Clapped out D/E Loco's

 
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

Being reduced to the occasional visit to the mighty NSW, where am I likely to witness the most frequent utilisation of any remaining 'heritage' diesels still in regular use?

Newcastle and points north of would be ideal


Thank you

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  cuthbert Train Controller

Not a having a go at gw0071 in particular, but I have a question about the word "heritage"?  Is it official or just something gunzels have attributed to locos past their "use-by" date? Also, there is usually a Government organisation that sets rules about "heritage" listed items - is there one for old locos in Australia? A "Heritage" item is something that you wouldn't allow anyone "off the street" with little experience to go play with any time, like what happens now!



As for the answer to your question - QRN (CLs, 421s, 422s), ElZorro (or whatever they are called now) and a few other "small players" still get the "old girls" out making money in northern NSW.
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
Most "trip" trains in Sydney, anything going from Botany to Minto or other yards around Sydney will usually have at least one "vintage" unit, ie 44, 48, ex SAR 830, 442, and 47 class locos, which run with GL's ("rebuilt" 442's, effectively new build locos with a few salvaged parts) or MZ's (ex DSB engines)
  WayneTedrow Junior Train Controller

Who says they're "clapped out"!!
Cheers
  cuthbert Train Controller

Who says they're "clapped out"!! Cheers
"WayneTedrow"


Here, Here!


Their frames may be fatigued and ready to snap in two, but I'm sure the auxiliary equipment is just fine and up to the job!


I still want to know where the word "heritage" comes into it?


  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.



I still want to know where the word "heritage" comes into it?

"cuthbert"


I don't necessarily agree with the "heritage" tag, but its a reference to their age.

eg 4401, 4403, 4464, 4468 and 4490 (among a few others) are preserved for heritage use, yet, 4458, 4461, 4484, 4488, 4498 (among others) are all in daily revenue service, and are roughly the same age as the aforementioned heritage units. 
  cuthbert Train Controller




I still want to know where the word "heritage" comes into it?

"cuthbert"


I don't necessarily agree with the "heritage" tag, but its a reference to their age.

eg 4401, 4403, 4464, 4468 and 4490 (among a few others) are preserved for heritage use, yet, 4458, 4461, 4484, 4488, 4498 (among others) are all in daily revenue service, and are roughly the same age as the aforementioned heritage units. 
"newington"


I see your point and it's a description, so on that idea, is there an official organisation that governs the "heritage" side of things. I'm thinking on the line of old houses/buildings/trees/landmarks, as we have Local Councils and State and Commonwealth Agencies that do the protection and enforcement duties!

I know NSW has the Powerhouse Museum and QR has their Workshops Museum, but what other "body" is there that could make life hard for SIMS Metal?
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

The word 'heritage' was used for want of a better term, hence the connotations

The term clapped out justified by the fact that the locomotive's original owners deemed them uneconomical many years ago

Something to consider is that in motor vehicle terms the NSW RTA deems any car older than thirty years to be historic

The fact that these loco's remain in commercial service is quite unique considering the frequency of new equipment deliveries which will soon relegate them to non-commercial operation/scrap

Therefore, I stand by my turn of phrase

Thank you to the few who made a valid contribution to this thread

To the remainder - go out and get some sun on your backs
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.


The fact that these loco's remain in commercial service is quite unique considering the frequency of new equipment deliveries which will soon relegate them to non-commercial operation/scrap

Therefore, I stand by my turn of phrase

Thank you to the few who made a valid contribution to this thread

"gw0071"


Oh ho ho ho, don't you worry, trip trains will be run by "heritage" units for many years into the future. As long as POTA run trip trains, there will be "heritage units" of some description running in commercial service. 
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Veering from the original topic, these "heritage" units (as an aside, I don't see why so much emphasis has been placed on this one word, really...) are at the present time, indispensable. New locomotives are expensive, not to mention the time taken to get them from the factory (as well as the building and testing time, one also must consider the other competing companies that have placed orders in the queue ahead of you...), and it would be a waste to use modern, high horsepower locomotives on metropolitan trip train working. The other problem is those companies that own more modern locomotives are flat out using them themselves, and certainly wouldn't sell them to a competitor!

These units cannot and will not last forever - an interesting effect will be felt with the introduction of the Carbon Tax affecting rail but not road transport. Given the older units are rather... erm... generous with their emissions, surely they will become even more of a liability than they are already (with the older units being prone to mechanical failures, and requiring an ever vigilant maintenance cycle to keep them going). Perhaps it will only serve to spur the larger operators into sourcing modern locomotives for longer haul freights, allowing them to retire the worst offenders and reduce the amount of work the other locomotives will do.

Depending on what locomotives in specific you want to see... If you are after a specific class, that would be easier?

P&OTA typically operate their two Yennora to Port Botany rakes with 44, 48 and 830 class. These are fairly predictable with timing, with the two trains crossing between Yennora and Lidcombe normally between 0850 and 0920. P&OTA mainline trains draw from a pool including locomotives from the 48, 830, 600, 442, T, and 80 Classes (as well as the more modern RL, 1100, GL, VL and G classes).

IRA operate their trip trains between Minto and Cooks River/Port Botany with 44 and 47 classes mixed in with the GL, 14 and EL Class. These locomotives are also used on their mainline trains depending on operational requirements.

Although the exception rather than the rule, SSR have used all of their fleet on coal train duties at one time or another - the best display would be the use of the B, S, 49, GM12, T and 48 classes as bank engines for their Newstan Coal train (see it between Booragul and Adamstown stations, as the bankers cut off at Broadmeadow Yard). They also use all of the above, plus 4204 and the 47 Class on their infrastructure trains (as I understand it, 4204 has not been used as a bank engine, and the 47's were found to be unsuitable).

El Zorro's single northern rake seems to attract the odd locos too, with 45, T, 48 and 80 class being used alongside the G, EL and VL Classes (The S Class used for a while have been returned to Victorian operations). Predicting this train is impossible in my experience, so count yourself lucky if you see it!

QRNational trip trains within Sydney normally fall to the 422 class, although 421 and the X Class have also been used on these trains. The CLF and CLP classes also feature depending on operational requirements.

FreightLiner have recently hired HL203 (42203) from CFCLA as well as a few 423 Class from QRN for use on their north-western container service, which may have been impacted by the recent flooding? Another one for the Hunter Valley, at any rate.

Again, ask more specific questions, and hopefully we can provide targeted information. 
  beyerpeacock Assistant Commissioner

Location: Gorton Foundry


The fact that these loco's remain in commercial service is quite unique considering the frequency of new equipment deliveries which will soon relegate them to non-commercial operation/scrap

Therefore, I stand by my turn of phrase

Thank you to the few who made a valid contribution to this thread

"gw0071"


Oh ho ho ho, don't you worry, trip trains will be run by "heritage" units for many years into the future. As long as POTA run trip trains, there will be "heritage units" of some description running in commercial service. 
"newington"



Until they do score themselves a cracked head or throw a leg out, or get pranged and it becomes more economical to hire a C44ACi or GT46ACe. . . . probably a lot closer to being reality than you think young fella. Those two types of engine are the modern day 44's and 48's. The f****rs are everywhere.
  craigd Deputy Commissioner

Location: A Thinktank near you
Nothing wrong with using the word 'heritage' to describe old locos. Once they are passed on from their 'traditional indigenous owner' like all the stuff PN acquired from SRA/Freightcorp, they becomes 'heritage' since they are 'hand me down' units.

It also means locos that are just old (say 20+ yrs) since the normal projected lifetime of railway rollingstock is about 20 to 30 yrs.

'Clapped out' has a totally different meaning - ie. run-down and not given the proper maintenance to operate in optimal condition. That's NOT heritage but it doesn't mean that a heritage loco isn't also clapped out.

A lot of people believe that 'heritage' in industrial terms means something that is no longer in full-time commercial revenue-generating service.

Craig.
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.


The fact that these loco's remain in commercial service is quite unique considering the frequency of new equipment deliveries which will soon relegate them to non-commercial operation/scrap

Therefore, I stand by my turn of phrase

Thank you to the few who made a valid contribution to this thread

"gw0071"


Oh ho ho ho, don't you worry, trip trains will be run by "heritage" units for many years into the future. As long as POTA run trip trains, there will be "heritage units" of some description running in commercial service. 
"newington"



Until they do score themselves a cracked head or throw a leg out, or get pranged and it becomes more economical to hire a C44ACi or GT46ACe. . . . probably a lot closer to being reality than you think young fella. Those two types of engine are the modern day 44's and 48's. The f****rs are everywhere.
"beyerpeacock"


Its highly unlikely that C44ACi's or GT46ACe will be used on trip trains, the power isn't warranted, and CFCLA are looking to big long term contracts for their big new toys, PN is unlikely to put 82's or newer into trip  service, and POTA is stuck with what they've got. 

For the foreseeable future, there will be 48/830/44/442/47/GL/14 on trip trains, and when they finally give up the ghost, then we'll see. 
  cuthbert Train Controller

PN is unlikely to put 82's or newer into trip  service
"newington"


They do now and have been doing it for years at certain locations! Brisbane has a trip train or two per day with an NR. It's not practical to send the "shunt loco" out, as it is busy shunting the yard.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
PN is unlikely to put 82's or newer into trip  service
"newington"


They do now and have been doing it for years at certain locations! Brisbane has a trip train or two per day with an NR. It's not practical to send the "shunt loco" out, as it is busy shunting the yard.
"cuthbert"


Mmm, now that you mention it, I recall photographing a fairly lengthy trip train from Botany to Chullora behind NR/AN. 
  farmer_zazi Beginner

Location: Lismore, NSW
The word 'heritage' was used for want of a better term, hence the connotations

The term clapped out justified by the fact that the locomotive's original owners deemed them uneconomical many years ago

Something to consider is that in motor vehicle terms the NSW RTA deems any car older than thirty years to be historic

The fact that these loco's remain in commercial service is quite unique considering the frequency of new equipment deliveries which will soon relegate them to non-commercial operation/scrap

Therefore, I stand by my turn of phrase

Thank you to the few who made a valid contribution to this thread

To the remainder - go out and get some sun on your backs
"gw0071"


HI Guys,

I've just started on the forum and I encourage all to bite your tongue a little if someone asks a question. Most people use their own terminology and so there is no reason to be harsh towards people using terms like heritage, clapped out etc which are clearly not meant to be formal terms in qw0071s post. I was rather surprised to see just how off-topic his question became (first reply). If you want to keep this forum popular dont scare people off (like new people like me).

DO NOT CRITICIZE SOMEONE FOR ASKING A QUESTION!
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
Interesting how a beginners first post is to flame someone else.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Interesting how a beginners first post is to flame someone else.
"newington"


I don't see any personal attacks in that post. The person has registered on the forum, seen a simple question asked, and seen people get more bogged down in the words used than in answering their question - a fair point to be made! It scares off beginners to see such threads!
  newington Chief Commissioner

Location: Here, very occasionally.
Interesting how a beginners first post is to flame someone else.
"newington"


I don't see any personal attacks in that post. The person has registered on the forum, seen a simple question asked, and seen people get more bogged down in the words used than in answering their question - a fair point to be made! It scares off beginners to see such threads!
"Raichase"



Righto, point taken.
  farmer_zazi Beginner

Location: Lismore, NSW
Interesting how a beginners first post is to flame someone else.
"newington"


I don't see any personal attacks in that post. The person has registered on the forum, seen a simple question asked, and seen people get more bogged down in the words used than in answering their question - a fair point to be made! It scares off beginners to see such threads!
"Raichase"



Righto, point taken.
"newington"


I didn't mean to flame. I was worried about how people seem to be pretty hard on people here.
  MBAX Chief Commissioner

Location: Mostly the Imperial
If you get up around Jannali to see the QRN grain train (usually 3958) with a combo of 2206 and/or 3101, 3103 or 3122 you should get a good look at some really clapped out old units. They have had a Dulux overhaul but that is about it. For reference have a look at this effort:

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11366981.htm 
  neale Station Staff

Spotted a clapped out one in Bathurst recenty on a grain train. It was broken down at the station & got a couple of pictures of it while they were getting it going again.

Proof that there are some clapped out ones still going around.








  farmer_zazi Beginner

Location: Lismore, NSW
Wow. They are sad looking! I guess this is probably a good indication of what 'clapped out' looks like!
  cuthbert Train Controller

I didn't mean to flame. I was worried about how people seem to be pretty hard on people here.
"farmer_zazi"


Autistic Spectrum Disorder promulgating a lack of Tact is perhaps the reason?
  farmer_zazi Beginner

Location: Lismore, NSW
I didn't mean to flame. I was worried about how people seem to be pretty hard on people here.
"farmer_zazi"


Autistic Spectrum Disorder promulgating a lack of Tact is perhaps the reason?
"cuthbert"


I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

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