XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I will blame them if I want A6. This sort of thing is why they were voted out of office in 2011. The 14 endeavour sets could have been converted to xplorers if 21 hunters were built instead of only 7. The spare xplorer carriages that allow a build up to 4 car sets could have built up more 3 car sets from these 2 car sets.

Having said that I am glad these new trains are coming as they are a leap up in technology and the libs have an advantage because unlike the XPT's the Xplorer's / Endeavours are not end of life. Converting Xplorers in to endeavours will help them ply there trade on the hunter, southern highlands and bomaderry lines.

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  a6et Minister for Railways

I will blame them if I want A6. This sort of thing is why they were voted out of office in 2011. The 14 endeavour sets could have been converted to xplorers if 21 hunters were built instead of only 7. The spare xplorer carriages that allow a build up to 4 car sets could have built up more 3 car sets from these 2 car sets.

Having said that I am glad these new trains are coming as they are a leap up in technology and the libs have an advantage because unlike the XPT's the Xplorer's / Endeavours are not end of life. Converting Xplorers in to endeavours will help them ply there trade on the hunter, southern highlands and bomaderry lines.
simstrain
Blame them if you want sims, but as I said you also need to blame the other mob as well. Having worked as a fireman then driver for 26 odd years under both sides of politics, none of them are blameless in the way they destroyed the railways.

Just my opinion though and likely 99.9% of other employees at that and later times, even today.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I will blame them if I want A6. This sort of thing is why they were voted out of office in 2011. The 14 endeavour sets could have been converted to xplorers if 21 hunters were built instead of only 7. The spare xplorer carriages that allow a build up to 4 car sets could have built up more 3 car sets from these 2 car sets.

Having said that I am glad these new trains are coming as they are a leap up in technology and the libs have an advantage because unlike the XPT's the Xplorer's / Endeavours are not end of life. Converting Xplorers in to endeavours will help them ply there trade on the hunter, southern highlands and bomaderry lines.
Blame them if you want sims, but as I said you also need to blame the other mob as well. Having worked as a fireman then driver for 26 odd years under both sides of politics, none of them are blameless in the way they destroyed the railways.

Just my opinion though and likely 99.9% of other employees at that and later times, even today.
a6et

The railways were always going to have to trim down. The car and truck took over most of the trains duties as new motorways were built. The only way to have stopped that would have been to build newer straighter rail lines.

The thing is that I don't mind the new train sets. They are a step up on efficiency and modernness over the existing rolling stock and should be no less appropriate then the Xplorer to cater for hot days.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

My solution:

Lease and repaint all available EL or AN class locos. Add them to some services as substitute power cars to hook and pull while essential maintenance and overhaul is carried out on the XPs.

The pensioners won't notice the name, any diff to the train, and even the additional noise...
The pensioners will notice that their pasties and lasagne are cold, and that the carriages are stuffy and very dark.
NSWRcars
Then they should run the replacement locos on the overnight journeys only.... They tend to run the aircon in freezer mode anyways even with the XP power cars....

During the day journeys, they can lease a power van or drop a couple of heavy duty diesel generators into the loco...
  a6et Minister for Railways

My solution:

Lease and repaint all available EL or AN class locos. Add them to some services as substitute power cars to hook and pull while essential maintenance and overhaul is carried out on the XPs.

The pensioners won't notice the name, any diff to the train, and even the additional noise...
The pensioners will notice that their pasties and lasagne are cold, and that the carriages are stuffy and very dark.
Then they should run the replacement locos on the overnight journeys only.... They tend to run the aircon in freezer mode anyways even with the XP power cars....

During the day journeys, they can lease a power van or drop a couple of heavy duty diesel generators into the loco...
ANR
The Air Conditioners are on set temps but have a switch control that are the same system as found in all reverse cycle air cons even for homes, heat or cool models, was the same with older air conditioned trains as well.  What is much of the problem in Summer is that there is a lot of heat that comes through the windows which are wider than older types, Deb sets excepted, but the glazing really does not help keep the heat out. Once the sun has set, and the air circulation changes its natural for the carriages to cool down inside but the control still rates at the set temp.

At night depending on the outside temp, that brings the cooling aspect to the carriages.  In the older Deb sets and aircon trains there was a TEO who would travel on them all, it was his job to ensure there was a constant temp and checks of the settings also to fix any issues. Today, there is no guard as such on them, only a person who is over all the on board staff and qualified safe working if needed, otherwise only the driver is the safe working person on board, and he has to stay on the train under emergencies and the like. (unless safe working rules in general have changed)

The TEO especially in summer would be constantly walking through the train and checking each of the equipment boxes/panels in each carriage to ensure they were working ok. Today, with their removal as well as the guard what is set up at the depot remains that way until its return, and only change is made when the official directions are sent out from whoever is responsible to switch to the next season. Big choice Summer or Winter according to official dates, not the weather.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I would never do an overnight journey in the XPT without a heavy jacket, hoodie, and trousers, especially in the middle of summer. Funny that such cost cutting and penny pinching has led to this nonsense. Wondering how smart the CAF will be to adjust temp settings. My guess is that it will be no different because some clown who is responsible for setting and keeping to budget will overlook this for the sake of meeting their KPIs and receiving a nice bonus, ... while the travelling pensioners become popsicles.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Then they should run the replacement locos on the overnight journeys only.... They tend to run the aircon in freezer mode anyways even with the XP power cars....

During the day journeys, they can lease a power van or drop a couple of heavy duty diesel generators into the loco...
ANR
Forget all this hook-and-pull nonsense, it’s a ridiculous and unworkable solution. Fix the maintenance issues with the XPs. They need to keep running for a few more years until replacement trains arrive. These things don’t break down simply because they are old.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Then they should run the replacement locos on the overnight journeys only.... They tend to run the aircon in freezer mode anyways even with the XP power cars....

During the day journeys, they can lease a power van or drop a couple of heavy duty diesel generators into the loco...
Forget all this hook-and-pull nonsense, it’s a ridiculous and unworkable solution. Fix the maintenance issues with the XPs. They need to keep running for a few more years until replacement trains arrive. These things don’t break down simply because they are old.
NSWRcars
I agree re the age aspect, thing is though, I would have little doubt that there is a cut down in the maintenance staff at Meeks Road, also likely in spare parts.  Over the years successive governments have allowed parts and staff to dwindle and running on dried out oily rags.  When the extra's were ordered when the Melbourne service was introduced IIRC there were two extra Power cars included in the order along with the carriages to ensure service continuity.  Correct me if wrong on that order.

It was no different even back in the steam days, as soon as a loco was withdrawn fitters had to go up onto the bank and rob the set aside engines of parts to keep the operating ones going. Not much different 40+ years into the future, except there are no set aside units to get parts from unless scavenged from the spares. making them unusable.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Maybe we need to scavenge the static display GM PH101 engines from Sulphide Street?

They were dropped in when the original engine parts were no longer manufactured.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

For those complaining about the new rolling stock just covering the existing xpt, xplorer and endeavour rolling stock. Might I remind you that not all endevour services are going to be moving to these new trains. The hunter line between newcastle interchange and maitland for one will continue to be serviced by 2 car endeavours in to the future and not the new regional rail fleet.

kiama to bomaderry is also likely to stay as an endeavour service. This will free up significant new regional carriages to offer a daily albury / griffith service and a more frequent parkes / broken hill service.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

I'm not forgetting those at all.

Rough Distances from Melbourne to these 4 destinations in regional Victoria that vinelander mentioned.

Bairnsdale - 266km's
Albury - 326km
Swan Hill - 347km's
Warrnambool - 263km's

Now lets compare the distance from Sydney to destinations in regional NSW such as your example of Broken Hill.

Broken Hill - 1218km's
Dubbo - 462km's
Armidale - 579km's
Moree - 666km's
Griffith - 700km's
Casino - 805km's
Brisbane - 989km's
Melbourne - 946km's

The only equivalent distance nsw trainlink regional services are to Canberra at 285km's. So don't go on about how great your regional services in victoria are when you only truly have 4 and none have to cover the distances that the NSW fleet has to deal with.

The XPT replacement will have a lot of area to cover and that is why you don't be comparing your tiny vline services to what is happening in NSW.

I'm not being ageist either as that is the main make up of users on nsw trainlink regional services. Some pensioners may not be old either.

This new fleet can't come soon enough as the XPT power cars are breaking down left right and centre at the moment.
simstrain

Sims...you simply cannot bang on about the distance the NSWGR operates its trains when in two of your examples the train only operates ONCE a week...or even LESS Exclamation

The only trains that operate daily in your example are Dubbo...and Armidale/Moree because the train splits along the way.

The other examples you cite are on the main north and main south so have to operate if you guys are going to keep operating an inter-capital service.

Victoria's services may be shorter distance...but we will soon be operating up to 5 services on our long distance lines...EVERY DAY.

https://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/

Moreover...5 services a day will NOT be in operation for the sole use of 'pensioners'...and if NSWGR is in such a parlous state that only the aged and retirees are using your system...perhaps the whole of your system needs a root and branch review.

Also...as Victoria is solely responsible for the operation of the Overland...you can add that 727 Km journey into your example as well.

Mike.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

For those complaining about the new rolling stock just covering the existing xpt, xplorer and endeavour rolling stock. Might I remind you that not all endevour services are going to be moving to these new trains.
simstrain
Who’s complaining? All the press releases over the last two years (as recently as February 2019) have said that the Regional Rail Fleet “will replace the existing XPT, XPLORER and Endeavour trains”. There aren’t enough new trains in the order to replace all these trains and provide new services, so it is obvious that some of the existing trains will be cascaded down to local work. By the time new Momentum Trains are delivered from 2023 the XPL/END will be pushing 30 years old, and while they should provide some further service, their replacement will be imminent.

History repeats: there weren’t enough XPT ordered to replace country trains; there weren’t enough XPL/END ordered to replace remaining railcars and loco-hauled stock; there weren’t enough Hunters ordered to expand services, and there weren’t enough new CAF trains ordered to replace the current ageing fleet and expand services.
  a6et Minister for Railways


Sims...you simply cannot bang on about the distance the NSWGR operates its trains when in two of your examples the train only operates ONCE a week...or even LESS Exclamation

The only trains that operate daily in your example are Dubbo...and Armidale/Moree because the train splits along the way.

The other examples you cite are on the main north and main south so have to operate if you guys are going to keep operating an inter-capital service.

Victoria's services may be shorter distance...but we will soon be operating up to 5 services on our long distance lines...EVERY DAY.

https://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/

Moreover...5 services a day will NOT be in operation for the sole use of 'pensioners'...and if NSWGR is in such a parlous state that only the aged and retirees are using your system...perhaps the whole of your system needs a root and branch review.

Also...as Victoria is solely responsible for the operation of the Overland...you can add that 727 Km journey into your example as well.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Don't forget that 2 of the North Coast XPT services are within the state, being Grafton for one and Casino for the other service, the Casino service does provide connecting buses to various locations along the routes to the Gold Coast and to Brisbane plus the return connections.

The Bathurst Bullets introduction put some extra strain on the Endeavor fleet and the said introduction some time this year of another service is not going to help either.

As a side point there is no more NSWGR which was made defunct back in the 80's or earlier when it become firstly PTCNSW and then SRA, Railcorp, goodness knows what other brands as well.

Theres little doubt that pensioners use the service with two return tickets per year allowed, but not everyone uses them as there are a lot of grey nomads on the roads that sold up their homes and live along the roads.  There are others who use the services as well that get concessions better than pensioners, such as the indigenous community. Some trains are also packed for the majority of their distances as well, and not so much seasonal or the like either.

While the current arrangements with the Melbourne XPT services are jointly, or were jointly funded by both states, I would hope that continues with some agreement between the respective state governments for some sharing in the costs, otherwise its possible that the services may be cut to Albury and change trains there to/from Melbourne a step back in time and wont help patronage levels either.  ATM, NSW does maintain the XPT sets and no help from Victoria, so only referring to the same arrangement as before when the interstate services and extra carriages and power units were ordered for the extra distances.

Whatever and whenever the new trains get here, for me the first sets need to be only replace the longer distance trains, allowing the older trains to be used on additional services especially in/to regional areas.

To me its great to see Victoria increasing regional services, love to see that happen in NSW as well.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

I'm not forgetting those at all.

Rough Distances from Melbourne to these 4 destinations in regional Victoria that vinelander mentioned.

Bairnsdale - 266km's
Albury - 326km
Swan Hill - 347km's
Warrnambool - 263km's

Now lets compare the distance from Sydney to destinations in regional NSW such as your example of Broken Hill.

Broken Hill - 1218km's
Dubbo - 462km's
Armidale - 579km's
Moree - 666km's
Griffith - 700km's
Casino - 805km's
Brisbane - 989km's
Melbourne - 946km's

The only equivalent distance nsw trainlink regional services are to Canberra at 285km's. So don't go on about how great your regional services in victoria are when you only truly have 4 and none have to cover the distances that the NSW fleet has to deal with.

The XPT replacement will have a lot of area to cover and that is why you don't be comparing your tiny vline services to what is happening in NSW.

I'm not being ageist either as that is the main make up of users on nsw trainlink regional services. Some pensioners may not be old either.

This new fleet can't come soon enough as the XPT power cars are breaking down left right and centre at the moment.
Sims...you simply cannot bang on about the distance the NSWGR operates its trains when in two of your examples the train only operates ONCE a week...or even LESS Exclamation

The only trains that operate daily in your example are Dubbo...and Armidale/Moree because the train splits along the way.

The other examples you cite are on the main north and main south so have to operate if you guys are going to keep operating an inter-capital service.

Victoria's services may be shorter distance...but we will soon be operating up to 5 services on our long distance lines...EVERY DAY.

https://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/

Moreover...5 services a day will NOT be in operation for the sole use of 'pensioners'...and if NSWGR is in such a parlous state that only the aged and retirees are using your system...perhaps the whole of your system needs a root and branch review.

Also...as Victoria is solely responsible for the operation of the Overland...you can add that 727 Km journey into your example as well.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike,
What does spilting a train have to do with anything? Its an efficient way of operating the service.

The weekly services are to a very small population, how much do you think they need? Vic cannot justify going 650km to Mildura by train.

Vic vs NSW
Vic is relatively small in comparison and mostly flat, thus enabling faster services on original alignments with minimal investment to upgrade. Sydney in comparison is surrounded by a mountain range and that same mountain range extends North south following the population base of the state. By the time you get anywhere flat like Vic, almost no one lives there, ie western half of the state.

Vic doesn't even have intrastate jet passenger services due to its limited size, NSW does. The only part of the state of significant distance from Melbourne is Mildura with a population of a large town and very little in between for 300km or half way back to Melbourne.

Most of Vic's regional rail services would fit in Sydney's interurban service distances. The so called 5 services a day to Albury is nothing in comparison and operates on the intrastate, ie on the back of Fed funding which is where most of the states RFR funding came from. The only concession being Syd- Canberra rail service which has been under-funded for decades and no thanks from the ACT govt which doesn't support the service.

Most of Vic's regional services operate on lines with very little if not any freight to compete with, in comparison the bulk of the NSW regional services operate on busy freight lines adding to their complexity.

Vic is sole funding the Overland for now and only in place for a short time to date, we both know this will not last and expect this arrangement to be terminated within 2 years or so when a truncated arrangement will be put in place.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The Bathurst Bullets introduction put some extra strain on the Endeavor fleet and the said introduction some time this year of another service is not going to help either.
a6et

I thought that was cancelled after the Shooters party retained the seat of Orange?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The new regional fleet will replace endeavour services on regional runs obviously. The hunter line is a suburban run however and is likely to stay with the endeavours which are already maintained in the area. It makes sense since why would you want your new regional fleet to get bogged down in doing suburban type services. If the government was truly going to replace these suburban services with the new fleet they would have built 2 car sets.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sims...you simply cannot bang on about the distance the NSWGR operates its trains when in two of your examples the train only operates ONCE a week...or even LESS Exclamation

The only trains that operate daily in your example are Dubbo...and Armidale/Moree because the train splits along the way.

The other examples you cite are on the main north and main south so have to operate if you guys are going to keep operating an inter-capital service.

Victoria's services may be shorter distance...but we will soon be operating up to 5 services on our long distance lines...EVERY DAY.

https://regionalrailrevival.vic.gov.au/

Moreover...5 services a day will NOT be in operation for the sole use of 'pensioners'...and if NSWGR is in such a parlous state that only the aged and retirees are using your system...perhaps the whole of your system needs a root and branch review.

Also...as Victoria is solely responsible for the operation of the Overland...you can add that 727 Km journey into your example as well.

Mike.
The Vinelander

I didn't say NSW was better. I said comparing vline to NSW is wrong and the distances are important in differentiating nsw and Victorian services. The service level is much higher on an xplorer and xpt then it is on a vlocity. The train takes most of the day to get out to most of the destinations in NSW. This isn't the case with vline services. Most of vlines services outside of the 4 I mentioned would be the equivalent to an electric train trip to gosford, newcastle, wollongong or katoomba and so not even remotely comparable to what NSW provides.

The overland is still not run by vline and so I will not add it to my examples. If Vline take over the service then you would still only have 4 services a week over such a distance vs the 88 services a week that NSW provide over similar or longer distances in a week
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The new regional fleet will replace endeavour services on regional runs obviously. The hunter line is a suburban run however and is likely to stay with the endeavours which are already maintained in the area. It makes sense since why would you want your new regional fleet to get bogged down in doing suburban type services. If the government was truly going to replace these suburban services with the new fleet they would have built 2 car sets.
simstrain
So where will the Endeavour and assume converted Explorer fleet operate post new trains?

- Hunter
- South Coast
- Moss Vale
- Bathurst Bullet

Basically boosting the fleet numbers with the the converted Explorer fleet. Hard to see that the new trains will be needed on the above with these extra what 23 odd cars are made available for commuter services also noting that currently no B cars are available in the END fleet, so thats 5-6 trains there that will get an instant 50% increase in seating.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The bullet will definitely get the new train for it's multiple proposed services. Maybe the endeavours could do Bathurst to Lithgow shuttles.

The southern highlands will most likely get the new train since there is some distance to cover to moss vale from Campbelltown (90+ km's).

Bomaderry could continue to use endeavours since the trip is only 34km's from kiama. Eventually this line will get electrified and then the endeavours can get replaced.

The hunter line I believe will retain the endeavours because the new regional train is most definitely not replacing the hunter sets and there aren't enough hunter sets to service the hunter line by themselves. The endeavours with plenty of spares available will be perfect to fill that roll for 20+ more years.

The endeavours will be fine on short runs for 20 more years with enough spares available.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

The bullet will definitely get the new train for it's multiple proposed services. Maybe the endeavours could do Bathurst to Lithgow shuttles.

The southern highlands will most likely get the new train since there is some distance to cover to moss vale from Campbelltown (90+ km's).

Bomaderry could continue to use endeavours since the trip is only 34km's from kiama. Eventually this line will get electrified and then the endeavours can get replaced.

The hunter line I believe will retain the endeavours because the new regional train is most definitely not replacing the hunter sets and there aren't enough hunter sets to service the hunter line by themselves. The endeavours with plenty of spares available will be perfect to fill that roll for 20+ more years.

The endeavours will be fine on short runs for 20 more years with enough spares available.
simstrain
Sims, just to clarify, are these your ideas, speculation, or does this come from a reputable source?
  a6et Minister for Railways

The Bathurst Bullets introduction put some extra strain on the Endeavor fleet and the said introduction some time this year of another service is not going to help either.

I thought that was cancelled after the Shooters party retained the seat of Orange?
djf01
I have not heard of any cancellation, but its likely possible though.  The big issue though is how are they going to provide the service unless the current service is rescheduled and it does a further return service a day, that's possible I think, even possible to run the evening service ex Sydney to OGE and have it run back the next morning taking up the original bullets TT from BX
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Sims, just to clarify, are these your ideas, speculation, or does this come from a reputable source?
NSWRcars

speculation. The hunter line is a newcastle suburban service essentially and there most definitely won't be enough hunter class carriages to provide these services on their own post new regional fleet. Bathurst has been promised 2 trains in the morning and with Goulburn pushing for more services. Using endeavours on the hunter line frees up the new rolling stock to provide these services. Kiama to Bomaderry is only 30 kilometres and so why waste a new regional set for something that there will be plenty of endeavours to do post new fleet.

It's not like the endeavours are on their last legs and with conversion of Xplorers carriages into endeavours you could easily extend the life of these trains at least 20 years.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Sims, just to clarify, are these your ideas, speculation, or does this come from a reputable source?

speculation. The hunter line is a newcastle suburban service essentially and there most definitely won't be enough hunter class carriages to provide these services on their own post new regional fleet. Bathurst has been promised 2 trains in the morning and with Goulburn pushing for more services. Using endeavours on the hunter line frees up the new rolling stock to provide these services. Kiama to Bomaderry is only 30 kilometres and so why waste a new regional set for something that there will be plenty of endeavours to do post new fleet.

It's not like the endeavours are on their last legs and with conversion of Xplorers carriages into endeavours you could easily extend the life of these trains at least 20 years.
simstrain
There's one set up here that needs looking at, as it has a fair amount of issues when starting from platforms that have a grade on them, slips badly. When I am in this set, and the weather if ok, the drivers still tend to nurse it from standing starts at Metford, Beresfield and Warabrook on the up, Warathah, Thornton and Vic st on the down.  When there is dew or rain around they have further issues.

Have not been on any recently though so it could be under repairs, as there is usually a few spare in the off peak, have not seen the one in original paint scheme for a while so it could also be away in shops,
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Sims, just to clarify, are these your ideas, speculation, or does this come from a reputable source?

speculation.
simstrain
Cheers Sims, I am trying to digest what this new Regional Fleet is actually intended to replace. The second Bathurst Bullet was announced by Bathurst MP Paul Toole, now Minister for Regional Transport and Roads, for introduction NEXT YEAR which is well in advance of the Momentum Trains deployment. It seems to me that some of the numbers just don’t add up.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The Bathurst Bullets introduction put some extra strain on the Endeavor fleet and the said introduction some time this year of another service is not going to help either.

I thought that was cancelled after the Shooters party retained the seat of Orange?
I have not heard of any cancellation, but its likely possible though.
a6et

I was joking.  

Much as I hate to say it, history suggests @sims is correct about the endeavours probably running down to Bomaderry till 2060.

As with the DEB sets, they had to keep running after the endeavour order was hijacked to make the Xplorers.  U-boats ran for 50+ years IIRC.  Sputnick sets continued into the 90s because the T set order was hijacked to make the G-Sets.

In this case, the replacement Endeavours have been hijacked to make the Bathurst Bullet and the Orange ... well it will get a name soon enough.

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