussion! Finally! How long before an extensive (long) tunnel is actually built is another thing. I have long proposed that a tunnel starting at Callington and routed beneath Mount Barker, Mount Lofty Station and Belair Station with the capacity for four tracks from Mount Barker to exit around Lynton would leave a total elevation distance of being 3m higher at Lynton than Callington. This would cater for all the needs of Public Transport and the DIRN. The overall savings on fuel could offset the huge tunnel boring cost and possibly make discussion of freight diversion around the Mount Lofty Ranges moot.
nm39
And here was me thinking that a 2.5km tunnel with a 9.8% gradient from Belair was crazy. Since then we've had someone suggest a 16km from Balhannah to Mitcham and now a ludicrous 42km tunnel from Callington to Lynton!

All for a route that does not have the traffic volume to justify such expenditure. Justapassenger's 10.8km tunnel from Lynton to Heathfield seems somewhat realistic at least.....

However, I've always wondered about using the Brown Hill Creek alignment from Mitcham station (76m) 7km at a mix of grade & elevated to near Crafers West (380m) with a short 3-4km tunnel to Mt Lofty station (492m)? You'd need some land aquisition and of course the semi rural locals wouldn't be happy having a new train line, but such a general alignment could potentially provide a long term solution?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

76m to 380m in 7km needs an average gradient of 4.3% (aka 1 in 23) which is not realistic. Potentially okay for a short ramp linking to an overpass/underpass (though I do remember certain prophets of doom on here saying the 3.0% ramps of the Goodwood Junction underpass would be impossible for the 3000/3100 class to handle) if European style EMUs with lightweight construction techniques are the only traffic, but not for a sustained climb on a mixed traffic route.

The key to make a more direct route realistic from an engineering point of view (if not actually viable to fund) is to have the tunnel bypass the current route's summit at Mt Lofty Station and come out at a point some way down the other side so the new climb can be a direct route without loops in it.

Mt Lofty Station shouldn't be considered to be a sacred cow that absolutely must be included in every suggestion for the route. Best to remember that we're talking about multi billion dollar suggestions here where the cost of a new flat pack station would be a rounding error on the total price tag, therefore it can be placed wherever it should be placed without being constrained by former station locations.
  wogman Station Staff

Location: One good foam away from Hawthorn station.

However, I've always wondered about using the Brown Hill Creek alignment from Mitcham station (76m) 7km at a mix of grade & elevated to near Crafers West (380m) with a short 3-4km tunnel to Mt Lofty station (492m)? You'd need some land aquisition and of course the semi rural locals wouldn't be happy having a new train line, but such a general alignment could potentially provide a long term solution?
Yappo
How do you propose to get from Mitcham station to the Brownhill Creek reserve?

More than a few "semi rural locals" in Torrens Park!!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Yappo has some very strange ideas about SA and very little actual knowledge.

Bulldozing a rail corridor through Torrens Park is absurd, but another one is their fanciful idea that the new ALP government will be a pro-rail government when the re-appointment of Tom Koutsantonis as Minister for Transport and Infrastructure is proof beyond reasonable doubt of an anti-rail agenda.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yappo has some very strange ideas about SA and very little actual knowledge.

Bulldozing a rail corridor through Torrens Park is absurd, but another one is their fanciful idea that the new ALP government will be a pro-rail government when the re-appointment of Tom Koutsantonis as Minister for Transport and Infrastructure is proof beyond reasonable doubt of an anti-rail agenda.
justapassenger
Considering the population of the SW ranges and the range and "vision" of the mutli billion projects been thrown around. I think a cheaper and more colourful proposal would be a cable car from Lynton station.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Would be handy for the MTB trails around the former quarry/landfill site.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park

However, I've always wondered about using the Brown Hill Creek alignment from Mitcham station (76m) 7km at a mix of grade & elevated to near Crafers West (380m) with a short 3-4km tunnel to Mt Lofty station (492m)? You'd need some land aquisition and of course the semi rural locals wouldn't be happy having a new train line, but such a general alignment could potentially provide a long term solution?How do you propose to get from Mitcham station to the Brownhill Creek reserve?

More than a few "semi rural locals" in Torrens Park!!
wogman
The railway follows the western bank of Brown Hill Creek from Goodwood to between Angas and Grange Roads, Hawthorn.   The creek heads of to the east under the shopping centre, and the line curves to the south west after Mitcham to climb the flank of the hill to the Sleeps Hill Tunnel rather than continuing to follow the creek.

One possible (???) tunnel is: enter the tunnel just below the Scotch College Oval and head to Balhannah.    There are only a dozen or so properties to acquire but it would require a level crossing of both Belair Road and the Belair railway, unless you enter the SG tunnel at Angas Road or even Hawthorn but this would put the ARTC line out of action for the duration.
On the other side of the range the line can head down Mt Barker Creek valley, cross the Bremer River valley on a viaduct and rejoin the south line at Monarto South.   There is the small matter of a private school in the way at Mt Barker and the waste water treatment ponds not long after, but think of the photo opportunities the viaduct will offer.

But the through traffic is likely to go via Parkes if it can be double stacked all the way so what is the point.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
The overall savings on fuel could offset the huge tunnel boring cost.

Bollocks!

And by 2025/6 most freight on the route will go via Parkes.
bingley hall
How much further and how many more hours longer though?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
The overall savings on fuel could offset the huge tunnel boring cost.

Bollocks!

And by 2025/6 most freight on the route will go via Parkes.
How much further and how many more hours longer though?
don_dunstan

Ultimately it will depend on the interstate operators PN and SCT, who know much more about such thing than either you, I, or anyone on Railpage for that matter.

It's hilarious when you hear the rail freight solutions for the Hills put out forward by the South Australian Transport Action Group and various politicians, none of whom have ever contacted the rail operators to ask them what they actually want. Despite the above rail part of the industry being privatised, everyone still wants to try and run it like its government owned.

The double stacking option and better interchange North South/East West interchange via Parkes may well override the additional cost, the extra hours may not be such a big thing. so long as you can depart Melbourne on Friday night and be in Perth by Monday morning then that's cool.

I have suggested SATAG contact the operators and ask them what their plans are, but up and until now they have been a bit shy about it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The overall savings on fuel could offset the huge tunnel boring cost.

Bollocks!

And by 2025/6 most freight on the route will go via Parkes.
How much further and how many more hours longer though?

Ultimately it will depend on the interstate operators PN and SCT, who know much more about such thing than either you, I, or anyone on Railpage for that matter.

It's hilarious when you hear the rail freight solutions for the Hills put out forward by the South Australian Transport Action Group and various politicians, none of whom have ever contacted the rail operators to ask them what they actually want. Despite the above rail part of the industry being privatised, everyone still wants to try and run it like its government owned.

The double stacking option and better interchange North South/East West interchange via Parkes may well override the additional cost, the extra hours may not be such a big thing. so long as you can depart Melbourne on Friday night and be in Perth by Monday morning then that's cool.

I have suggested SATAG contact the operators and ask them what their plans are, but up and until now they have been a bit shy about it.
bingley hall
It would appear Parkes will become the major rail double stacking hub for all three east coast major capitals and Adelaide, Perth and Darwin.

The Syd - BNE and MEL - ADEL lines will remain, but likely see less traffic that today due to the lack of direct traffic between these capitals.

Adelaide's position as a rail hub would appear to be reducing over the longer term.
  Yappo Train Controller


However, I've always wondered about using the Brown Hill Creek alignment from Mitcham station (76m) 7km at a mix of grade & elevated to near Crafers West (380m) with a short 3-4km tunnel to Mt Lofty station (492m)? You'd need some land aquisition and of course the semi rural locals wouldn't be happy having a new train line, but such a general alignment could potentially provide a long term solution?How do you propose to get from Mitcham station to the Brownhill Creek reserve?

More than a few "semi rural locals" in Torrens Park!!
wogman
I did clearly say some land aquisition would be required. A short 500-700m tunnel running under Scotch College footy oval to get beyond Anderson Ave would obviously be needed. I've always wondered if it could work via this general alignment. The semi rural locals ref was to those along Brown Hill creek up to Crafers west. Not sure if you've walk around there but there are some nice spots esp near the Crafers side. (Haven't done it for years and years though)
  Yappo Train Controller

76m to 380m in 7km needs an average gradient of 4.3% (aka 1 in 23) which is not realistic. Potentially okay for a short ramp linking to an overpass/underpass (though I do remember certain prophets of doom on here saying the 3.0% ramps of the Goodwood Junction underpass would be impossible for the 3000/3100 class to handle) if European style EMUs with lightweight construction techniques are the only traffic, but not for a sustained climb on a mixed traffic route.

The key to make a more direct route realistic from an engineering point of view (if not actually viable to fund) is to have the tunnel bypass the current route's summit at Mt Lofty Station and come out at a point some way down the other side so the new climb can be a direct route without loops in it.

Mt Lofty Station shouldn't be considered to be a sacred cow that absolutely must be included in every suggestion for the route. Best to remember that we're talking about multi billion dollar suggestions here where the cost of a new flat pack station would be a rounding error on the total price tag, therefore it can be placed wherever it should be placed without being constrained by former station locations.
justapassenger
Fair enough, I had a 4.2% gradient. I think you had 3.8% for a Heathfield tunnel which is a significant enough diff. I guess I've always assumed Lofty Station is needed for the Stirling catchment as I've used it in this exact manner in the past so you do make a good point about the need to avoid it if there was to be a more direct route. Indeed, it can be relocated. Heathfield is well, really not that well situated unless going to HHS or Lofty footy oval where I used to play.  Yes, the whole idea is somewhat fanciful, but potentially more realistical than the other crazy longer 18km or 42km tunnel suggestions! As I previously stated, your tunnel to Heathfield is seemingly the most realistic.

As for, "some very strange ideas about SA and very little actual knowledge." Yes there are plenty of parts of SA that I know little about, but is this not a discussion about the hills line In Adelaide? Don't make a fool of yourself like Dunstan did with misplaced assumptions as it is parochially petty, I am bloody well voting in the seat of Sturt. I dare say I may well have used the Belair to Bridgewater section more than anyone on here?

Having done literally hundreds and hundreds of trips in the 80s down to Adel and back home before the the line sadly closed, it led my younger self to wonder about potentials for a more direct, quicker alignment. Hence why I wrote "I've always wondered..." re Brown Hill creek potential. (Used to also catch the Overland a few times a year from Bridgewater to go to Melb)  Previously walked 90% of the line between Belair and Mt Barker Junction which I suspect very few have actually done - it used to be one of those local adventures that some locals did when we were young.

Obviously none of this past makes me an expert on the line, but I do have some longterm skin in this game. It'll be great to see the line eventually reopened one day in future so I can again train back up to the family home rather than drive. However, I do have a very low expectations. (And an even lower one on any potential realignment).

Let's see if the gauge changing, tilt train feasibility study happens first and then what it does actually recommend and if anything is implemented. Like others have said, it seems clear that Melb freight going via Adel will significantly reduce thus undermining any potential investment case for realignment of the Hills line (as well as a possbile Hills bypass?). Whatever does occur in the next decade, long term there does need to be a solution for this line and as I've previously stated the $2B-$3B that will inevitably be required in the late 20s to widen & upgrade the SE freeway would be better spent on providing mass transit options for MB of which a reopened Hills line should ideally be one in the medium term future. God knows we waste billions and billions in Oz major road widening projects only to end up with induced demand congestion again a few years later....
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

3.1% to Heathfield, if you start south of Lynton Station in the old quarry/landfill site. This is a realistic gradient for passenger EMUs and electric hauled freight, and just about possible for diesel hauled freight (not that it would be permitted) at low speed.

And just to be clear, I mean Heathfield the suburb, not the old Heathfield Station location. Just as with Mt Lofty Station, the priority for a realistic project (realistic in engineering terms only, not in terms of being viable) would be with finding the right spot for a station without previous station locations being a constraint.

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