New Route: Princes Bridge/City Loop-Epping

 
Topic moved from MSTS General Discussions by bevans on 24 Jun 2014 10:13
  Melbournesparks Chief Commissioner

Location: City of Eltham
Just wondering how the route is going?
railblogger

Still stuck on the last 1% stuff, which always seems to take 90% of the time. Signaling bugs, documentation, stuff like that. Might cut our losses on some of them, otherwise it will take forever.

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  HITACHI man Locomotive Fireman

Location: Regent, year 1999
Still stuck on the last 1% stuff, which always seems to take 90% of the time. Signaling bugs, documentation, stuff like that. Might cut our losses on some of them, otherwise it will take forever.
Melbournesparks



Just keep on trying you'll get there eventualraly Very Happy this route is going to be this best Very Happy
  ljayvee6 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Near the Apm Siding
Still stuck on the last 1% stuff, which always seems to take 90% of the time. Signaling bugs, documentation, stuff like that. Might cut our losses on some of them, otherwise it will take forever.
"Melbournesparks"

Is it done yet?
  HITACHI man Locomotive Fireman

Location: Regent, year 1999
I can't wait for this route, I am sooo excited!!!! Very Happy
it's going to be legen wait for it...dary!!!!!
  Melbournesparks Chief Commissioner

Location: City of Eltham
Unfortunately I've been a bit busy with work lately, so the finishing stuff has been taking a while.

In the meantime here's a picture of 107M on a railfan tour at Flinders Street.

  ljayvee6 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Near the Apm Siding
Unfortunately I've been a bit busy with work lately, so the finishing stuff has been taking a while.

In the meantime here's a picture of 107M on a railfan tour at Flinders Street.

Melbournesparks

Awesome!!!
  woodford Chief Commissioner

this has to be the best looking msts route to ever exist ever and forever Very HappyVery Happy
HITACHI man

Your prejudicious's are showing WinkWink , it's looking good though.

It will have to compete with such items as the late Alan Lownsbourghs magnificent Adelaide Hills and SE route. I have done a good few accuracy checks on the track (comparing the route with ARTC's curve and grade charts) and Alan did an excellent job

Also at least such routes as the SOB (it stress's even OR) and the freeware Bernan Bahn, mind you both of these were done by good sized groups. while the Adelaide Hills route is very largely all Alans work. Alan told me there was something like 6000 hours of work he put into this route.

Note, the current record for the number of objects on an MSTS/OR tile is now over 2000, I believe it does require hand editing the world files though. From memory all the objects Uid numbers have to be consectitive or the world editors memory management has a nervous breakdown. Another sugestion to increase object density is to make a whole town or city block one object allowing more complex track switching and yard layouts. It seems there some more awesome routes comming along around the traps.

The last two paragraphs gives some idea of the amount of effort needed to do a decent route.

woodford
  ARG706 Chief Commissioner

Location: SA
There were a few minor inaccuracies with the track in Allan Lownsborough's AHSE route. I remember him mentioning that the gradient on the hills line was about 1 in 70 (actual steepest point is around 1 in 45), but considering that this was the first route he ever attempted (according to his comments in a conversation I had with him years ago), and DEM data was only in the very early stages of finding its way into MSTS routes, (Allan manually did the terrain for this massive route himself) I think he did a magnificent job with the whole thing.

I'm finding it hard to even attempt to build a route in MSTS with Windows 7, because it thinks a program 'has stopped working' when it loads or attempts to save work for more than a few seconds. The message and subsequent shutdown of the program is just as annoying as that stupid alert on modern trains telling you to 'mind the gap' when alighting. I can't even load 3dcrafter in Windows 7 because that stupid message comes up. Apparently Amabillis is trying to resolve the problem, but I haven't seen a solution that has solved the issue yet. I did have some success in exporting some custom track into Railworks that I made in TSM and imported into to 3DC, but due to a period where I didn't have access to my computer last year, I need to refresh my memory on how to do it again.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

There were a few minor inaccuracies with the track in Allan Lownsborough's AHSE route. I remember him mentioning that the gradient on the hills line was about 1 in 70 (actual steepest point is around 1 in 45), but considering that this was the first route he ever attempted (according to his comments in a conversation I had with him years ago), and DEM data was only in the very early stages of finding its way into MSTS routes, (Allan manually did the terrain for this massive route himself) I think he did a magnificent job with the whole thing.

I'm finding it hard to even attempt to build a route in MSTS with Windows 7, because it thinks a program 'has stopped working' when it loads or attempts to save work for more than a few seconds. The message and subsequent shutdown of the program is just as annoying as that stupid alert on modern trains telling you to 'mind the gap' when alighting. I can't even load 3dcrafter in Windows 7 because that stupid message comes up. Apparently Amabillis is trying to resolve the problem, but I haven't seen a solution that has solved the issue yet. I did have some success in exporting some custom track into Railworks that I made in TSM and imported into to 3DC, but due to a period where I didn't have access to my computer last year, I need to refresh my memory on how to do it again.
ARG706


Alan mentioned the same thing to me about the grades through the hills, but I checked them in multiple places and found they were within a reasonably correct range. I was quite puzzled when he said he was going to redo the route to the correct grades.  I found the main line from Adelaide to Serviceton matchs the ARTC data well, I was and still am most impressed.

As to windows 7 I have mentioned this on another list but I do know that more than a few people are sticking to Windows XP like glue to avoid these sort of problems, like me for instance. From memory MSTS is not officially supported by Microsoft in Windows 7 and latter, ie its not garrunteed to work. So it would be worth to try and hang onto an older system running XP. I know in Melbourne one can get a REAL good system a fews years old running XP for only around $100.

Unfortunately so far the OR devs have resisted all pressure for an early start on a world editor, one of them though has started work on a path editor. This being the first part of an activity editor.

Lindsay
  Melbournesparks Chief Commissioner

Location: City of Eltham
Your prejudicious's are showing WinkWink , it's looking good though.

It will have to compete with such items as the late Alan Lownsbourghs magnificent Adelaide Hills and SE route. I have done a good few accuracy checks on the track (comparing the route with ARTC's curve and grade charts) and Alan did an excellent job

Also at least such routes as the SOB (it stress's even OR) and the freeware Bernan Bahn, mind you both of these were done by good sized groups. while the Adelaide Hills route is very largely all Alans work. Alan told me there was something like 6000 hours of work he put into this route.

Note, the current record for the number of objects on an MSTS/OR tile is now over 2000, I believe it does require hand editing the world files though. From memory all the objects Uid numbers have to be consectitive or the world editors memory management has a nervous breakdown. Another sugestion to increase object density is to make a whole town or city block one object allowing more complex track switching and yard layouts. It seems there some more awesome routes comming along around the traps.

The last two paragraphs gives some idea of the amount of effort needed to do a decent route.

woodford
woodford

Unfortunately I don't think it will hold a candle to Allan's work for either scope or accuracy, but I did try and get the Clifton Hill to city section reasonably accurate. Even though it was built pretty much entirely by eye (though signaling diagrams were used for the track layout and signal placement) I think it came out pretty well. The sightlines and views in the city that we all know so well seem to come out much the same as real life.

A special effort was made with the track laying in certain areas to avoid it looking like it was obviously constrained by MSTS track sections. This included laying a lot of parallel tracks individually at a closer spacing than the default MSTS double track, which is way wider than Melbourne double track spacing.

Because a lot of the city scenery was custom made anyway, the latter method was used to keep the tile object count within reasonable limits. This was taken to the extent that the entirety of the Flinders Street/Princes Bridge complex, platforms and parcels dock included, is comprised of only about six individual objects.


The route is about as finished as it will ever be now, unfortunately I've become too busy at work to spend too much more time polishing. Is anyone familiar with the process for packaging a route for download? I need to remove all the unused and default objects from the shape and textures folders to reduce the size to something reasonable. I think Route Riter has a means of doing that, but I havn't had much luck so far.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Is anyone familiar with the process for packaging a route for download? I need to remove all the unused and default objects from the shape and textures folders to reduce the size to something reasonable. I think Route Riter has a means of doing that, but I havn't had much luck so far.
Melbournesparks

Would that process be similar to the one you used for packaging the Metro Comeng? Also, would a simple zip file suffice?
  superheatedsteam Assistant Commissioner

Location: Perth, WA
It sounds like 'that stupid message' is a Windows exception error. If you cant glean any additional information from that error message (or the details drop down if there is one) then open the event viewer and check the application log. You should see a reference to the application crash there. Note down the faulting program, faulting module and error/exception code. This may point to the possible cause.

I don't do much route building on myWin7 computer, but I can open routes, add and remove objects and traverse many kilometres of track without any error. The problem is not with Windows 7 itself but how it is configured.

If UAC and Antivirus software are not the cause and the exception code is 0xc0000005 then try disabling DEP in windows. You do this in a command prompt by typing:

bcdedit.exe /set {current} nxAlwaysOff

Reboot the computer for the changes totake effect.
  HITACHI man Locomotive Fireman

Location: Regent, year 1999
Your prejudicious's are showing WinkWink , it's looking good though.

It will have to compete with such items as the late Alan Lownsbourghs magnificent Adelaide Hills and SE route. I have done a good few accuracy checks on the track (comparing the route with ARTC's curve and grade charts) and Alan did an excellent job

Also at least such routes as the SOB (it stress's even OR) and the freeware Bernan Bahn, mind you both of these were done by good sized groups. while the Adelaide Hills route is very largely all Alans work. Alan told me there was something like 6000 hours of work he put into this route.

Note, the current record for the number of objects on an MSTS/OR tile is now over 2000, I believe it does require hand editing the world files though. From memory all the objects Uid numbers have to be consectitive or the world editors memory management has a nervous breakdown. Another sugestion to increase object density is to make a whole town or city block one object allowing more complex track switching and yard layouts. It seems there some more awesome routes comming along around the traps.

The last two paragraphs gives some idea of the amount of effort needed to do a decent route.

woodford
woodford

sorry I am so looking forward for this route,although I had a look at alan lownsbourghs Adelaide hills route and it dose look amazing
  Melbournesparks Chief Commissioner

Location: City of Eltham
Would that process be similar to the one you used for packaging the Metro Comeng? Also, would a simple zip file suffice?
railblogger


Not really, the process for routes is different. As part of the construction process a lot of files were added to the route, but not all of them are nessesarily used in it's final form. At the moment the route folder comes out to about 850mb, too big for practical internet distrubution. That could be cut by 25-50% by a packaging process that removes the unused files. The resulting smaller folder could then be packaged in a zip or rar file to further shrink it for distribution.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

There were a few minor inaccuracies with the track in Allan Lownsborough's AHSE route. I remember him mentioning that the gradient on the hills line was about 1 in 70 (actual steepest point is around 1 in 45), but considering that this was the first route he ever attempted (according to his comments in a conversation I had with him years ago), and DEM data was only in the very early stages of finding its way into MSTS routes, (Allan manually did the terrain for this massive route himself) I think he did a magnificent job with the whole thing.
ARG706


I checked it again for the first 9 kilometers the actual line goes from around 1 in 100 gradually up to 1 in 70,  Alans done the first part as a continous 1 in 100 the second part 1 in 75. From kilometer 9 to Belair the real line varies between mostly 1 in 50 to a bit of 1 in 47, the route uses a grade of 1 in 54 for this section. Between Belair and Mt lofty the line is a continous 1 in 45. Alan has used 1 in 47 for this.
In my original analysis of the line the grades were check all the way to Serrviceton as stated the results were impressive.
The curve radius's matched well to.

So while it is not perfect being slightly flater than in real life its no near as bad as Alan made out it was.

So when one is driving the route one an get a reasonable good representation of why a takes a freight so long to get from Adelaide to Murray bridge, and why they want to build a diversion.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The route is about as finished as it will ever be now, unfortunately I've become too busy at work to spend too much more time polishing. Is anyone familiar with the process for packaging a route for download? I need to remove all the unused and default objects from the shape and textures folders to reduce the size to something reasonable. I think Route Riter has a means of doing that, but I havn't had much luck so far.
Melbournesparks


Have you checked out the Route_riter tutorials on Steam4me particularly.......

http://www.msts.steam4me.net/tutorials/remove_tiles.html

As for packaging a zip file (or multiple zip file archive) of the route folder and possibly another zip file containing the paths and any consists, activities and rolling stock the route requires. Thats  basicly how the SOB is distiubuted.

A decent route (and this sound like it is) will be down loaded no matter how one packages it, as long as its installable. A route is simpler in this regard than an activity by itself.

As for route file sizes. I have quite a restricted internet access but all the same I prefer few larger files (as long as they are below around 600 to 800 megabytes) as one can always drive 30 kilometres into town to the internet cafe which has VERY fast download speeds (a CD sized file in 10 minutes).

woodford
  Melbournesparks Chief Commissioner

Location: City of Eltham
Have you checked out the Route_riter tutorials on Steam4me particularly.......

http://www.msts.steam4me.net/tutorials/remove_tiles.html

As for packaging a zip file (or multiple zip file archive) of the route folder and possibly another zip file containing the paths and any consists, activities and rolling stock the route requires. Thats basicly how the SOB is distiubuted.

A decent route (and this sound like it is) will be down loaded no matter how one packages it, as long as its installable. A route is simpler in this regard than an activity by itself.

As for route file sizes. I have quite a restricted internet access but all the same I prefer few larger files (as long as they are below around 600 to 800 megabytes) as one can always drive 30 kilometres into town to the internet cafe which has VERY fast download speeds (a CD sized file in 10 minutes).

woodford
woodford


Thanks for that, I got it to work. Not sure what I was doing wrong before. That reduced the folder size down to about 450mb, which then compresses down to a 112mb .7z file. Much more practical for distribution.

Now I just need to write a bit of basic documentation and it will be ready to go for what could be most kindly described as a public beta. I did want to have rollingstock and activities finished to package with it, but I'm not sure if that's going to happen within a reasonable timeframe.
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Thanks for that, I got it to work. Not sure what I was doing wrong before. That reduced the folder size down to about 450mb, which then compresses down to a 112mb .7z file. Much more practical for distribution.

Now I just need to write a bit of basic documentation and it will be ready to go for what could be most kindly described as a public beta. I did want to have rollingstock and activities finished to package with it, but I'm not sure if that's going to happen within a reasonable timeframe.
Melbournesparks

it will be good if you can put a Bug tracker on it
so the users can report in the beta

i hope this helps


Matt Smile
  Melbournesparks Chief Commissioner

Location: City of Eltham
it will be good if you can put a Bug tracker on it
so the users can report in the beta

i hope this helps


Matt Smile
X'Trapolis-904M


The bug tracker will take the form of this thread, post here if you have any problems.
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Is it done yet?
ljayvee6

please don't say that
a good route takes time so please wait until it is done
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Are there AI Trains in this game?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Are there AI Trains in this game?
X'Trapolis-904M

Set up an activity with them, play it, and you will have AI trains.
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
i have some epping line timetables from the 90's
if you want i can PM it to you so you can add it in to the timetable manager


Matt Smile
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
i have some epping line timetables from the 90's
if you want i can PM it to you so you can add it in to the timetable manager


Matt Smile
X'Trapolis-904M

Is this directed at me?
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Is this directed at me?
railblogger

no it is for melbournesparks

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