NE SG line, post gauge conversion

 
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Victoria's beurocratic red tape will prevent any passenger trains from running any faster than 130 km/h on the ARTC network within Victoria, under the current signalling system.

NSW have their own rules, that permits upto 160 km/h on ARTC tracks.

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  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Just a brief visit to report some work
Nice work Woodford, great info

Interesting that it is Victrack, I wonder if this work has been planned for a while or has come about after the recent politicking around the NE line.

No matter which it is hopefully good news for travellers on the line

BG
BrentonGolding
How will it make any difference to rail travellers?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Victoria's beurocratic red tape will prevent any passenger trains from running any faster than 130 km/h on the ARTC network within Victoria, under the current signalling system.

NSW have their own rules, that permits upto 160 km/h on ARTC tracks.
Nightfire
The maximum speed of the Albury line is limited by the curves and grades, there's only a relatively small distance capable of a sustained top sped of 160kph. Another problem is the spacing of stations is to close allow an VLine stopping all stations Albury service to run at 160kph for any length of time.

For a set up like the VLocity's 160kph running is only effective if it can run at that speed for a decent distance as it takes around 7 kilometres to reach 160kph even on level track and it cannot maintain 160kph on any kind of decent grade.

woodford
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Also the Issue of the required TPWS

V/Line ain't going to pay for that to be fitted to all mainline locomotives that visit Victoria.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

The maximum speed of the Albury line is limited by the curves and grades, there's only a relatively small distance capable of a sustained top sped of 160kph. Another problem is the spacing of stations is to close allow an VLine stopping all stations Albury service to run at 160kph for any length of time.

For a set up like the VLocity's 160kph running is only effective if it can run at that speed for a decent distance as it takes around 7 kilometres to reach 160kph even on level track and it cannot maintain 160kph on any kind of decent grade.

woodford
woodford
Most of the north east line is rated to speeds of what is defined as 133+.    The curves are large enough to allow 160km/h running for most of it, with some curves limiting speeds to things like 145.  The grades are pretty gentle on the NE, so it would still perform fairly well.  
In fact, north of seymour, there is only one curve which lowers the speed below 115km/h, and that is only lowered the speed to 105km/h.  

There is only 7 stations between albury and seymour.   We should be aiming for 160km/h travel, Velocitys are very fast off the mark as well.  7km to go from zero to 160km/h is very good.   Would be on par with the prospector and Diesel Tilt Train.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
The maximum speed of the Albury line is limited by the curves and grades, there's only a relatively small distance capable of a sustained top sped of 160kph. Another problem is the spacing of stations is to close allow an VLine stopping all stations Albury service to run at 160kph for any length of time.

For a set up like the VLocity's 160kph running is only effective if it can run at that speed for a decent distance as it takes around 7 kilometres to reach 160kph even on level track and it cannot maintain 160kph on any kind of decent grade.

woodford
Most of the north east line is rated to speeds of what is defined as 133+.    The curves are large enough to allow 160km/h running for most of it, with some curves limiting speeds to things like 145.  The grades are pretty gentle on the NE, so it would still perform fairly well.  
In fact, north of seymour, there is only one curve which lowers the speed below 115km/h, and that is only lowered the speed to 105km/h.  

There is only 7 stations between albury and seymour.   We should be aiming for 160km/h travel, Velocitys are very fast off the mark as well.  7km to go from zero to 160km/h is very good.   Would be on par with the prospector and Diesel Tilt Train.
tazzer96

Interesting analysis for pax.  Im also thinking freight.  Freight speeds in Aus seem to max out at 115kph.  Is there any place in the world that does faster freight?
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
Yep.

In the minds of some Transport Ministers
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
No matter which it is hopefully good news for travellers on the line

BG
How will it make any difference to rail travellers?
DalyWaters
If it allows for faster line speeds due to removal of Speed Restrictions and/or TSRs. When they did the RFR work in the mid 2000s they did similar work to this on the Bendigo, Ballarat etc lines and only then could they increase the line speed (with a lot of other work to straighten out curves etc.) With any luck this work is a precursor to the same thing happening on the NE

BG
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Most of the north east line is rated to speeds of what is defined as 133+.    The curves are large enough to allow 160km/h running for most of it, with some curves limiting speeds to things like 145.  The grades are pretty gentle on the NE, so it would still perform fairly well.  
In fact, north of seymour, there is only one curve which lowers the speed below 115km/h, and that is only lowered the speed to 105km/h.  

There is only 7 stations between albury and seymour.   We should be aiming for 160km/h travel, Velocitys are very fast off the mark as well.  7km to go from zero to 160km/h is very good.   Would be on par with the prospector and Diesel Tilt Train.
tazzer96
As an interim measure any ideas on what sort of time saving running Vlocity (new modified version presuming it has similar / same performance) at 130km/h max would have over the exisiting loco hauled service? The Vlo has better acceleration obviously but would it make much of a difference?

A big ask I know but @woodford should be able to work it out, I know I can't!

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Victoria's beurocratic red tape will prevent any passenger trains from running any faster than 130 km/h on the ARTC network within Victoria, under the current signalling system.

NSW have their own rules, that permits upto 160 km/h on ARTC tracks.
The maximum speed of the Albury line is limited by the curves and grades, there's only a relatively small distance capable of a sustained top sped of 160kph. Another problem is the spacing of stations is to close allow an VLine stopping all stations Albury service to run at 160kph for any length of time.

For a set up like the VLocity's 160kph running is only effective if it can run at that speed for a decent distance as it takes around 7 kilometres to reach 160kph even on level track and it cannot maintain 160kph on any kind of decent grade.

woodford
woodford

There are literally miles of straight track beyond Mangalore to at least Barnawartha.

It may take a VLocity 7km to reach 160kph from a standing start, but not if it's already travelling at 120 to 130kph out of a curve. That only takes around a km or so to reach 160kph.

As for grades north of Mangalore...I can think of one... and that doesn't even approach Ingliston Bank where Vlocity's have to brake on the down (uphill) to negotiate the 115kph curves.

Mike.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Most of the north east line is rated to speeds of what is defined as 133+.    The curves are large enough to allow 160km/h running for most of it, with some curves limiting speeds to things like 145.  The grades are pretty gentle on the NE, so it would still perform fairly well.  
In fact, north of seymour, there is only one curve which lowers the speed below 115km/h, and that is only lowered the speed to 105km/h.  

There is only 7 stations between albury and seymour.   We should be aiming for 160km/h travel, Velocitys are very fast off the mark as well.  7km to go from zero to 160km/h is very good.   Would be on par with the prospector and Diesel Tilt Train.
As an interim measure any ideas on what sort of time saving running Vlocity (new modified version presuming it has similar / same performance) at 130km/h max would have over the exisiting loco hauled service? The Vlo has better acceleration obviously but would it make much of a difference?

A big ask I know but @woodford should be able to work it out, I know I can't!

BG
BrentonGolding
I did a mathematical simulation on this, this simulation actual has to be driven like a real train. The max cruising speed was 130kph time saved to Albury from Seymour (did not simulate south of Seymour as speed is limited by the line) is 25 minutes.  I did try 160kph cruise, this ONLY saved another 4 or 5 minutes and had a vastly greater fuel consumption. The problem is is the only place 160kph can be reached for any length of time is between Avenal and Euroa and this stretch has two speed limited curves.

The VLocity's simply DO NOT have enough availible tractive effort above 130kph to enable them to speed up quickly, particularly on even moderate grades. If you check out almost all high speed services are electrified, this is no accident, the electrifictation allows the VERY high powers that are required to accelarate a train quickly above 130kph.

Note: Tractive effort of a 6 car VLocity at 160kph is only around 12000lbs, total train resistance is around 6500 pounds. This leaves only 5,500 pounds for accelartion and hill climbing. The train weight is 360 tons or so with a TE of 2.5 tons (5,500lbs)
accelaration rate is only 0.007 of a g, and the set cannot maintain 160kph even on a 1 in 120 grade.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Note: the simulation mentioned above assumes 2 minute stops at Benalla, Wang etc and 1 minute else where.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
An amazing post @woodford helping me understand why electrification is so important especially for lines like Ballarat.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
I did a mathematical simulation on this, this simulation actual has to be driven like a real train. The max cruising speed was 130kph time saved to Albury from Seymour (did not simulate south of Seymour as speed is limited by the line) is 25 minutes.  I did try 160kph cruise, this ONLY saved another 4 or 5 minutes and had a vastly greater fuel consumption. The problem is is the only place 160kph can be reached for any length of time is between Avenal and Euroa and this stretch has two speed limited curves.

The VLocity's simply DO NOT have enough availible tractive effort above 130kph to enable them to speed up quickly, particularly on even moderate grades. If you check out almost all high speed services are electrified, this is no accident, the electrifictation allows the VERY high powers that are required to accelarate a train quickly above 130kph.

Note: Tractive effort of a 6 car VLocity at 160kph is only around 12000lbs, total train resistance is around 6500 pounds. This leaves only 5,500 pounds for accelartion and hill climbing. The train weight is 360 tons or so with a TE of 2.5 tons (5,500lbs)
accelaration rate is only 0.007 of a g, and the set cannot maintain 160kph even on a 1 in 120 grade.

woodford
woodford

Thanks woodford.  Great analysis.

You're assuming though the the rolling stock to be used would be current Vlos.  What about running the sim with the XPT, the WA Prospector as the rolling stock?  Ignore any other compatibility issues.  What happens then?  

I ask as the trains that are going to run on that route are not going to be the current VLos.  They will be something different.  If they looked at making them more highly powered for longer distance, (which may be warranted as what they will be tasked to do is somewhat different compared to the service pattern that the current VLos run), then 16t0kph might be more achievable.

Also, this analysis is for a 6 car VLo.  What if it was just a 3 car VLo?  Or a 4 car VLo?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I did a mathematical simulation on this, this simulation actual has to be driven like a real train. The max cruising speed was 130kph time saved to Albury from Seymour (did not simulate south of Seymour as speed is limited by the line) is 25 minutes.  I did try 160kph cruise, this ONLY saved another 4 or 5 minutes and had a vastly greater fuel consumption. The problem is is the only place 160kph can be reached for any length of time is between Avenal and Euroa and this stretch has two speed limited curves.

The VLocity's simply DO NOT have enough availible tractive effort above 130kph to enable them to speed up quickly, particularly on even moderate grades. If you check out almost all high speed services are electrified, this is no accident, the electrifictation allows the VERY high powers that are required to accelarate a train quickly above 130kph.

Note: Tractive effort of a 6 car VLocity at 160kph is only around 12000lbs, total train resistance is around 6500 pounds. This leaves only 5,500 pounds for accelartion and hill climbing. The train weight is 360 tons or so with a TE of 2.5 tons (5,500lbs)
accelaration rate is only 0.007 of a g, and the set cannot maintain 160kph even on a 1 in 120 grade.

woodford

Thanks woodford.  Great analysis.

You're assuming though the the rolling stock to be used would be current Vlos.  What about running the sim with the XPT, the WA Prospector as the rolling stock?  Ignore any other compatibility issues.  What happens then?  

I ask as the trains that are going to run on that route are not going to be the current VLos.  They will be something different.  If they looked at making them more highly powered for longer distance, (which may be warranted as what they will be tasked to do is somewhat different compared to the service pattern that the current VLos run), then 16t0kph might be more achievable.

Also, this analysis is for a 6 car VLo.  What if it was just a 3 car VLo?  Or a 4 car VLo?
james.au
I have run the whole simulation using VLocity's and a 5 car plus power van N set. I have only run a the XPT on one section, but for its 6 car set its power to weight ratio is very similiar to a 6 car VLocity. Unfortunately there is little technical info on the Prospectors rolling stock (Note 1) so a simulation for it is not possible.

Note 1: Each car has two Cummins N14E-R3 each of 386 kW (15 litre 6 cylinder engine), each driving a Voith T212bre (2 speed transmission), this SHOULD give its top speed of around 130kph. The weight of each car is SAID to be 67 tons. In theory it should accelarate and climb hills somewhat better than the VLocity.

Basicly the performance of a 6 car XPT set is similliar to a VLocity, note though its performance will vary for different consists.

For VLocity's as each car is powered  the performance does not vary much for different number of cars. Its overall drag coefficient improves slightly on longer consists, this only has a significant effect above 160kph.

woodford
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
I did a mathematical simulation on this, this simulation actual has to be driven like a real train. The max cruising speed was 130kph time saved to Albury from Seymour (did not simulate south of Seymour as speed is limited by the line) is 25 minutes.  I did try 160kph cruise, this ONLY saved another 4 or 5 minutes and had a vastly greater fuel consumption. The problem is is the only place 160kph can be reached for any length of time is between Avenal and Euroa and this stretch has two speed limited curves.

The VLocity's simply DO NOT have enough availible tractive effort above 130kph to enable them to speed up quickly, particularly on even moderate grades. If you check out almost all high speed services are electrified, this is no accident, the electrifictation allows the VERY high powers that are required to accelarate a train quickly above 130kph.

Note: Tractive effort of a 6 car VLocity at 160kph is only around 12000lbs, total train resistance is around 6500 pounds. This leaves only 5,500 pounds for accelartion and hill climbing. The train weight is 360 tons or so with a TE of 2.5 tons (5,500lbs)
accelaration rate is only 0.007 of a g, and the set cannot maintain 160kph even on a 1 in 120 grade.

woodford

Thanks woodford.  Great analysis.

You're assuming though the the rolling stock to be used would be current Vlos.  What about running the sim with the XPT, the WA Prospector as the rolling stock?  Ignore any other compatibility issues.  What happens then?  

I ask as the trains that are going to run on that route are not going to be the current VLos.  They will be something different.  If they looked at making them more highly powered for longer distance, (which may be warranted as what they will be tasked to do is somewhat different compared to the service pattern that the current VLos run), then 16t0kph might be more achievable.

Also, this analysis is for a 6 car VLo.  What if it was just a 3 car VLo?  Or a 4 car VLo?
I have run the whole simulation using VLocity's and a 5 car plus power van N set. I have only run a the XPT on one section, but for its 6 car set its power to weight ratio is very similiar to a 6 car VLocity. Unfortunately there is little technical info on the Prospectors rolling stock (Note 1) so a simulation for it is not possible.

Note 1: Each car has two Cummins N14E-R3 each of 386 kW (15 litre 6 cylinder engine), each driving a Voith T212bre (2 speed transmission), this SHOULD give its top speed of around 130kph. The weight of each car is SAID to be 67 tons. In theory it should accelarate and climb hills somewhat better than the VLocity.

Basicly the performance of a 6 car XPT set is similliar to a VLocity, note though its performance will vary for different consists.

For VLocity's as each car is powered  the performance does not vary much for different number of cars. Its overall drag coefficient improves slightly on longer consists, this only has a significant effect above 160kph.

woodford
woodford
It would be good to see what the XPT was like for the whole line (i.e. Albury to SCS) though don't know what exactly is involved in making that calc, so will leave it to you of course to decide if you want to do it!.

Re prospector, I've seen it here that they run it at 160kmh (RTT_Rules I think said that).  I think its average speed is around 100km based on the distance and timetables, so it would have to be running above 100 for a substantial part of the journey.

What technical information do you need for the sim?
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Victoria's beurocratic red tape will prevent any passenger trains from running any faster than 130 km/h on the ARTC network within Victoria, under the current signalling system.

NSW have their own rules, that permits upto 160 km/h on ARTC tracks.
The maximum speed of the Albury line is limited by the curves and grades, there's only a relatively small distance capable of a sustained top sped of 160kph. Another problem is the spacing of stations is to close allow an VLine stopping all stations Albury service to run at 160kph for any length of time.

For a set up like the VLocity's 160kph running is only effective if it can run at that speed for a decent distance as it takes around 7 kilometres to reach 160kph even on level track and it cannot maintain 160kph on any kind of decent grade.

woodford

There are literally miles of straight track beyond Mangalore to at least Barnawartha.

It may take a VLocity 7km to reach 160kph from a standing start, but not if it's already travelling at 120 to 130kph out of a curve. That only takes around a km or so to reach 160kph.

As for grades north of Mangalore...I can think of one... and that doesn't even approach Ingliston Bank where Vlocity's have to brake on the down (uphill) to negotiate the 115kph curves.

Mike.
The Vinelander
A 'mere' 1 in 75 for a couple of miles each side of Glenrowan is the steepest grade of any length.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I did a mathematical simulation on this, this simulation actual has to be driven like a real train. The max cruising speed was 130kph time saved to Albury from Seymour (did not simulate south of Seymour as speed is limited by the line) is 25 minutes.  I did try 160kph cruise, this ONLY saved another 4 or 5 minutes and had a vastly greater fuel consumption. The problem is is the only place 160kph can be reached for any length of time is between Avenal and Euroa and this stretch has two speed limited curves.

The VLocity's simply DO NOT have enough availible tractive effort above 130kph to enable them to speed up quickly, particularly on even moderate grades. If you check out almost all high speed services are electrified, this is no accident, the electrifictation allows the VERY high powers that are required to accelarate a train quickly above 130kph.

Note: Tractive effort of a 6 car VLocity at 160kph is only around 12000lbs, total train resistance is around 6500 pounds. This leaves only 5,500 pounds for accelartion and hill climbing. The train weight is 360 tons or so with a TE of 2.5 tons (5,500lbs)
accelaration rate is only 0.007 of a g, and the set cannot maintain 160kph even on a 1 in 120 grade.

woodford

Thanks woodford.  Great analysis.

You're assuming though the the rolling stock to be used would be current Vlos.  What about running the sim with the XPT, the WA Prospector as the rolling stock?  Ignore any other compatibility issues.  What happens then?  

I ask as the trains that are going to run on that route are not going to be the current VLos.  They will be something different.  If they looked at making them more highly powered for longer distance, (which may be warranted as what they will be tasked to do is somewhat different compared to the service pattern that the current VLos run), then 16t0kph might be more achievable.

Also, this analysis is for a 6 car VLo.  What if it was just a 3 car VLo?  Or a 4 car VLo?
I have run the whole simulation using VLocity's and a 5 car plus power van N set. I have only run a the XPT on one section, but for its 6 car set its power to weight ratio is very similiar to a 6 car VLocity. Unfortunately there is little technical info on the Prospectors rolling stock (Note 1) so a simulation for it is not possible.

Note 1: Each car has two Cummins N14E-R3 each of 386 kW (15 litre 6 cylinder engine), each driving a Voith T212bre (2 speed transmission), this SHOULD give its top speed of around 130kph. The weight of each car is SAID to be 67 tons. In theory it should accelarate and climb hills somewhat better than the VLocity.

Basicly the performance of a 6 car XPT set is similliar to a VLocity, note though its performance will vary for different consists.

For VLocity's as each car is powered  the performance does not vary much for different number of cars. Its overall drag coefficient improves slightly on longer consists, this only has a significant effect above 160kph.

woodford
It would be good to see what the XPT was like for the whole line (i.e. Albury to SCS) though don't know what exactly is involved in making that calc, so will leave it to you of course to decide if you want to do it!.

Re prospector, I've seen it here that they run it at 160kmh (RTT_Rules I think said that).  I think its average speed is around 100km based on the distance and timetables, so it would have to be running above 100 for a substantial part of the journey.

What technical information do you need for the sim?
james.au
I have not simulated the line south of Seymour as the speed is entirely dictated by the lines grades and curves and any times would be almost the same as is current. From my current playing around with the simulation I believe a 6 car XPT set would be somewhat quicker than a VLocity due to a more usefull way of power transfer from the prime mover to the wheels as the power to weight ratio is similiar.
A small issue with the DMU's is in top gear (in the VLocity its gears 2 and 3) the engine is directly connected to the wheels, there fore the power availible is determined by the engine revs so maximum power is only availible at a particular speed, diesel electrics do NOT work that way, maximum power is always availible at the wheels when one is in notch 8 (above a minimum speed) By the time a driver gets to notch 8 it is almost certain the train will be going faster than this minimum speed. This makes the DMU slightly slower for the same power to weight ratio.

The data required for the sim is some kind of indication of engine revs to the speed of the vehicle, such as the overall gearbox and final drive ratio (see previous paragraph), this data is readily availible for both the VLocity and the Sprinters. One way of getting an idea of this would be a sound recording of the gear change and exactly what speed it occured at. In the VLocity, 1st to 2nd is at aprox 85kph, 2nd to 3rd is at 130kph. For the sprinter 1st to 2nd is at 80 to 85kph. (this is at full throttle).

woodford
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Yet the xplorer is faster to Broadmeadow then the XPT is woodford so go and do your sums again please. The vlocity has an extra 200kw over the xplorer and also it doesn't have 2 heavy power cars at either end to pull around like the xpt has. With 6 cars the vlocity has over 3000kw of power and also would be significantly lighter then an equivalent XPT.

Yes, it would be even better if it had electric propulsion but DMU's don't struggle up hills like old locomotives do because of distributed traction. Even if it can't maintain 160km/h it should surely still not struggle anywhere near as bad as a loco hauled service.
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

Few points as one who drives Velocity trains as well as N class to Albury (on different days!)

1. V'L should have no trouble achieving well over 130km/h between each stop except between Wodonga and Albury. I would expect to see 160km/h in each section for a time at least, with sustained running between Avenel/Euroa; Violet Town/Benalla; Benalla/Wang (Glenrowan is really only a bump, even to an N class; the curve at the top would limit VL speed more than the hill); Wang/Springhurst; Chiltern/Wodonga. Ditto on up. Craigieburn - Wallan at 160 is another possibility, maybe Big Hill - Dysart as well.

2. A few curves to consider; these could be eased to allow for higher speed easily enough. Some of those are old station deviations (e.g. Creighton) which probably should be straightened anyway.

3. The V'L first gear change happens consistently at 90km/h. The second gear change usually from 130km/h; if that second gear change is delayed (sometimes even up to 140km/h), the train seems quite gutless, like it has run out of breath. Unusual for the first gear change at any speed other than 90, at least when powering hard.

4. The loco hauled trains now are standardised as N class; PCJ; 4-car N set. They could be improved by returning the second HEP unit to the PCJ, then they don't need an N class. An A would then do a better job (although needs to run as 2-man train); but then a G/BL/81 would be even better, with more HP, and better ride quality than the wretched N! As it stands, any timing/speed simulations should reflect that alteration.

5. I doubt a V'Locity would manage to complete one return trip to Albury before falling apart. The track is easily the worst we drive on, terrible shocks, lateral sways, mudholes, the list is endless. ARTC recently removed many TSR's, but don't seem to have done much work apart from pulling the signs down. The approach to Benalla from Melbourne is dreadful, even with the TSR still there. I don't think VLP would risk spending good money on any new SG train now until the track gets serious repairs.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Yet the xplorer is faster to Broadmeadow then the XPT is woodford so go and do your sums again please. The vlocity has an extra 200kw over the xplorer and also it doesn't have 2 heavy power cars at either end to pull around like the xpt has. With 6 cars the vlocity has over 3000kw of power and also would be significantly lighter then an equivalent XPT.

Yes, it would be even better if it had electric propulsion but DMU's don't struggle up hills like old locomotives do because of distributed traction. Even if it can't maintain 160km/h it should surely still not struggle anywhere near as bad as a loco hauled service.
"simstrain"


The mathematical formula's used has LONG been in use to simulate rail vehicles and has been updated constantly to account for newer technologies. The formula's are emperical ie derived from actual data from dynocar tests. Also I did a number of caiibration  runs of using VLine rolling stock and found the match to be quite good, so I have a good deal of confidence in the data the simulation supplies.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Few points as one who drives Velocity trains as well as N class to Albury (on different days!)

1. V'L should have no trouble achieving well over 130km/h between each stop except between Wodonga and Albury. I would expect to see 160km/h in each section for a time at least, with sustained running between Avenel/Euroa; Violet Town/Benalla; Benalla/Wang (Glenrowan is really only a bump, even to an N class; the curve at the top would limit VL speed more than the hill); Wang/Springhurst; Chiltern/Wodonga. Ditto on up. Craigieburn - Wallan at 160 is another possibility, maybe Big Hill - Dysart as well.

2. A few curves to consider; these could be eased to allow for higher speed easily enough. Some of those are old station deviations (e.g. Creighton) which probably should be straightened anyway.

3. The V'L first gear change happens consistently at 90km/h. The second gear change usually from 130km/h; if that second gear change is delayed (sometimes even up to 140km/h), the train seems quite gutless, like it has run out of breath. Unusual for the first gear change at any speed other than 90, at least when powering hard.

4. The loco hauled trains now are standardised as N class; PCJ; 4-car N set. They could be improved by returning the second HEP unit to the PCJ, then they don't need an N class. An A would then do a better job (although needs to run as 2-man train); but then a G/BL/81 would be even better, with more HP, and better ride quality than the wretched N! As it stands, any timing/speed simulations should reflect that alteration.

5. I doubt a V'Locity would manage to complete one return trip to Albury before falling apart. The track is easily the worst we drive on, terrible shocks, lateral sways, mudholes, the list is endless. ARTC recently removed many TSR's, but don't seem to have done much work apart from pulling the signs down. The approach to Benalla from Melbourne is dreadful, even with the TSR still there. I don't think VLP would risk spending good money on any new SG train now until the track gets serious repairs.
"hbedriver"


Many many thanks for the information, its REAL nice to hear from some one "at the coal face".

woodford
  Dave C Chief Train Controller

Location: Maitland
Woodford,

Thanks for your well thought out information that makes great technical sense. Top speed is not the only thing that effects total travel time. More often a lower top speed with less stop start and congestion though good planning and management allows for a significant reduction in total travel time.

What would be the effect of having South of Seymour double line bi-directional running for both over time and reliability due to not having crosses?

Also the effect on having a clear run though Melb. e.g. no delays at Dynon etc?

As always find your input quite interesting from a technical point.

Cheers

Dave
  RC6 Beginner

Gentlemen,

All DMUs are not equal and the V'Locity is not the XPL even though they come from a common background. I think that you will find that the XPL will outperform the XPT in point to point times on any track that is significantly speed limited by curvature. In NSW that means any track until you are clear of the Great Dividing Range.  The TE curves show the reasons why.  The XPLs were specifically designed for high performance in this terrain.

To all of the contributors to this topic thank you for sharing your insights and knowledge. Comparing apples with apples is always an advantage in understanding a topic.

Best Wishes to All

RC6
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Woodford,

Thanks for your well thought out information that makes great technical sense. Top speed is not the only thing that effects total travel time. More often a lower top speed with less stop start and congestion though good planning and management allows for a significant reduction in total travel time.

What would be the effect of having South of Seymour double line bi-directional running for both over time and reliability due to not having crosses?

Also the effect on having a clear run though Melb. e.g. no delays at Dynon etc?

As always find your input quite interesting from a technical point.

Cheers

Dave
Dave C
This is somewhat outside my area of expertise, but since I was asked.............................

Currently the VLine's service can be delayed by anything up to 20 minutes due to both cross's at various points and shunting activity in Dynon. The morning VLine service to Melbourne can get from Craigeburn to Southern Cross yard in 26 minutes, but this is quite rare from my experience. I do not know about current practice as I have not been down to Melbourne for some time (like WHO would travel by train with the current past performance of the Albury train) but in the past the controlers were definitely giving the pass's priority., but one does get a situation like the morning Melbourne bound service where it has to cross the north bound XPT, (usually at Passing Lane 2) so a pass then has to be delayed.

I cannot see this changing any time soon though, neither the state or federal mobs appear to have any real time for rail

Its quite instructive to look at ARTC's timetables of the NE liine, the time taken for VLine services between Southern Cross and Seymour vary quite widely depending on apparently how many cross's there are. The evening service to Melbourne taking a good deal of time due I assume to the number of night freights going north.

woodford

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