Inland railway Melbourne - Brisbane

 
  Xgentric Chief Commissioner

Thanks, Cootanee - I'd forgotten about them. I wonder, if Bromelton goes ahead, if the existing NG line to Beaudesert (and not far from Bromelton) may ever see service again? You never know...

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  ButFli Chief Train Controller

Location: New Farm, Qld
Thanks, Cootanee - I'd forgotten about them. I wonder, if Bromelton goes ahead, if the existing NG line to Beaudesert (and not far from Bromelton) may ever see service again? You never know...
"Xgentric"
The plan was to send a NG line out along to existing SG corridor. No one seemed to know whether this would just be a dual-gauging of the existing line or a new, parallel one.
  Xgentric Chief Commissioner

A correction to my previous post - Werris Creek to Tenterfield should have been "approx 340 km", not 180 km. (The 180 is from Armidale to Tenterfield.) Humble apologies!
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Forget the Werris Creek, Moree, Toowoomba route. Even with a new (and very expensive) SG line across the border, Toowoomba will be a major bottleneck for a long time to come.

Instead, upgrade Werris Creek to Tenterfield (approx 180 km), and build a new line from Tenterfield to Casino (approx 140 km) - the first 20 km for this route from Casino has already been surveyed a good many decades ago. Then use the existing line to Acacia Ridge.

It has been said that Acacia Ridge may reach saturation point within ten years. If this proves to be the case, then restore the Casino to Murwillumbah line (approx 130 km), extend it to Coolangatta (approx 20 km), and establish an air/rail/road freight interchange terminal adjacent to the airport. This will take the pressure off Acacia Ridge, and also open up freight access to the Gold Coast and NSW far north coast areas, already areas of very high growth rate (and with a highway full of large trucks).

This would be a lot less expensive and a lot easier than ARTC’s projected route to Toowoomba, and would alleviate the need for a very difficult line from Toowoomba to Brisbane.

(And a new survey of part of the route might even take it near Butfli’s house?)
"Xgentric"


Tenterfield don't really fit this bill ?
a consortium of 20 councils want the Inland Railway to take a flatter, straighter and faster route
"awsgc24"


North Star to Bromenlton would be the way to go.

The land around Toowoomba Is to difficult and Toowoomba ain't really on the way between Brisbane and Parkes ?
  Xgentric Chief Commissioner

Hi, Nightfire - I was wondering why you were down on Tenterfield. Was it because it’s not in one of the twenty councils?

North Star to Bromelton is a very long way, and would require much more new track than Tenterfield to Casino. And it would still have to cross the Great Dividing Range.

And Toowoomba should be out - as you say, the terrain is too difficult, and it would require a lot of new track and infrastructure, and also would interfere with a lot of QR traffic as well.
  michinyon Chief Commissioner

Councils that have nothing to lose from the higher construction costs and everything to gain from having a railway through their part of the world.


Councils probably get more employment and business in their area from truck stops   than from a railway running through.

And better access to all their local industries ( if any )  from the road network than from a railway running through, too.
  ButFli Chief Train Controller

Location: New Farm, Qld
Councils that have nothing to lose from the higher construction costs and everything to gain from having a railway through their part of the world.


Councils probably get more employment and business in their area from truck stops   than from a railway running through.

And better access to all their local industries ( if any )  from the road network than from a railway running through, too.
"michinyon"
Yes, but simply building a railway through does not instantly remove the roads and road traffic. The benefits of the railway will add to the benefits from the road, not replace them.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Hi, Nightfire - I was wondering why you were down on Tenterfield. Was it because it’s not in one of the twenty councils?

North Star to Bromelton is a very long way, and would require much more new track than Tenterfield to Casino. And it would still have to cross the Great Dividing Range.

And Toowoomba should be out - as you say, the terrain is too difficult, and it would require a lot of new track and infrastructure, and also would interfere with a lot of QR traffic as well.
"Xgentric"


Reading some of the extensive studies published In Railway Digest
"Parkes to Cairns Railway spine"
The rail route line up to Tenterfield was not perfered because of the grades, curves and general elevation the line encounters.

A railway route further West on flatter ground was found to be cheaper to build/upgrade and delivered faster transit times with less fuel used.
  dw54 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Devonport, Tas
Unfortunately, there is no evidence to show that simply building a railway line
automatically picks up market share from road.
Melb - Sydney, Sydney - Brisbane and Melb - Adelaide are all perfectly good railway lines, but all have been losing market share from road since the late 1970s.
What determines the competetivness of rail vs road is cost, in $ per tonne.
The only 2 railway lines that have picked up market share from road are
Adelaide - Perth and Adelaide - Darwin, both lines with very few grades.
"MD"


Actually, not so much grades, as both are routes with few significant side routes and intermediate markets (Alice and Kal being the exceptions). Road haulage does best with modest loads point-point. If the bulk of the traffic is along a LONG corridor, rail is in there with a strong selling point.

David
  SteelPan Locomotive Fireman

Sorry if previously asked, but does any one know if ARTC started any sort of upgrade program on this "inland" line via Narrabri up to Moree - I've looked on ARTC's web site and Not found anything - can any one provide any insight and/or other possible information sources. Thank you.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Sorry if previously asked, but does any one know if ARTC started any sort of upgrade program on this "inland" line via Narrabri up to Moree - I've looked on ARTC's web site and Not found anything - can any one provide any insight and/or other possible information sources. Thank you.
"SteelPan"


I think you need to go back and read the whole thread.

There has been no commitment by anyone - The Federal Government, ARTC or the Mad Hatter Compton to proceed with construction of any part of any proposed Inland Route.

Plenty of feasability studies, but no commitment.

It could be argued that some of the ARTC work on the North South corridor between Melbourne and Cootmanudra and the upgrade of the Cootamundra to Parkes link are laying the groundwork for an Inland Route, but you'd be unlikely to get anyone to admit to that in public.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
According to the Railway Digest (October 2009) it is proposed to build a bypass around Werris Creek reusing the closed Binnaway route from WC to the Gap.

This link would enable Inland Railway trains to go from the Binnaway Line to the North West Line without shunting.

A later enhancement to the IR would bypass WC from about Dubbo to Narrabri, saving about 100km, but it is good to have an interim link that costs little.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
According to the Railway Digest (October 2009) it is proposed to build a bypass around Werris Creek reusing the closed Binnaway route from WC to the Gap.

This link would enable Inland Railway trains to go from the Binnaway Line to the North West Line without shunting.
"awsgc24"


A triangles ?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
According to the Railway Digest (October 2009) it is proposed to build a bypass around Werris Creek reusing the closed Binnaway route from WC to the Gap.

This link would enable Inland Railway trains to go from the Binnaway Line to the North West Line without shunting.

A later enhancement to the IR would bypass WC from about Dubbo to Narrabri, saving about 100km, but it is good to have an interim link that costs little.
"awsgc24"


The by pass is to provide extra capacity for coal trains serving the Gunnedah Basin passing through the Werris Creek area.

No decision or commitment has been made that would see Inland Railway services travelling via Werris Creek - if it ever happens.

Not forgetting of course the added bonus of reversing trains at Binnaway along the way.
  LesS Train Controller

Location: Behind the Camera
There is considerable track maintenance/upgrading work going on between Narrabri & Moree at the moment. The work appears to have NOTHING AT ALL to do with the inland rail proposal. It is all to do with existing facilities and services.

I was in the area 2 weeks ago. There are daily line closures in the sections between Narrabri & Moree and these look like continuing through October. There are plenty of occupancy notices in the ARTC TAA's. The closures seem to be timed to allow passage of NP44 Explorer of a morning and to allow passage of the down cotton train late morning when it runs. Notwithstanding this NP44 was being delayed every morning and was generally 30 minutes or more late departing Narrabri.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
There is considerable track maintenance/upgrading work going on between Narrabri & Moree at the moment. The work appears to have NOTHING AT ALL to do with the inland rail proposal. It is all to do with existing facilities and services.

I was in the area 2 weeks ago. There are daily line closures in the sections between Narrabri & Moree and these look like continuing through October. There are plenty of occupancy notices in the ARTC TAA's. The closures seem to be timed to allow passage of NP44 Explorer of a morning and to allow passage of the down cotton train late morning when it runs. Notwithstanding this NP44 was being delayed every morning and was generally 30 minutes or more late departing Narrabri.
"LesS"


Yep - its very simply - ARTC is doing nothing connected to the Inland Railway except a federally funded study.

Boring but that's it  Exclamation
  42208 Locomotive Driver

Location: On the porch...opposite staunchion 96.825....watching the coalies roll by.

..... the Mad Hatter Compton .......
"bingley hall"

Love your work. I thought I was the only person who thought he was crazy. I don't know what he's on but he should pass it around.

But seriously what is the point of the new railway, has anyone asked themselves this. As already stated on this thread the key to market share is really tonnage not transit time (the primary problem with Syd - Melb is the curfews in and out of Sydney leaving rail unable to tap into the lucrative overnight l.c.l. market., the time enhancements are completely useless without access to Sydney at the right times).

What is the point of spending billions of dollars for a line that has the exact same capabilities as the present route. The inland route is still going to have the same ruling grades as the current line (due to both corridors using the same crossing over the great divide in Victoria), the argument of using a lesser graded line in NSW is therefore superfluous. The same can be said for crossing the great divide in QLD. The line is going to be inferior to the Broadmedow to Brisbane alignment (from a gradient point of view.....the more that can be hauled the greater your profits - cost recovery, it is as simple as that.

I hope sanity prevails. By investing the money on reducing the grades on the grades on the existing Melb - Syd - Bris line to 1/66 and including some deviations to improve the transit time we could have one superior route instead of two inferior routes.
  SteelPan Locomotive Fireman

Thanks for the update.
I have to say - NO WAY - would I call Compton mad.  Anyone who gets people thinking and talking about rail and its future deserves a pat on the back.
Also, check out suratbasinrail.com.au - the Inland Rail IS very close to being underway!  SBR alone will open up BILLION$ of dollars of exports for Australia - not bad for a mad hatter!!!
  62440 Chief Commissioner

At the moment, the Syd Bris line carries a minuscule proportion of Syd Bris and Melb Bris freight. Expected growth in freight overall offers a potential for a multi growth in the rail share. The target should be in the order of 30% with tonnage growing with the overall freight task. There is no way the existing line with the Sydney constraint can handle the growth. Best to apply any capacity for growth to Syd-Bris and get the Melb out of metro Sydney. That is the base philosophy.
Other issues include the ability of the inland route to use double stack and for train lengths to be far greater than on the existing route.
Note that over 70% of the inland route exists, much of it duplicated and it is concrete sleeperd to Parkes.
I have studied the figures a few years ago and if an achievable market share is realised, even the inland route will head towards capacity.
Don't forget the benefits to Per Bris and Adel Bris traffic which would also avoid the long deviation via Sydney.
WW
  colinw_mk2 Station Master, Kippa-Ring

Thanks for the update.
I have to say - NO WAY - would I call Compton mad.  Anyone who gets people thinking and talking about rail and its future deserves a pat on the back.
Also, check out suratbasinrail.com.au - the Inland Rail IS very close to being underway!  SBR alone will open up BILLION$ of dollars of exports for Australia - not bad for a mad hatter!!!
"SteelPan"

There is a very good reason why the Surat Basin Rail is going ahead first, and that is because it is the one part of Compton's pipe dream that makes any sense at all.

There have been calls for a line joining Wandoan and Moura to open up coal in that area for decades.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
At the moment, the Syd Bris line carries a minuscule proportion of Syd Bris and Melb Bris freight. Expected growth in freight overall offers a potential for a multi growth in the rail share. The target should be in the order of 30% with tonnage growing with the overall freight task. There is no way the existing line with the Sydney constraint can handle the growth. Best to apply any capacity for growth to Syd-Bris and get the Melb out of metro Sydney. That is the base philosophy.
Other issues include the ability of the inland route to use double stack and for train lengths to be far greater than on the existing route.
Note that over 70% of the inland route exists, much of it duplicated and it is concrete sleeperd to Parkes.
I have studied the figures a few years ago and if an achievable market share is realised, even the inland route will head towards capacity.
Don't forget the benefits to Per Bris and Adel Bris traffic which would also avoid the long deviation via Sydney.
WW
"62440"


I think Port of Brisbane has a lot to gain from the Inland railway linking Into NSW's North West Region, given that I think Queensland Transport should pull their finger out and start their part of the link to the NSW border Instead of expecting the Commonwealth Government or private moneys to fund the lot.

When you think about It Queensland rail links from Brisbane to the South West of the state are In very lame condition (pioneer alinements)
Rail freight services In the region are now starting to die (can't compete with 100 km/h standard Highways)
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Thanks for the update.
I have to say - NO WAY - would I call Compton mad.  Anyone who gets people thinking and talking about rail and its future deserves a pat on the back.
Also, check out suratbasinrail.com.au - the Inland Rail IS very close to being underway!  SBR alone will open up BILLION$ of dollars of exports for Australia - not bad for a mad hatter!!!
"SteelPan"


Wow that close Shocked

From the latest (August 2008) Surat Basin Rail Project Update

http://suratbasinrail.com.au/files/SBR-newsletter2-0808.pdf

“The line will accommodate freight as well as coal, and we’re investigating a possible dual gauge to accommodate interstate trains,” he said.


Big of them.

No news or updates on the web site since August 2008 and this year's EIS statement barely mentions the Inland Route and does so only in passing.

There is no doubting that Everald is much wealthier than I'll ever be, is well connected, knows how to make a lot of noise and get his foot in the door.

How many times has he issued press statements claiming that construction on the Inland Route will start next year and yet despite nothing happening every time he does so the press are happy to run with the story?  

People such as the proponents of the Surat Basin project are happy to ride on the back of such attributes.

However what Everald knows and understands about the rail industry could be written on the back of a postage stamp. Evil or Very Mad
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Ever'ard is most likely a co conspirator of the mass media , to be wheeled out when things are dull and boring to hopefully captivate the minds of those with er idle hands ...

He has no real money and doesn't seem to be able excite those that do .
I think he once wanted to appeal as a visionary but no ones really interested .

What he should have done was talk to the rail operators because they are well aware of the best ways they can get ahead in the rail freight world .

Too much could/would/should with this hog wash IR scam .
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Having closely followed this saga for about a decade I wouldn't get excited. Wonder how that tree is growing  Rolling Eyes

Now that the worst of the GFC has been ducked there won't be 'truck' loads of cash on offer - well not for rail  Wink
  Draffa Chief Commissioner

I can't really see the point of the Inland Railway.  It'll cost billions of dollars to build, yet won't deliver faster transit times.  Additionally, I doubt there is the traffic to justify it.  After all, how many trains enter/depart Acacia Ridge each week?  And it's especially not justified when various governments continue to do all they can to subsidise road-based transport, via the continued upgrading of highways to cater for ever more, ever-larger trucks (if nothing else, favouring roads over rail goes agianst Greenhouse policy).

For sure, something needs to be done about the Acacia Ridge/Sydney/Melbourne bottlenecks, but building a whole 'new' railway isn't it, imo.  Better to strategically straighten the existing coastal line (just look at all the twisty bits south of the QLD border) and electrify it (electric locomotives can typicaly handle higher grades than diesels - although the gap has closed with the introduction of AC Diesels - so a straighter line with bigger grades might not be the issue that planners might think it is.  Additionally, electrifying carries with it a potential Greenhouse Gas abatement, as you're replacing something like 4 BTU's of Diesel with 1 BTU of electricity - and electricity is an equal-opportunity energy carrier:  it doesn't care what the electrons were generated from).

Honestly, we don't seem to have the money to fund the desperately-needed buildout of the suburban passenger networks in Sydney and Brisbane (but we do seem to have the money to build AirportLink...) , so we certainly dont have the money to build the pie-in-the-sky Inland Railway.

On a side note, someone needs to make a Google Earth .kmz of all these proposed IR routes. Wink

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