Renewable energy thread 2022

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
This won't suit the representative from SA's narrative either...

https://www.theage.com.au/national/renewable-energy-isn-t-to-blame-for-rising-power-prices-20220529-p5apcz.html

The dramatic shift in our energy grid out of coal and gas will create huge challenges, but renewables are not the cause of the problem. They are part of the solution.

Mike.

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  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
This won't suit the representative from SA's narrative either...
The Vinelander
Show me a nation on the face of the planet that has successfully transitioned beyond 50% total renewable energy without major problems and/or having to rely on nuclear?

You can't because they don't exist. We're running headlong into the exact same problems that are plaguing Germany and the UK and here we have useful idiots in this country cheering it on.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

This won't suit the representative from SA's narrative either...
Show me a nation on the face of the planet that has successfully transitioned beyond 50% total renewable energy without major problems and/or having to rely on nuclear?

You can't because they don't exist. We're running headlong into the exact same problems that are plaguing Germany and the UK and here we have useful idiots in this country cheering it on.
don_dunstan
Iceland.  100% renewables for their electricity grid.  It does help that they have volcanoes and lots of mountains and rainfall.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
The threat posed by carbon dioxide has been hyped for more than half a century - and still the predictions of doom fail to materialise. Here's a press release from the White House under the Nixon administration tell us that New York and Washington D.C. would be 10 feet underwater by the year 2000:

  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
This won't suit the representative from SA's narrative either...
Show me a nation on the face of the planet that has successfully transitioned beyond 50% total renewable energy without major problems and/or having to rely on nuclear?

You can't because they don't exist. We're running headlong into the exact same problems that are plaguing Germany and the UK and here we have useful idiots in this country cheering it on.
Iceland.  100% renewables for their electricity grid.  It does help that they have volcanoes and lots of mountains and rainfall.
Carnot
For a start (as you rightly point out), not everyone has that topography with large fjords suitable for hydro electricity - and even where the topography exists in this country (Tasmania, Victoria) we aren't allowed to construct new dams. Iceland has a very small population (360,000) relatively speaking so their demand for electricity is similarly small. Also I don't believe geothermal to be a truly 'renewable' source of electricity because of the intensive engineering and huge expense involved - it has largely failed in New Zealand because the pipes designed to capture the heat actually cool the area they're planted in and have to be regularly relocated. Costs a fortune.

Tim Flannery - the darling of the Rudd/Gillard government, was given a huge grant of $90,000,000 in 2009 to set up an experimental geothermal power station in outback South Australia with the assistance of the University of Adelaide but basically failed for the above reasons. It struggled on for several years before finally closing in 2016, deemed a failure. From the ABC:

Before the closure, the company had managed to extract super-heated water from five kilometres below the earth’s surface and use it to generate small amounts of electricity.

“The technology worked but unfortunately the cost of implementing the technology and also the cost of delivering the electricity that was produced to a market was just greater than the revenue stream that we could create,” Geodynamics chief executive Chris Murray said.

Professor Martin Hand ran the South Australian Centre for Geothermal Energy Research at the University of Adelaide.

“I think it was talked up too much — it’s a very nice concept on the front page of a newspaper, looks very easy to do, and I think it was over-spruiked,” he said.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
The wholesale cost of electricity is going through the roof despite claims that (cheaper?) renewables now constitute (up to) 30% of baseload power in 2022 - from the Financial Review (pay-wall):

The wholesale electricity price went from $48.90 a megawatt-hour in September to $77.17/MWh by January, then to just more than $100/MWh by March, according to Schneider Electric. But this month, they are running at more than $300/MWh, and forward prices have also surged.

Spot gas prices on the east coast have gone from less than $10 a gigajoule at the start of the year to average about $16/GJ in April, but were at $50/GJ in Sydney on Friday.

The reaction of the incoming Albanese government will be to spend even bigger on renewables, but who pays for that?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

The wholesale cost of electricity is going through the roof despite claims that (cheaper?) renewables now constitute (up to) 30% of baseload power in 2022 - from the Financial Review (pay-wall):

The wholesale electricity price went from $48.90 a megawatt-hour in September to $77.17/MWh by January, then to just more than $100/MWh by March, according to Schneider Electric. But this month, they are running at more than $300/MWh, and forward prices have also surged.

Spot gas prices on the east coast have gone from less than $10 a gigajoule at the start of the year to average about $16/GJ in April, but were at $50/GJ in Sydney on Friday.

The reaction of the incoming Albanese government will be to spend even bigger on renewables, but who pays for that?
don_dunstan
Prices will always be low in Spring (much lower than burning fossil fuels), and high in Autumn/Winter.  It's something we're just going to have to adapt to, especially with gas running out in Bass Strait.

How will you adapt?

P.S. I'm very pro-nuclear energy if they can get the price right.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
This won't suit the representative from SA's narrative either...
Show me a nation on the face of the planet that has successfully transitioned beyond 50% total renewable energy without major problems and/or having to rely on nuclear?

You can't because they don't exist. We're running headlong into the exact same problems that are plaguing Germany and the UK and here we have useful idiots in this country cheering it on.
don_dunstan

I post the evidence for all.

I won't engage any further with a random who's clueless and is offering personal opinions only.

M.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
This won't suit the representative from SA's narrative either...
Show me a nation on the face of the planet that has successfully transitioned beyond 50% total renewable energy without major problems and/or having to rely on nuclear?

You can't because they don't exist. We're running headlong into the exact same problems that are plaguing Germany and the UK and here we have useful idiots in this country cheering it on.
Iceland.  100% renewables for their electricity grid.  It does help that they have volcanoes and lots of mountains and rainfall.
For a start (as you rightly point out), not everyone has that topography with large fjords suitable for hydro electricity - and even where the topography exists in this country (Tasmania, Victoria) we aren't allowed to construct new dams. Iceland has a very small population (360,000) relatively speaking so their demand for electricity is similarly small. Also I don't believe geothermal to be a truly 'renewable' source of electricity because of the intensive engineering and huge expense involved - it has largely failed in New Zealand because the pipes designed to capture the heat actually cool the area they're planted in and have to be regularly relocated. Costs a fortune.

Tim Flannery - the darling of the Rudd/Gillard government, was given a huge grant of $90,000,000 in 2009 to set up an experimental geothermal power station in outback South Australia with the assistance of the University of Adelaide but basically failed for the above reasons. It struggled on for several years before finally closing in 2016, deemed a failure. From the ABC:

Before the closure, the company had managed to extract super-heated water from five kilometres below the earth’s surface and use it to generate small amounts of electricity.

“The technology worked but unfortunately the cost of implementing the technology and also the cost of delivering the electricity that was produced to a market was just greater than the revenue stream that we could create,” Geodynamics chief executive Chris Murray said.

Professor Martin Hand ran the South Australian Centre for Geothermal Energy Research at the University of Adelaide.

“I think it was talked up too much — it’s a very nice concept on the front page of a newspaper, looks very easy to do, and I think it was over-spruiked,” he said.
don_dunstan
Iceland has only 360,000 people, but it produces aroudn 1mtpa of aluminium which adds another 2GW to the demand, basically the equivalent of about 1m people.

Iceland Geothermal is long existing and expanding, sort it for myself last year. What would you like to know? The ground is so hot they have elevated board walks around the plant to protect your feet. The plant area I visited had been there for decades.

Iceland probably won't be building to many more new dams any time soon due to rising local opposition. Pretty why Iceland won't be getting a 4th aluminium smelter.

Iceland is currently reviewing the options of wind farms as the future growth in its domestic energy needs as Iceland has to import all its hydrocarbons. There are mixed attitdes towards the wind energy and a few test turbines have been installed. As Iceland wants to get off imported energy for finacial as well envionment reasons there is a major incentive to go down this path unless they agree to more dams or can find additional suitable locations for geothermal.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The wholesale cost of electricity is going through the roof despite claims that (cheaper?) renewables now constitute (up to) 30% of baseload power in 2022 - from the Financial Review (pay-wall):

The wholesale electricity price went from $48.90 a megawatt-hour in September to $77.17/MWh by January, then to just more than $100/MWh by March, according to Schneider Electric. But this month, they are running at more than $300/MWh, and forward prices have also surged.

Spot gas prices on the east coast have gone from less than $10 a gigajoule at the start of the year to average about $16/GJ in April, but were at $50/GJ in Sydney on Friday.

The reaction of the incoming Albanese government will be to spend even bigger on renewables, but who pays for that?
don_dunstan
Prices rising due to exposure of the gas and black coal electricity generation sectors to global markets, which we all know have gone through the roof. Ironically solar, wind and hydro are not.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
I post the evidence for all.
The Vinelander
You post snippets from newspapers and often it's just from opinion pieces. You are an evidence-free zone.
Iceland Geothermal is long existing and expanding, sort it for myself last year. What would you like to know? The ground is so hot they have elevated board walks around the plant to protect your feet. The plant area I visited had been there for decades.
RTT_Rules
In New Zealand they've caused some significant environmental problems - being the disappearance of hot springs and geysers because the heat is being taken away. Many plants have been in operation for decades but they're not popular because of the changes they cause to their surroundings and its likely there won't be any more built despite their being ostensibly zero carbon. And again, once the heat has been tapped the pipes need moving to a new location where the heat is better so they need constant attention.

The ones in Iceland might be much hotter and therefore more successful - and in areas that weren't as contentious as the siting of the New Zealand ones - but it certainly didn't work at all when it was tried here.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
The NSW government decides to give "eligible" households up to $1,600 per year in grants rather than tackle the high price of power - Canstar;

The New South Wales government has announced a welcome boost to its assistance payment for energy customers currently experiencing financial hardship due to soaring power prices.

NSW Energy Minster Matt Kean revealed the Energy Accounts Payment Assistance Scheme will increase from $300 to $400 per application from Monday, with up to $1,600 in vouchers available to eligible households each year.

“Eligible customers can receive payment assistance of up to $400 per application for electricity and up to $400 per application for gas bills twice a year. This means the annual maximum limit of vouchers has increased from $1,200 to $1,600 per household,” Mr Kean said.

The increase in payments is part of a $330 million package from the state government which includes energy rebates for around one million households.

It comes as the Australian Energy Regulator (AER) revealed default power prices will rise on 1 July, which will likely inflate residential bills over winter and beyond.

This is a temporary fix that solves nothing - the NSW government is borrowing money to give to people so they can pay their power bills rather than trying to make power cheaper.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Iceland Geothermal is long existing and expanding, sort it for myself last year. What would you like to know? The ground is so hot they have elevated board walks around the plant to protect your feet. The plant area I visited had been there for decades.
In New Zealand they've caused some significant environmental problems - being the disappearance of hot springs and geysers because the heat is being taken away. Many plants have been in operation for decades but they're not popular because of the changes they cause to their surroundings and its likely there won't be any more built despite their being ostensibly zero carbon. And again, once the heat has been tapped the pipes need moving to a new location where the heat is better so they need constant attention.

The ones in Iceland might be much hotter and therefore more successful - and in areas that weren't as contentious as the siting of the New Zealand ones - but it certainly didn't work at all when it was tried here.
don_dunstan
Yep, land subsidence and issues with waste water. Mostly been or in process of correction through reinjection of cascade reuse of the water. ie waste water used to heat prawn farms etc. Some thermal pools were converted to rock valleys and now corrected.

Tahura stage 2 was approved in 2021 and under construction. Others may follow after complying with modern Env requirements.

Australia lacks a few key inputs to Geothermal, ie a volcano would help. What they were trying for in Australia was I suspect likely to work one day, you just need to drill a deep enough hole.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-05-30/solar-farm-grazing-sheep-agriculture-renewable-energy-review/101097364



Another Don'ism, conspiracy theory of what happens under a solar farm goes up in smoke. Sheep grazing, who'd have thought a solar farm can be dual purpose.

Mr Warren's sheep were able to graze almost all through the drought years thanks to condensation from the panels

He said he credited the good season and the solar panels for the improvement.

Carrying capacity increase of 25pc
While Mr Ostini's sheep were lighter stocked than average, Dubbo farmer and grazier Tom Warren's were slightly higher.

Mr Warren leases part of his land to a solar farm and runs about 250 merino ewes and wethers on 54 hectares among the panels.

Like Mr Ostini, Mr Warren also reported impressive results.

He has not noticed an increase in wool quantity but said the quality had improved.

"It'll be because of the conditions the sheep are living in," he said.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
So you found ONE example and you think that means agricultural uses are compatible with solar panels?

I noticed how you quietly gave up on bird deaths, probably because you realised I was right and you couldn't win on that one. Even Bob Brown, the former leader of the Australian Greens, has spoken out about the placement of wind turbines and HV lines near colonies of endangered birds.

Renewable energy creates its very own environmental problems - it's not a zero sum thing.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Australia lacks a few key inputs to Geothermal, ie a volcano would help. What they were trying for in Australia was I suspect likely to work one day, you just need to drill a deep enough hole.
RTT_Rules
Didn't you read what I posed earlier on? Tim Flannery's team wasted $90 million of taxpayer dollars drilling holes that were 5 kilometers deep and they still couldn't produce geothermal energy at an rate that was economical.

It will not work in Australia - full-stop.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Prices rising due to exposure of the gas and black coal electricity generation sectors to global markets, which we all know have gone through the roof. Ironically solar, wind and hydro are not.
RTT_Rules
The price of coal and gas is going through the roof because solar and wind are not fit for purpose and cannot replace fossil fuels as a reliable or scaleable source of energy for a modern society.

Supposedly we have (potentially) 30% of our power needs in Australia being provided by renewables in Australia in 2022 - so why isn't the price of power coming down corresponding with the increased proportion of renewables?

It's because they're rubbish and they don't work is the short answer.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
So you found ONE example and you think that means agricultural uses are compatible with solar panels?

I noticed how you quietly gave up on bird deaths, probably because you realised I was right and you couldn't win on that one. Even Bob Brown, the former leader of the Australian Greens, has spoken out about the placement of wind turbines and HV lines near colonies of endangered birds.

Renewable energy creates its very own environmental problems - it's not a zero sum thing.
don_dunstan

One example in media, I've seen a few in person very similar in three countries now. ie grazing under solar.

Didn't give up on bird deaths, i posted some stuff that contradicted your comments.


There are places wind turbines should not be built, but it doesn't apply to every wind farm, a concept you seem to struggle with when refering to types of birds killed.

RE is not perfect, nothing is, but its becoming more perfect that coal everyday.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Australia lacks a few key inputs to Geothermal, ie a volcano would help. What they were trying for in Australia was I suspect likely to work one day, you just need to drill a deep enough hole.
Didn't you read what I posed earlier on? Tim Flannery's team wasted $90 million of taxpayer dollars drilling holes that were 5 kilometers deep and they still couldn't produce geothermal energy at an rate that was economical.

It will not work in Australia - full-stop.
don_dunstan
Yep, no volcano near by, funny that.

Mt Isa mine is 3km deep, the ground is 60C or there about, 5km is clearly not deep enough, there maybe hot spots but unlikely enough.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Prices rising due to exposure of the gas and black coal electricity generation sectors to global markets, which we all know have gone through the roof. Ironically solar, wind and hydro are not.
The price of coal and gas is going through the roof because solar and wind are not fit for purpose and cannot replace fossil fuels as a reliable or scaleable source of energy for a modern society.

Supposedly we have (potentially) 30% of our power needs in Australia being provided by renewables in Australia in 2022 - so why isn't the price of power coming down corresponding with the increased proportion of renewables?

It's because they're rubbish and they don't work is the short answer.
don_dunstan
What a dumb arsed comment.

"The price of coal and gas is going up because solar and wind isn't ood enough", did you read what you said?

If solar and wind were not making it, then the price of coal and gas would be going down as excess supply. However we are in a global shortfall which has got nothing to do with wind and solar, afterall in 14 years we have gone from 5% RE to 33-35% electricty supply and growing.

Energy price was declining until the Russian invasion.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
What a dumb arsed comment.

"The price of coal and gas is going up because solar and wind isn't ood enough", did you read what you said?

If solar and wind were not making it, then the price of coal and gas would be going down as excess supply. However we are in a global shortfall which has got nothing to do with wind and solar, afterall in 14 years we have gone from 5% RE to 33-35% electricty supply and growing.

Energy price was declining until the Russian invasion.
RTT_Rules
No, it wasn't. Both the wholesale and the retail prices in Australia was going up pretty consistently over the last two years and now they're accelerating even more. In the UK they've just put prices up by 50% despite the increased penetration of renewables.

So where are the price reductions we should expect from increasing renewables? They're already subsidised to the hilt - where are the promised dividends?

The obvious answer is they don't work all the time so coal and gas has to shoulder most of the load - and that's why the coal and gas prices are going through the roof. We get less reliable and more expensive power because we have to pay to have gas (in particular) on stand-by for when renewables decide to not show up for work.

All round the public is being screwed by this scam and people like you are cheering it on.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
Australia lacks a few key inputs to Geothermal, ie a volcano would help. What they were trying for in Australia was I suspect likely to work one day, you just need to drill a deep enough hole.
Didn't you read what I posed earlier on? Tim Flannery's team wasted $90 million of taxpayer dollars drilling holes that were 5 kilometers deep and they still couldn't produce geothermal energy at an rate that was economical.

It will not work in Australia - full-stop.
Yep, no volcano near by, funny that.

Mt Isa mine is 3km deep, the ground is 60C or there about, 5km is clearly not deep enough, there maybe hot spots but unlikely enough.
RTT_Rules
Yeah so it'll never work here. And it doesn't really work that well even where you have surface volcanic activity - so just forget about it.
  don_dunstan Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Adelaide proud
So you found ONE example and you think that means agricultural uses are compatible with solar panels?

I noticed how you quietly gave up on bird deaths, probably because you realised I was right and you couldn't win on that one. Even Bob Brown, the former leader of the Australian Greens, has spoken out about the placement of wind turbines and HV lines near colonies of endangered birds.

Renewable energy creates its very own environmental problems - it's not a zero sum thing.

One example in media, I've seen a few in person very similar in three countries now. ie grazing under solar.

Didn't give up on bird deaths, i posted some stuff that contradicted your comments.


There are places wind turbines should not be built, but it doesn't apply to every wind farm, a concept you seem to struggle with when refering to types of birds killed.

RE is not perfect, nothing is, but its becoming more perfect that coal everyday.
RTT_Rules
No, you just skived off without really saying anything - you contradicted nothing. The deaths of rare and endangered raptor birds from ONE wind-farm in California should be ringing alarm bells about how many birds are actually dying but the wind industry actively obfuscates and covers up any proper count of bird deaths because they don't want the public to know what's going on.

The fact that some of the Green movement are sounding the alarm bells over the mincing of rare and endangered birds should be your clue.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
No, you just skived off without really saying anything - you contradicted nothing. The deaths of rare and endangered raptor birds from ONE wind-farm in California should be ringing alarm bells about how many birds are actually dying but the wind industry actively obfuscates and covers up any proper count of bird deaths because they don't want the public to know what's going on.

The fact that some of the Green movement are sounding the alarm bells over the mincing of rare and endangered birds should be your clue.
don_dunstan
Rather than quote one source in a different country, why don't you quote what happens in Australia. I've driven past a number of solar farms in Oz, some only 2 months ago and I didn't notice a pile of dead birds underneth. In all cases in Oz where I've be up and close to a wind farm, the area underneth is a sheep farm.

No one said there are no places you shouldn't build a wind farm. There are clearly some locations that its not a good idea.

Meanwhile how many birds die from coal mining?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Australia lacks a few key inputs to Geothermal, ie a volcano would help. What they were trying for in Australia was I suspect likely to work one day, you just need to drill a deep enough hole.
Didn't you read what I posed earlier on? Tim Flannery's team wasted $90 million of taxpayer dollars drilling holes that were 5 kilometers deep and they still couldn't produce geothermal energy at an rate that was economical.

It will not work in Australia - full-stop.
Yep, no volcano near by, funny that.

Mt Isa mine is 3km deep, the ground is 60C or there about, 5km is clearly not deep enough, there maybe hot spots but unlikely enough.
Yeah so it'll never work here. And it doesn't really work that well even where you have surface volcanic activity - so just forget about it.
don_dunstan
So whats your point.

They tried something, its didn't work, we move on.

How many projects to improve coal and gas performance have failed?

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