Russia vs. Ukraine - Potential War?

 
Topic moved from The Lounge by dthead on 17 Feb 2022 16:36
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
How can you understand the Ukraine war, you have never been there!
RTT_Rules

And yet you understand everything there is to know about the Vietnam war.

Irony much? No, that's right - you don't do irony. Because sadly you just aren't that bright.

Sponsored advertisement

  lsrailfan Minister for Railways

Location: Somewhere you're not
Ukraine will win this war, because they have the hardware and the equipment to sustain a full on war, Russia does not have the stomach for such a conflict.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Take it easy on him, Don. He’s having a bad night in another thread too.

Also, Aaron said you’re smarter than me. Thought you’d want to know.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
How can you understand the Ukraine war, you have never been there!

And yet you understand everything there is to know about the Vietnam war.

Irony much? No, that's right - you don't do irony. Because sadly you just aren't that bright.
don_dunstan
You really have no F'n clue about what the hell is the difference between Ukraine and Russia do you?

I understand the difference between an invasion and a civil war, question is do you?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Take it easy on him, Don. He’s having a bad night in another thread too.

Also, Aaron said you’re smarter than me. Thought you’d want to know.
Sonofagunzel
Oh comon, you have spent what how many extremely long winded (even by my standards) posts avoiding a direct answer to a direct question. Rather you come up with a complete pile of waffle, using hypothehical ontop of hypothetical situations that are not even relevent to Australia to avoid providing direct answers. Even poor old Don is not as good as you at avoiding a simple question.

Its not just me, a number of posters have said similar in the same thread.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Ukraine will win this war, because they have the hardware and the equipment to sustain a full on war, Russia does not have the stomach for such a conflict.
lsrailfan
Stomach and political will will wane with a growing death toll as the death rate for Russian soliders if horrific and word is getting out. While Putin has not declared war on Ukraine it prevents him from using reservists and even prosecuting soliders who flee, although there are other repurcusions available.

Additionally its the cost. Quickly adding up some numbers Ukraine must be getting close to 33% (maybe more) of the annual Russian military spending budget, so far. Plus other additional aid.

Ukranians are fighting for their country and will fight hard, most of the push back against Hitler was actually Ukrainian fighters which is in part why Ukraine got conessions under USSR rule that other republics didn't get. Russian soliders will be asking the questions "why are we here?".
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
How can you understand the Ukraine war, you have never been there!
And yet you understand everything there is to know about the Vietnam war.

Irony much? No, that's right - you don't do irony. Because sadly you just aren't that bright.
You really have no F'n clue about what the hell is the difference between Ukraine and Russia do you?

I understand the difference between an invasion and a civil war, question is do you?
RTT_Rules
You've swallowed the propaganda on this war but then when pressed you can't explain why you believe what you do because (similar to Mike the Vinelander) you lack the understanding of what the issues actually are to be able to defend your position. Don't worry, you're not alone. You're just doing what they want you to do which is believe that the West is backing a noble and just cause in Ukraine, completely blind to the fact that it was rotten and dysfunctional just like the US State Department had been saying for the last eight years. We're just propping up a corrupt and incompetent kleptocracy exactly the same as the South Vietnamese government - a war that you continually mis-categorised as a civil war when really it was a proxy war between cold war rivals - again, because you lack a fundamental understanding of what the issues are.

Event the Afghanistan intervention you didn't seem to really understand - that wasn't a civil war either, it was the Coalition of the Willing verses fundamentalist Islamics. And we lost miserably, our piss-weak proxy government that they literally spent trillions installing and supporting over twenty years fell over in less than two weeks when US forces withdrew. Absolutely humiliating for the West and not widely discussed because we don't like talking about wars that we lost.

You seriously want to pour resources into defending yet another failed state, be my guest. But I don't support it because we've been down this path before and we always end up losing. Really its a harbinger of the West's terminal decline that we keep backing corrupt proxy states and losing wars - and Ukraine will turn out to be no different.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Take it easy on him, Don. He’s having a bad night in another thread too.

Also, Aaron said you’re smarter than me. Thought you’d want to know.
Oh comon, you have spent what how many extremely long winded (even by my standards) posts avoiding a direct answer to a direct question. Rather you come up with a complete pile of waffle, using hypothehical ontop of hypothetical situations that are not even relevent to Australia to avoid providing direct answers. Even poor old Don is not as good as you at avoiding a simple question.

Its not just me, a number of posters have said similar in the same thread.
RTT_Rules
You don't understand the difference between a civil war and a proxy war yet you have the temerity to call other people wrong.

And learn to spell and proof-read your own posts before hitting 'submit'. Your syntax is appalling, half the time nobody can work out what it is that you're saying.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Ukraine will win this war, because they have the hardware and the equipment to sustain a full on war, Russia does not have the stomach for such a conflict.
lsrailfan
We're only being fed the good news stories on Ukraine's gallant defence of its people - pure propaganda designed to soften us up for when they actually put boots on the ground there. They're also doing their level best to paint Putin as a crazy person, he's supposed to be dying from leukaemia or something which is why he's so 'unhinged'. Pure crap.

I was reading the other day that Xi Jinping is (supposedly) likely to be deposed by the military in China for his recent handling of COVID - I mean, how much of that can you actually believe. Isn't that just wishful thinking on behalf of the western propaganda machine - how would you ever know what the truth of the leadership in China is from where we are sitting.

We're lied to all the time about anything and everything - that's why you have to take in as much as you possibly can and make your own decisions about the truth. The more you find out about a situation usually it's very grey and hard to discern who is in the right and who is wrong. History shows us this time and time again.

People like Aaron and RTT_Rules want absolute "right or wrong" propositions but reality just isn't like that, when you go all absolutist like that it's usually a sign that you've been lied to.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Meanwhile, the Telegraph in the UK has a sob-story on Nazi wives trying to reconnect with their Nazi soldier husbands:


Reality is stranger than fiction.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
half the time nobody can work out what it is that you're saying.
don_dunstan
...and yet you still reply.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
You've swallowed the propaganda on this war but then when pressed you can't explain why you believe what you do because (similar to Mike the Vinelander) you lack the understanding of what the issues actually are to be able to defend your position. Don't worry, you're not alone. You're just doing what they want you to do which is believe that the West is backing a noble and just cause in Ukraine, completely blind to the fact that it was rotten and dysfunctional just like the US State Department had been saying for the last eight years. We're just propping up a corrupt and incompetent kleptocracy exactly the same as the South Vietnamese government - a war that you continually mis-categorised as a civil war when really it was a proxy war between cold war rivals - again, because you lack a fundamental understanding of what the issues are.

Event the Afghanistan intervention you didn't seem to really understand - that wasn't a civil war either, it was the Coalition of the Willing verses fundamentalist Islamics. And we lost miserably, our piss-weak proxy government that they literally spent trillions installing and supporting over twenty years fell over in less than two weeks when US forces withdrew. Absolutely humiliating for the West and not widely discussed because we don't like talking about wars that we lost.

You seriously want to pour resources into defending yet another failed state, be my guest. But I don't support it because we've been down this path before and we always end up losing. Really its a harbinger of the West's terminal decline that we keep backing corrupt proxy states and losing wars - and Ukraine will turn out to be no different.
don_dunstan
No Don,
Unlike you, I've been there. I know people from there, I do business with industries from there.

Unlike you, I'm aware there wasn't an issue prior to the 2014 invasion, a time frame you struggle to comprehend.

Most of the Corruption comes from Russia. No one is saying Ukraine or any of the former Eastern EU countries are perfect, hard to be when most of these countries achieved self rule for less than a generation ago after nearly 100 years of on and off occupation.

Once again, Vietnam war was based on civil war, led by Ho Chi Minh to reunit the country and kick out colonialism and yes supported by others. The war went through different phases over its very long history, but at the end the basis was the same and Ho Chi Minh achieved his goal. Civil wars are also messy as the enemy is not wearing a uniform and not always in front of you. The finacial support by China and USSR was driven by a common ideology.

ONE MORE TIME, Ukraine is not a civil war, they are working to kick out an invader try to take their indepence (again).

Afghan was both a civil war, Afghan (Taliban) vs Afghan (reformist) and kicking out the invaders (again).

Ukraine wasn't a failed state, its ecoomy was doing well prior to Russia invading with foreign investment. Their GDP peaked in 2008 following years of rapid growth, then surpassed the previous peak to achieve a record prior to the Russian invasion in 2014 and was on path to surpass that again prior to the 2022 invasion. Its GDP per capita is better than that of India and more evenly spread.

Had Russia stayed out of Ukraine full stop their GDP would likely be near double that of 2014.

Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 because they didn't like their puppet pro Russian leader being dumped in favour for a focus towards more interaction with EU and open economy and longterm potential to join the EU. Hardly the sign of a highly corrupt govt.

The only failed state is the one in your mind.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
No Don,
Unlike you, I've been there. I know people from there, I do business with industries from there.
RTT_Rules
I've been to Dubai a few times, does that mean I know everything there is to know about Dubai? Of course not.

Back in your box.
Unlike you, I'm aware there wasn't an issue prior to the 2014 invasion, a time frame you struggle to comprehend.
RTT_Rules
Did you mean to say there WAS an issue? Because the assertion that Putin invaded for no reason is just pure rubbish. I suspect you didn't read what you wrote before posting - yet again.
Once again, Vietnam war was based on civil war, led by Ho Chi Minh to reunit the country and kick out colonialism and yes supported by others. The war went through different phases over its very long history, but at the end the basis was the same and Ho Chi Minh achieved his goal. Civil wars are also messy as the enemy is not wearing a uniform and not always in front of you. The finacial support by China and USSR was driven by a common ideology.
RTT_Rules
So you admit that it was a proxy war fought by the communist world against the West?

Finally some progress.
ONE MORE TIME, Ukraine is not a civil war, they are working to kick out an invader try to take their indepence (again).
RTT_Rules
Where did I say Ukraine was a civil war? It is now turning into a proxy war like Vietnam with the involvement of the United States. Germany and France have been telling Zelenesky that he needs to get back to the negotiating table with Putin but he won't do it - he won't do it because he's deliberately trying to drag the West into the unwinnable quagmire that this war is turning into.

But according to you and your ilk, he can do no wrong.
Afghan was both a civil war, Afghan (Taliban) vs Afghan (reformist) and kicking out the invaders (again).
RTT_Rules
No. There would have been no war if the Coalition of the Willing hadn't invaded. The Taliban would have remained in power just like they are now - our twenty year invasion and occupation achieved exactly nothing. I don't know why you want to characterise the Afghanistan occupation as a civil war, it was the Coalition of the Willing versus the Taliban - end-of-story.
Ukraine wasn't a failed state...
RTT_Rules
Yes, it clearly was. As I've mentioned several times before the US State Department wrote a report every year on the situation in Ukraine and they clearly identified the lack of a proper judiciary, the lack of a rule of law, endemic corruption and the failure of the Ukrainian government to control their own military as constant issues. Sending weapons to this crooks is South Vietnam and Afghanistan all over again but as usual there's always some dolts who believe that we're fighting the good fight and that its necessary for us to interfere so the war gets dragged out.

Can you imagine what the US government could do with $40 billion on their own soil? You could probably fix some of the extreme urban blight across the US. But instead they're supporting Raytheon, Lockheed Martin et al by buying stuff of them to send to a bunch of kleptocratic crooks who will almost certainly end up using those weapons against civilians.

Again, if you want to keep apologising for a corrupt basket case of a government be my guest. But you're wrong - prolonging this war is wrong. At the very least the UN should step in and offer to peace-keep in eastern Ukraine but nobody is talking about that because they want the war to keep on brewing.

You can keep believing whatever you want to believe but you're still wrong.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Why have the USA given up on negotiating for peace, and instead keep propping up their military-industrial complex?

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/are-we-really-at-war-with-russia/
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Why have the USA given up on negotiating for peace, and instead keep propping up their military-industrial complex?

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/are-we-really-at-war-with-russia/
Carnot
Some decrepit old Democrat who is 82 years old is certainly not going to be fighting against Russia himself is he. Nor are his kids or grand-kids - but the proletariat kids from the ghettos will almost certainly be fighting that war on their behalf, just like they did in Iraq and Afghanistan. War mongers will never advocate for something that involves any direct personal sacrifice will they.

Senator Rand Paul is trying to hold up the Ukranian 'aid' package with an amendment that insists on a breakdown on where the money is actually going and how it will be spent and (surprise!) they're trying to paint him as a Putin supporter. What's unreasonable about wanting to know where that $40 billion is going?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Worth noting that Biden is sending troops back to Somalia.

And 300 Nazi Azov soldiers surrendered overnight in Ukraine.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


And 300 Nazi Azov soldiers surrendered overnight in Ukraine.
Carnot
They were the last hold out defending their city against a foreign invader (for the 2nd time) and you call them Nazi's?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
No Don,
Unlike you, I've been there. I know people from there, I do business with industries from there.
I've been to Dubai a few times, does that mean I know everything there is to know about Dubai? Of course not.

Back in your box.
Unlike you, I'm aware there wasn't an issue prior to the 2014 invasion, a time frame you struggle to comprehend.
Did you mean to say there WAS an issue? Because the assertion that Putin invaded for no reason is just pure rubbish. I suspect you didn't read what you wrote before posting - yet again.
Once again, Vietnam war was based on civil war, led by Ho Chi Minh to reunit the country and kick out colonialism and yes supported by others. The war went through different phases over its very long history, but at the end the basis was the same and Ho Chi Minh achieved his goal. Civil wars are also messy as the enemy is not wearing a uniform and not always in front of you. The finacial support by China and USSR was driven by a common ideology.
So you admit that it was a proxy war fought by the communist world against the West?

Finally some progress.
ONE MORE TIME, Ukraine is not a civil war, they are working to kick out an invader try to take their indepence (again).
Where did I say Ukraine was a civil war? It is now turning into a proxy war like Vietnam with the involvement of the United States. Germany and France have been telling Zelenesky that he needs to get back to the negotiating table with Putin but he won't do it - he won't do it because he's deliberately trying to drag the West into the unwinnable quagmire that this war is turning into.

But according to you and your ilk, he can do no wrong.
Afghan was both a civil war, Afghan (Taliban) vs Afghan (reformist) and kicking out the invaders (again).
No. There would have been no war if the Coalition of the Willing hadn't invaded. The Taliban would have remained in power just like they are now - our twenty year invasion and occupation achieved exactly nothing. I don't know why you want to characterise the Afghanistan occupation as a civil war, it was the Coalition of the Willing versus the Taliban - end-of-story.
Ukraine wasn't a failed state...
Yes, it clearly was. As I've mentioned several times before the US State Department wrote a report every year on the situation in Ukraine and they clearly identified the lack of a proper judiciary, the lack of a rule of law, endemic corruption and the failure of the Ukrainian government to control their own military as constant issues. Sending weapons to this crooks is South Vietnam and Afghanistan all over again but as usual there's always some dolts who believe that we're fighting the good fight and that its necessary for us to interfere so the war gets dragged out.

Can you imagine what the US government could do with $40 billion on their own soil? You could probably fix some of the extreme urban blight across the US. But instead they're supporting Raytheon, Lockheed Martin et al by buying stuff of them to send to a bunch of kleptocratic crooks who will almost certainly end up using those weapons against civilians.

Again, if you want to keep apologising for a corrupt basket case of a government be my guest. But you're wrong - prolonging this war is wrong. At the very least the UN should step in and offer to peace-keep in eastern Ukraine but nobody is talking about that because they want the war to keep on brewing.

You can keep believing whatever you want to believe but you're still wrong.
don_dunstan
I grew up and lived for 40 years in Australia and spent the best part of a year there over the last decade, yet we all know how you crap on "I don't live there", so don't BS yourself Don.

Don, prior to 2014, the region was peaceful.

I admit that the prime purpose of the Vietnam war was to unify the country and independence from colonial rule. They were supported by USSR and China due to previous support.

In comparing Ukraine to Vietnam, you are implying its a civil war.

Zelensky has very publically offered Putin to join him at the table, Putin has never accepted.

Zelensky wants his people's independence, he did not ask for his country invaded, flatten, people killed, women raped, etc. Putin did that. Putin lack of surgical strikes is clear of Putin's goal, ie wipe the Ukrainian people out or drive them to flee knowing they won't come back.

WW2 would have been alot shorter if we had not fought back against the Germans or Japanese, so I assume you support this too.

Ukraine economy was doing very well, and best it has been since indepence in 1991. Like all the former USSR states including Russia, it took nearly a decade for these economies to find their feet and more than one had the odd revolution or two. Not that surprising when you consider what has happened. Despite the cost of the 2014 invasion, the Ukraine economy was doing better than Russia. This is not a failed state Don!

Could you imagine what not funding the welfare state of Australia, SA would do for the Australian economy?

I'm not the one reading Putin BS Don.
  Carnot Minister for Railways



And 300 Nazi Azov soldiers surrendered overnight in Ukraine.They were the last hold out defending their city against a foreign invader (for the 2nd time) and you call them Nazi's?
RTT_Rules
Because they are Nazis: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I grew up and lived for 40 years in Australia and spent the best part of a year there over the last decade, yet we all know how you crap on "I don't live there", so don't BS yourself Don.

Don, prior to 2014, the region was peaceful.

I admit that the prime purpose of the Vietnam war was to unify the country and independence from colonial rule. They were supported by USSR and China due to previous support.

In comparing Ukraine to Vietnam, you are implying its a civil war.

Zelensky has very publically offered Putin to join him at the table, Putin has never accepted.

Zelensky wants his people's independence, he did not ask for his country invaded, flatten, people killed, women raped, etc. Putin did that. Putin lack of surgical strikes is clear of Putin's goal, ie wipe the Ukrainian people out or drive them to flee knowing they won't come back.

WW2 would have been alot shorter if we had not fought back against the Germans or Japanese, so I assume you support this too.

Ukraine economy was doing very well, and best it has been since indepence in 1991. Like all the former USSR states including Russia, it took nearly a decade for these economies to find their feet and more than one had the odd revolution or two. Not that surprising when you consider what has happened. Despite the cost of the 2014 invasion, the Ukraine economy was doing better than Russia. This is not a failed state Don!

Could you imagine what not funding the welfare state of Australia, SA would do for the Australian economy?

I'm not the one reading Putin BS Don.
RTT_Rules
You're still wrong and you still don't understand what the actual issues are - so you thrash around creating false analogies and wrong assumptions in the hope that it'll make you right.

The economy of Ukraine has zero to do with it being a failed state. You can have a laissez faire economy that produces good figures on the surface but the reality was that Ukraine's gas was being stolen from its people and sold to Europe to fund the corruption of the elites. Ordinary Ukrainians couldn't afford to heat their homes any longer thanks to the huge amount of graft that was going on. But you don't want to know about that because it disproves your argument that it was functional.

Did you read what the US State Department was saying about Ukraine? Of course not because it proves that I'm right and you deliberately avoid any conflicting information.

And I'm not implying that Ukraine is a civil war, it's very clearly a proxy war the same as Vietnam. It's become pointless trying to have any kind of a conversation with you about this because you clearly don't understand how the comparison is valid and I'm just wasting my time trying to explain it to you.
  WimbledonW Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Here is a 1934 book title of which Putin does not seem to have ever read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Sanctions impact update in Russia.

Moscow government has 'acquired' Renault's manufacturing facilities in Russia. Russia is going to resume domestic car manufacturing, to facilitate this, Russian regulators have removed the laws surrounding vehicle design requiring mandatory air bag and ABS systems - Russia has no domestic ability to design, or manufacture these systems.

Russian roads, especially in the north and east in winter should be nice and safe in cars with no ABS and airbags on roads with unpredictable icing conditions.

The Russian domestic vehicle product will be fantastic, under sanctions the vehicles will have no option for stability control, yaw dampening, on board computers, EFI, digital radio, bluetooth, GPS (they only might be able to have GLONASS navigation), should be really high quality product. The good news is, they might be able to offer it in both two and four stroke options - as someone who has driven a two stroke Sirenka, buy the four stroke, a two stroke car with no direct injection of oil is really hard to drive!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Almost forgot, my friend in St Petersburg said he bought potatos yesterday, he used to pay about RUB35/kg - yesterday they were RUB160/kg. What we call buckwheat (does anybody aside from my wife eat that here?) was not available - this is a serious issue in Russia, apparently it is super popular there.

Needless to say his income has not increased 4x
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Sanctions impact update in Russia.

Moscow government has 'acquired' Renault's manufacturing facilities in Russia. Russia is going to resume domestic car manufacturing, to facilitate this, Russian regulators have removed the laws surrounding vehicle design requiring mandatory air bag and ABS systems - Russia has no domestic ability to design, or manufacture these systems.

Russian roads, especially in the north and east in winter should be nice and safe in cars with no ABS and airbags on roads with unpredictable icing conditions.

The Russian domestic vehicle product will be fantastic, under sanctions the vehicles will have no option for stability control, yaw dampening, on board computers, EFI, digital radio, bluetooth, GPS (they only might be able to have GLONASS navigation), should be really high quality product. The good news is, they might be able to offer it in both two and four stroke options - as someone who has driven a two stroke Sirenka, buy the four stroke, a two stroke car with no direct injection of oil is really hard to drive!
Aaron
The Lada Samara might make a spectacular return...  

AvtoVAZ still make the Niva 4WD which has a legendary reputation and cult following.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Sanctions impact update in Russia.

Moscow government has 'acquired' Renault's manufacturing facilities in Russia. Russia is going to resume domestic car manufacturing, to facilitate this, Russian regulators have removed the laws surrounding vehicle design requiring mandatory air bag and ABS systems - Russia has no domestic ability to design, or manufacture these systems.

Russian roads, especially in the north and east in winter should be nice and safe in cars with no ABS and airbags on roads with unpredictable icing conditions.

The Russian domestic vehicle product will be fantastic, under sanctions the vehicles will have no option for stability control, yaw dampening, on board computers, EFI, digital radio, bluetooth, GPS (they only might be able to have GLONASS navigation), should be really high quality product. The good news is, they might be able to offer it in both two and four stroke options - as someone who has driven a two stroke Sirenka, buy the four stroke, a two stroke car with no direct injection of oil is really hard to drive!
The Lada Samara might make a spectacular return...  

AvtoVAZ still make the Niva 4WD which has a legendary reputation and cult following.
Carnot
Niva is effectively a GM product - let's see AvtoVAZ make a reputable version without all the GM bits...

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: