XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I will weigh in...

Methinks the BH service will be operating the XPLs. Why?

Planners will have pressure put on them from politicians to treat westerners as second class citizens and will probably want to keep them on the older trains for as long as possible to enable the new trains to be used in more visible, more important electoral corridors. I know this thought has crossed through your own minds fellow posters....

Whatever their motivations, the replacement XPT service will be stretched for parts and availability.... and suffer teething problems.

Better to keep the BH service chugging along with a proven platform. The westerners are hardy and resilient people and would probably already have wagered they won't get the new trains, no matter how many of the CAFs arre purchased and put on the other tracks.

The only way they will see the CAF is to catch rubber to Dubbo.

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  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The bullet will definitely get the new train for it's multiple proposed services. Maybe the endeavours could do Bathurst to Lithgow shuttles.

The southern highlands will most likely get the new train since there is some distance to cover to moss vale from Campbelltown (90+ km's).

Bomaderry could continue to use endeavours since the trip is only 34km's from kiama. Eventually this line will get electrified and then the endeavours can get replaced.

The hunter line I believe will retain the endeavours because the new regional train is most definitely not replacing the hunter sets and there aren't enough hunter sets to service the hunter line by themselves. The endeavours with plenty of spares available will be perfect to fill that roll for 20+ more years.

The endeavours will be fine on short runs for 20 more years with enough spares available.
simstrain
Bomaderry won't be sparked anytime soon, especially if there are spare Endeavour sets lying around. Sparking is something you do at the end of the serviceable life of a diesel fleet or allow expansion elsewhere. If anything as your explanation seems to leave alot of spare END's, perhaps at extra set will be relocated on the South Coast to boost frequency which will go far to appease the locals for a few years.

Agree with reduced use per week due to a larger fleet, the Endeavour/XPL fleet will be with us likely to 2030'ish.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I will weigh in...

Methinks the BH service will be operating the XPLs. Why?

Planners will have pressure put on them from politicians to treat westerners as second class citizens and will probably want to keep them on the older trains for as long as possible to enable the new trains to be used in more visible, more important electoral corridors. I know this thought has crossed through your own minds fellow posters....

Whatever their motivations, the replacement XPT service will be stretched for parts and availability.... and suffer teething problems.

Better to keep the BH service chugging along with a proven platform. The westerners are hardy and resilient people and would probably already have wagered they won't get the new trains, no matter how many of the CAFs arre purchased and put on the other tracks.

The only way they will see the CAF is to catch rubber to Dubbo.
ANR
Mmmm, no.

The CAF's will obviously be trialled close to home to enable commissioning and testing without a 1000km rescue being required, but once free to roam the state and interstate they will. This won't take long assuming few issues.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner





An explanation of sorts: No CAFs in the Hunter.  

Also notice a short unit will overnight at Grafton, Armidale gets a long unit.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller





An explanation of sorts: No CAFs in the Hunter.  

Also notice a short unit will overnight at Grafton, Armidale gets a long unit.
djf01
This suggests “like for like” replacement of all existing XPT/XPL/END trains, except perhaps in the Hunter.

The Dubbo overnight totals only look high because they include maintenance spares – operational Short Regionals to Dubbo must return to Sydney for overnight, unless swapped out with a spare.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

The stabling table and locations tells us that the Short Unit (Intercity) replace END trains on their existing routes; the Short Unit (Regional) replace XPL trains, and the Long Unit replace XPT. It also tells us that there will be 2 Griffith and 1 Broken Hill per week. Only 5 of the 9 operational long trains stable overnight, so there are 4 long trains working overnight services each night.

Every day there is to be 1 Long Unit and 1 Short Unit (intercity) travel to Dubbo to stable overnight and presumably cycle through the maintenance depot. Since there a 3 train types and one of each is stabled in Dubbo as maintenance spares, the Short Unit (Regional) must cycle through Dubbo via a day return from Sydney.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Bomaderry won't be sparked anytime soon, especially if there are spare Endeavour sets lying around.
RTT_Rules
My guess is there won’t be many spare Endeavour lying around, as Sell and Parker will quickly deal with them. Note a CAF stabled in Wollongong each night.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I will weigh in...

Methinks the BH service will be operating the XPLs. Why?

Planners will have pressure put on them from politicians to treat westerners as second class citizens and will probably want to keep them on the older trains for as long as possible to enable the new trains to be used in more visible, more important electoral corridors. I know this thought has crossed through your own minds fellow posters....

Whatever their motivations, the replacement XPT service will be stretched for parts and availability.... and suffer teething problems.

Better to keep the BH service chugging along with a proven platform. The westerners are hardy and resilient people and would probably already have wagered they won't get the new trains, no matter how many of the CAFs arre purchased and put on the other tracks.

The only way they will see the CAF is to catch rubber to Dubbo.
ANR

Broken Hill will get the new train ANR. Anything that is serviced by a XPT or xplorer will get the new train and there is no debate on that. The XPT is already in the situation of being stretched for parts and that is on a 40 year old train and so your argument falls short when applying to a new train which will have ample access to new parts. We all expect some teething problems but the XPT and Xplorer also had them.

The endeavours do a multitude of different types of runs and the new fleet might be unable to do the shorter hunter and bomaderry runs if extra new services are to be run to/from Orange, Goulburn, Bathurst and Griffith. The campbelltown to moss vale shuttles could continue to use endeavours / converted Xplorers which would put less strain on the new fleet but I suspect those service will get the new train.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Bomaderry won't be sparked anytime soon, especially if there are spare Endeavour sets lying around. Sparking is something you do at the end of the serviceable life of a diesel fleet or allow expansion elsewhere. If anything as your explanation seems to leave alot of spare END's, perhaps at extra set will be relocated on the South Coast to boost frequency which will go far to appease the locals for a few years.

Agree with reduced use per week due to a larger fleet, the Endeavour/XPL fleet will be with us likely to 2030'ish.
RTT_Rules

There has been some talk about the electrification going ahead sooner then later. That would actually make a complete replacement of the entire fleet much more viable. 90% of the line is electrified and an extra 30km's should really be a no brainer. Larger passing loops are going ahead which will make this even more viable.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

.

》The endeavours do a multitude of different types of runs and the new fleet might be unable to do the shorter hunter and bomaderry runs if extra new services are to be run to/from Orange, Goulburn, Bathurst and Griffith. The campbelltown to moss vale shuttles could continue to use endeavours / converted Xplorers which would put less strain on the new fleet but I suspect those service will get the new train.

Not happening @Sims.  All Hunter services will be 2 car.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Vic doesn't even have intrastate jet passenger services due to its limited size, NSW does. The only part of the state of significant distance from Melbourne is Mildura with a population of a large town and very little in between for 300km or half way back to Melbourne.
RTT_Rules

Actually all three carriers fly to Mildura;...Rex, QANTAS & Virgin, so it's all the more galling that for a regional city apparently not deserving of a passenger train it has three domestic carriers servicing in from Melbourne....at very pricey airline fares of course.

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

As a side point there is no more NSWGR which was made defunct back in the 80's or earlier when it become firstly PTCNSW and then SRA, Railcorp, goodness knows what other brands as well.
a6et

As you say...railways in NSW are definitely suffering an identity crisis, therefore I'm certain the NSWGR is a more than appropriate name to use to describe their function...at least until its naming conventions eventually settle down for a few years...Smile

Mike.
  a6et Minister for Railways

.

》The endeavours do a multitude of different types of runs and the new fleet might be unable to do the shorter hunter and bomaderry runs if extra new services are to be run to/from Orange, Goulburn, Bathurst and Griffith. The campbelltown to moss vale shuttles could continue to use endeavours / converted Xplorers which would put less strain on the new fleet but I suspect those service will get the new train.

Not happening @Sims.  All Hunter services will be 2 car.
djf01
Some of the peak hour services which are beween 0700 - 0817 are getting quite full with standing room only, same would happen in the afternoon peaks as well. The fleet is basically stretched in those hours. I would suggest that in the future a couple of extra sets will be needed meaning 4 car trains will be needed, including extra services.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

.

》The endeavours do a multitude of different types of runs and the new fleet might be unable to do the shorter hunter and bomaderry runs if extra new services are to be run to/from Orange, Goulburn, Bathurst and Griffith. The campbelltown to moss vale shuttles could continue to use endeavours / converted Xplorers which would put less strain on the new fleet but I suspect those service will get the new train.

Not happening @Sims.  All Hunter services will be 2 car.
djf01

What is not happening. I know that all hunter line sets are 2 car services currently which is why I'm suggesting that the endeavour fleet will continue on this line. These services may expand beyond 2 cars in the future but they are for all intents and purposes a suburban type service rather then a regional service.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller


Referring back to the Nominal Fleet Distribution table posted above, the twitter comment about intercity sets sitting in Dubbo and “deadhead runs” is wrong because one of those sets is nominated as a maintenance spare. In practice unforseen events of course may necessitate “deadhead runs”.

And on the really off-topic side-note, New South Wales Government Railways hasn’t existed under that name since the 1930’s. Common usage abbreviation NSWGR in recent years loosely refers to the NSW government run railways.


  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Vic doesn't even have intrastate jet passenger services due to its limited size, NSW does. The only part of the state of significant distance from Melbourne is Mildura with a population of a large town and very little in between for 300km or half way back to Melbourne.

Actually all three carriers fly to Mildura;...Rex, QANTAS & Virgin, so it's all the more galling that for a regional city apparently not deserving of a passenger train it has three domestic carriers servicing in from Melbourne....at very pricey airline fares of course.

Mike.
The Vinelander

That is economic reality and nothing at all to do with not deserving a passenger train.
  a6et Minister for Railways


Referring back to the Nominal Fleet Distribution table posted above, the twitter comment about intercity sets sitting in Dubbo and “deadhead runs” is wrong because one of those sets is nominated as a maintenance spare. In practice unforseen events of course may necessitate “deadhead runs”.

And on the really off-topic side-note, New South Wales Government Railways hasn’t existed under that name since the 1930’s. Common usage abbreviation NSWGR in recent years loosely refers to the NSW government run railways.

NSWRcars
Not sure that you are correct re non existence or use of the New South Wales Government Railways title, as I certainly have still have books printed in the 60's with that tag, although in much of the general internal use the abbreviation was used mostly, but the full title existed until the Public Transport Commission NSW was formed, but it too was abbreviated to PTCNSW.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Not sure that you are correct re non existence or use of the New South Wales Government Railways title, as I certainly have still have books printed in the 60's with that tag, although in much of the general internal use the abbreviation was used mostly, but the full title existed until the Public Transport Commission NSW was formed, but it too was abbreviated to PTCNSW.
a6et
Colin I think you’ll find it was the Department of Railways NSW, but who knows what printing didn’t get changed in the books. I’m not sure, maybe you could look it up?



Back to the XPT replacement. The allocation table suggests only 3 CAF overnight runs compared to 4 for the XPT. I suppose there will be timetable changes since the Long Regional units have to cycle through Dubbo. There has been no mention of sleeping cars, and who could sleep on a railcar, anyway?
  a6et Minister for Railways

Not sure that you are correct re non existence or use of the New South Wales Government Railways title, as I certainly have still have books printed in the 60's with that tag, although in much of the general internal use the abbreviation was used mostly, but the full title existed until the Public Transport Commission NSW was formed, but it too was abbreviated to PTCNSW.
Colin I think you’ll find it was the Department of Railways NSW, but who knows what printing didn’t get changed in the books. I’m not sure, maybe you could look it up?



Back to the XPT replacement. The allocation table suggests only 3 CAF overnight runs compared to 4 for the XPT. I suppose there will be timetable changes since the Long Regional units have to cycle through Dubbo. There has been no mention of sleeping cars, and who could sleep on a railcar, anyway?
NSWRcars
From what I see there are different titles to different publications, and to which branch that they were directed towards. WTT's were Department of Railways, and from Traffic Branch, others similar but from Mechanical Branch, I know I have somewhere one dated in the 40's and another in the 50's that shows the New South Wales Government Railways, but a lot of stuff still in boxes from our move.

While sleeping cars may not figure a lot in the plans, I would think not having them on the long distance trains could well be an issue that could turn some people off going overnight on trains, to me the Sydney - Melbourne and NCL services besides the Grafton o/night stabler needs to have sleeping accommodation on them, that is at least 4 sets needed,

I wonder if the renaming of the XPT Meeks Road Maintenance centre going to be Sydenham shows they will be doing a fair degree of general maintenance as well as Dubbo.  I still am having trouble getting my head around these terms applicable for the different routes and services such as CAF

Also I am wondering if the Moree service could be a separate service to the Armidale one, or are they going to be same types? There seems to be some sort of misfiring to me. They will be long trips in many trains with the noise issues if they are DMU styles.

How many services can be served to Canberra when it is only shown with 1 midget allocation.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

While sleeping cars may not figure a lot in the plans, I would think not having them on the long distance trains could well be an issue that could turn some people off going overnight on trains, to me the Sydney - Melbourne and NCL services besides the Grafton o/night stabler needs to have sleeping accommodation on them, that is at least 4 sets needed,

I wonder if the renaming of the XPT Meeks Road Maintenance centre going to be Sydenham shows they will be doing a fair degree of general maintenance as well as Dubbo.  I still am having trouble getting my head around these terms applicable for the different routes and services such as CAF

Also I am wondering if the Moree service could be a separate service to the Armidale one, or are they going to be same types? There seems to be some sort of misfiring to me. They will be long trips in many trains with the noise issues if they are DMU styles.

How many services can be served to Canberra when it is only shown with 1 midget allocation.
a6et
I agree re no sleeping cars will turn people off.

Regarding Meeks Road/Sydenham, the Regional Rail FAQ states “The contract also covers upgrading, operating and maintaining the Sydenham Maintenance Centre to use as a metropolitan base for refuelling, provisioning and corrective maintenance”. So I read that as Momentum Trains taking over this depot and using it for running repairs, with the Dubbo facility used for scheduled maintenance and overhauls.

As for the Canberra allocation, the table shows 1 overnight stable in Canberra, but there may be (and surely are) other sets allocated that stable at Sydenham or Eveleigh.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Also I am wondering if the Moree service could be a separate service to the Armidale one, or are they going to be same types? There seems to be some sort of misfiring to me. They will be long trips in many trains with the noise issues if they are DMU styles.

How many services can be served to Canberra when it is only shown with 1 midget allocation.
a6et

The new train is a Diesel electric multiple unit with the engine at the end of the carriage and not in the centre like the xplorer's and endeavours are and so there shouldn't be a noise issue. The other thing is that only 2 of the 3 units or 4 of the 6 will actually have an engine.

https://www.mtu-online.com/hybrid/
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Back to the XPT replacement. The allocation table suggests only 3 CAF overnight runs compared to 4 for the XPT.
NSWRcars
I got that part wrong. The 6 stabled long trains includes the non-operational maintenance spare. So there should be 9-5 = 4 overnight runs, same as XPT now. I wonder if there is any chance the long trains might get fitted out with a sleeping car?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Back to the XPT replacement. The allocation table suggests only 3 CAF overnight runs compared to 4 for the XPT.
I got that part wrong. The 6 stabled long trains includes the non-operational maintenance spare. So there should be 9-5 = 4 overnight runs, same as XPT now. I wonder if there is any chance the long trains might get fitted out with a sleeping car?
NSWRcars

I believe they will get more of a qantas skybed seat instead for first class.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

I believe they will get more of a qantas skybed seat instead for first class.
simstrain
There's no mention of that in the Regional Fleet FAQ. Only Premium Class 2 + 1 seating.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Too bad the brand new trains have no sleeper accommodation. Goes to show what contempt our politicians have for the paying passenger. Return to sender...

Getting back to what I said earlier, if people around the darling floodplains have had the river taken away from them, what makes you think they will ever see a CAF?

From the number of sets I have seen published in the tables, I am even more certain that any technical or breakdown problems on OTHER smaller set routes, will require backups. In fact, this is a problem across the entire NSW Trains network.

I am yet to be convinced that BH will see anything other than XPLs or rubber, which again is not a bad thing. If they put up with PH101 for a long time, they can make do with the XPL.

The NSW election is over, time for the politicians to stop playing pretend...

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