Abortion v non Abortion

 
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

@WimbledonW

If you want to have a discussion about the policy issues you raised, I’m more than happy to.  

What do you think should be done?

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  doyle Chief Commissioner

I really want to know    (serious question)

A female that you probably don't know has an abortion how does this affect anyone not involved and why?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The pro-choice premise is largely utilitarian and dehumanising.
I agree it’s utilitarian. I also agree it’s dehumanising but that’s more an opinion or value than a fact.

There is a deep-seated philosophical reason why the left is pro-choice. It’s not the reason they think it is. But that’s some seriously heavy smeg that’s not worth getting into in a forum like this.

As for Margaret Sanger, I don’t know that much about her. I know she’s reputed to have been all the things you said, but I really don’t know. I also don’t really care - even if she set up planned parenthood as a eugenics mission, that doesn’t prove that planned parenthood still secretly has that mission today. It strikes me as being the same kind of reasoning that has lefties tearing down statues of Jefferson et al.
Sonofagunzel
Ironically Planned Parenthood spent decades whitewashing Sanger's history, even up to a few years ago.  But now they are "embarrassed" about her:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/07/21/margaret-sanger-planned-parenthood-eugenics/

Today PP seems to see $$$ more than anything.  Including illegally selling baby body parts to scientists (the David Dalieden controversy, which had Kamala Harris as AG pushing hard to prosecute the investigative journalist, not PP).
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I really want to know    (serious question)

A female that you probably don't know has an abortion how does this affect anyone not involved and why?
doyle
I will reword this (and I know this will be distressing):

A woman that I don't know asks a hitman to kill her young child....
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

I really want to know    (serious question)

A female that you probably don't know has an abortion how does this affect anyone not involved and why?
doyle
Also intrigued as to why people with a pro-choice belief is not the reason they think it is, according to sonofagunzel.
  doyle Chief Commissioner

really want to know    (serious question)

A female that you probably don't know has an abortion how does this affect anyone not involved and why?
doyle

I will reword this (and I know this will be distressing):

A woman that I don't know asks a hitman to kill her young child....
Carnot

How is this remotely the same?
  doyle Chief Commissioner

Its not
  doyle Chief Commissioner

That's all i needed to know

Carnot you once called me Kim Jong-un because i reckon religious institutions should be taxed, that's fine i laughed

Your answer reinforces my belief that people who believe in Gods are just crackpots

Each to their own
  Carnot Minister for Railways

At the end of the day we're all answerable to God...
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

At the end of the day we're all answerable to God...
Carnot
Not me.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
At the end of the day we're all answerable to God...
"Carnot"
What proof would you like to share with us?
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

That's all i needed to know

Carnot you once called me Kim Jong-un because i reckon religious institutions should be taxed, that's fine i laughed

Your answer reinforces my belief that people who believe in Gods are just crackpots

Each to their own
doyle

Put simply, Carnot and I believe that human life starts at some point prior to birth*. It’s a baby in there that’s being killed.

I don’t expect you to agree with this answer, but I don’t see why it’s hard to understand. I certainly don’t think it makes anyone a crackpot.

Now it may well be that Carnot’s religious beliefs influenced or even determined his attitude to abortion. But he didn’t reference those beliefs in the post you responded to. Further, you don’t need to believe in any gods to come to the conclusion Carnot and I have come to in relation to  abortion.

Frankly, your response demonstrates that you weren’t asking a genuine question.  

But as you say, each to their own.

__________________________
* This isn’t a precise statement of my position, but it will do for the purposes of this post.  Also, there are different views about how long before birth life starts. I don’t know exactly where Carnot stands on that.
  doyle Chief Commissioner

No that was a serious question, i got an answer, that was all i needed
Thank you
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

I really want to know    (serious question)

A female that you probably don't know has an abortion how does this affect anyone not involved and why?
Also intrigued as to why people with a pro-choice belief is not the reason they think it is, according to sonofagunzel.
michaelgm
I’m going to regret this. I know this is a waste of my time.

Here’s a helicopter-level summary, written on the fly.

The left looks at the world and doesn’t like what they see. It’s brutal, unfair, unforgiving. They do not see this as natural or inevitable, but as the result of the exercise of power.  Even our understanding of reality itself is not natural or inevitable, it is the result of the exercise of power. The best way to deal with it is to change it for the better, and they believe they know how, if they could just break the existing power structure. That means ousting the group that currently has power and replacing it with new group of which they are all part. Society gets better when they band together and make a new and better reality where everyone is equal. It’s all about the group.

The right looks at the world and doesn’t like what they see. It’s brutal, unfair, unforgiving. They see this as natural and inevitable, it is what it is. The best way to deal with it is to turn it to your advantage. That means understanding reality better than everyone else. If you don’t understand reality, it eats you. No one really knows how to make the world better, each person makes their decisions and then they either benefit from or suffer the consequences. When everyone does this, there are winners and losers, it’s just the way it is. The losers die, or live to try again. People copy the winners, or benefit from the things the winners can provide. In this way, society gets better and more resilient, all by itself. All it takes is for everyone to act in their own interests and have the right to personally benefit from their own efforts and decisions. It’s all about the individual.

Draw your own conclusions as to how these two attitudes play out with respect to abortion.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

No that was a serious question, i got an answer, that was all i needed
Thank you
doyle
Then how did you dismiss his answer so easily?

Here’s a multiple choice question:

A doctor is just about to deliver a baby. The would-be mother, nine months pregnant, suddenly gets cold feet and asks the doctor to kill the baby.

Situation A: The doctor extracts the live baby from the mother, and then kills the baby.  

Situation B: The doctor kills the baby while still inside the mother, then extracts the dead baby.

Which situation is morally should be legally acceptable?

  1. Both A and B
  2. Neither A nor B
  3. A only
  4. B only

_________________________________
Question edited 17/5/2022 at 11am.
  doyle Chief Commissioner

Then how did you dismiss his answer so easily?

Something about a hitman, that to me makes no sense, it is a completely different proposition, to my mind the answer was a non answer, and thats all i needed to know.

The unanswered question remains what has someone's choices that dont affect you or me matter to you and anyone else that has similar beliefs, it clearly has no bearing whatsoever on our lives, only those involved in that choice.

Sorry man that's just how i see it, it's a non issue
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

And my question?
  doyle Chief Commissioner

No...
I have six children abortion was never discussed nor entered our minds.. ever

Im pro choice,

That is a choice i would of had much difficulty with, we had a miscarriage in 1989 we both still feel that lose,.

Still pro choice
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

No...
I have six children abortion was never discussed nor entered our minds.. ever

Im pro choice,

That is a choice i would of had much difficulty with, we had a miscarriage in 1989 we both still feel that lose,.

Still pro choice
doyle
I know this is a sensitive topic, and I’m sorry you had to go through that.

To be clear, I’m not asking what you’d do. I’m asking what you think of the doctor’s actions in my question.

It may be that you’re uncomfortable because my question (in its original form) asks for a moral judgment of someone else. Maybe you’re not comfortable with that - fair enough.

What if I instead ask you which of the given situations should be legally acceptable?  I’ve edited my post to ask this question instead.
  WimbledonW Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney

What if I instead ask you which of the given situations should be legally acceptable?  I’ve edited my post to ask this question instead.
Sonofagunzel
Some but not all abortion laws to give tolerance to cases where the life of the mother is at risk. A counter example comes in the Economist of May 14 2022, thus.



A 28-year old woman in El Salvador was sentenced to 30 years in prison for the death of her unborn child following an obstetric emergency. Abortion is illegal in the country.

See also El Salvador mother, 28, is jailed for 30 years for 'homicide' after suffering a miscarriage Daily Mail Online

[color=#222222][size=4][font=Lora]The Salvadoran Penal Code since 1998 prohibits abortion in all cases and establishes penalties of up to 8 years. However, prosecutors and judges even classify cases of involuntary abortion as “aggravated homicide”, with sentences of up to 50 years.

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Economist
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

@WimbledonW

Absolutely, and of course they should.

But I’m not asking about that in this case. In this case, she’s just changed her mind, or become nervous about being a mother, or decided she can’t afford a baby, or decided at the last minute that a baby would interfere with her career or lifestyle too much.

I completely agree that my multiple choice question doesn’t cover all possible situations. Abortions are done for all sorts of reasons - everything from routine retrospective contraception, to parental or societal pressure, to poverty, to protect the mothers mental or physical health, to foetal deformity or non viability, or to situations that are an imminent threat to the life of the mother. And obviously very few abortions are performed so late.

All those nuances and more remain to be discussed.

For now, I’m just trying to establish a baseline of each person’s views on this case.

I’m genuinely puzzled at why the pro choicers here seem reluctant to answer any questions, possibly even to the point of stubborn refusal.

And no, @RTT_Rules, I didn’t refuse to answer your questions. I did, five times. I provided you with the information you actually want in my first reply, and reasons why your question was the wrong one in same reply.  You’ve completely ignored all my answers and reasoned responses.

Because you insisted on getting an answer to a question I told you was irrelevant, I gave you a direct answer to the question you actually asked, only for you to blame me for giving you a response that you found irrelevant!

@RTT_Rules, will you answer the multiple choice question I asked Doyle?
  doyle Chief Commissioner

I’m genuinely puzzled at why the pro choicers here seem reluctant to answer any questions, possibly even to the point of stubborn refusal.

No.. I am pro choice, no questions about this are needed, it is a personal choice to me its just that simple.

When you talk about people unknown killing each other well that is just lawlessness, and has no bearing on abortion laws and freedom of choice, most people do the right thing and have little or no interaction with the judicial system.
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

No.. I am pro choice, no questions about this are needed, it is a personal choice to me its just that simple.

When you talk about people unknown killing each other well that is just lawlessness, and has no bearing on abortion laws and freedom of choice, most people do the right thing and have little or no interaction with the judicial system.
doyle
So based on that response, I think you might say that it’s legally ok for the woman in my question to ask for an abortion at nine months, and for the doctor to carry out that request. It’s just a matter between them and their own consciences.

Presumably you might also say that it’s not legally ok for the doctor or the mother to kill the baby after it’s born.

Is that a fair summary?
  doyle Chief Commissioner

I reckon we need a safe word..
  Sonofagunzel Minister for Railways

Normally when a person says they don’t want to debate something with me, I don’t. But I make (and take) exception where someone decides to step into a debate, calls one side crackpots (or worse), refuses to explain their own position and refuses to deal with any counter-arguments. Especially when they want to be let off the hook and have the last word.

In these “hit and run” cases, it’s I think it’s fair to insist on some basic answers and accountability for the slurs they decided to hurl.

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