XPT Replacement Discussion

 
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
The current seats in the xpt's aren't bad. It is the spacing in front and behind that is the issue. If the person in front wants to recline their seat. it inclines right back onto my knees at present. We will have to do an xpt trip just so I can show you, r44 and others my problem with the spacing.
"jedimasterc"


Economy would be a no-change situation, except a little more legroom.

I did however like the sleepers in day tripper mode. lots of leg room and side room. and a comfortable louinge to sit in as well.
"jedimasterc"


Indeed? They do look fairly comfortable - how's the dunny?

These suggestions of mine are only my theories on if nothing is done to the current rail line. ie no high speed rail or my personal favourite, maglev.
"jedimasterc"


Same here. This is assuming the only thing that happens is the feds fixing the current line and doing nothing else.

Would it be viable to run an XPT-only (or for that matter, tilt-only) fleet?

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  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara

IMO the only real way you are going to get HSR down the east coast any time soon is if the powers that be decide they want to retain Sydney (Kingsford Smith) Airport as an international hub.  If they build a second airport, then naturally international traffic would be the first to be shifted out there as it is less time sensitive than domestic.  Building a Brisbane-Gold Coast-Far North Coast-Newcastle-Sydney-Canberra-Wagga Wagga-Albury-Melbourne HSR service would cut regular public transport movements at Sydney Airport by about half (note the stations I have chose are just ones with air links to Sydney, also cutting Gold Coast, Far North Coast, Newcastle, Wagga Wagga and Albury from the list has a fairly minimal impact on that half-ish figure).  So if you didn't want to build the second airport now (it will be needed eventually anyway) this would be a more expensive option.
"PDCL"


the point is sydney airport has the capacity according to them until 2045 or something if they make improvements. what we need to do is to force everyone travelling to brisbane and melbourne onto the HSR for sydney freeing up capacity in kingsford smith as it no longer has to cater for the 4th busiest air route in the world (syd-mel) and 10th busiest in asia pacific (syd-bri) (my figures may be a bit out of date but none the less supports my arguement). this allows for more international flights in and out of syd (australias international hub)

back to the train. the dtt in qld isn't that bad. build standard guage ones and ship them here. would they raplace the XPTs or Xplorers. their runs arn't that long compared to XPTs but they could be modified or we could use my original plan for a BR cass 221. their both good trains. the 221 is cramped none the less and has its fair share of problems with its passengers and i have no information on the ddt except its much better than anything they try to offer here.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
back to the train. the dtt in qld isn't that bad. build standard guage ones and ship them here. would they raplace the XPTs or Xplorers. their runs arn't that long compared to XPTs but they could be modified or we could use my original plan for a BR cass 221. their both good trains. the 221 is cramped none the less and has its fair share of problems with its passengers and i have no information on the ddt except its much better than anything they try to offer here.
"fixitguy"


They'd replace the XPTs, unless it has only one loco at one end and a DT (or DVT, or cabbage, or equiv.) at the other end; then it might be viable to also replace the Xploders which could be cascaded to CityRail use.

Sure, they may not have the longest runs, but as long as they're kitted out for it, they can do the XPT runs. The question is whether tilting is of any use given the state of the track.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
back to the train. the dtt in qld isn't that bad. build standard guage ones and ship them here. would they raplace the XPTs or Xplorers. their runs arn't that long compared to XPTs but they could be modified or we could use my original plan for a BR cass 221. their both good trains. the 221 is cramped none the less and has its fair share of problems with its passengers and i have no information on the ddt except its much better than anything they try to offer here.
"fixitguy"


They'd replace the XPTs, unless it has only one loco at one end and a DT (or DVT, or cabbage, or equiv.) at the other end; then it might be viable to also replace the Xploders which could be cascaded to CityRail use.

Sure, they may not have the longest runs, but as long as they're kitted out for it, they can do the XPT runs. The question is whether tilting is of any use given the state of the track.
"Watson374"


tilting did imporve canberra runs when they trialled the X200 and a train was developed by some firm to cater for the track (although its probably worse now) if we resurrect that train (someone should have the blueprints somewhere or something) i would be ideal for our conditions with some slight modifications for safety/comfort/passenger demands. this does answwer the question. yes tilting did improve runs back then and is probably going to do the same now unless there is a drastic case of track wear in the  many years after the trial.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Loco haul the cars while the 2000's get a complete overhaul, hire some CLPs and EL's.
Rail Corp always go overboard when they buy new trains, they would probably buy Explorer like fitted out Hunter cars.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
Loco haul the cars while the 2000's get a complete overhaul, hire some CLPs and EL's.
Rail Corp always go overboard when they buy new trains, they would probably buy Explorer like fitted out Hunter cars.
"Junction box"


true. what we need is to rebuild the tracks first,then we can think about tilting the powercars and carriages and or replacing the trains. whats with the new designs everytime. just borrow one off some other country and modify it for our climate. easy as pie. an existing design with a bigger cooling system.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
I take it that none of you have ever been on the diesel tilt train in Qld,the showers are that spacious that you could hold a party in one. The DTT could be made for standard guage in Auatralia. RAYMOND
"raymond"

Only for a look, not for a ride. I thought that design would be good in NSW but when I read about the NSW trial of the Tilt Train it didn't get going with this I found from NSW Government in 1998:

An inquiry into the tilt train and other high speed rail options for NSW has
been launched by the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Public Works. The
inquiry has been initiated as a result of the new Queensland Tilt Train
project. Chairman Paul Crittenden MP said, “The Committee believes the
Queensland project represents an important development in rail technology in
Australia. Past attempts to match this kind of technology to the NSW rail
network have been abandoned because of concerns that the cost of the project
outweighs the benefits. The Committee believes that it is time to assess the
options for existing NSW rail services.” It believes an examination of tilt
train technology is appropriate for existing interurban services in NSW,
particularly routes such as Sydney-Central Coast-Newcastle, Sydney-Blue
Mountains and Sydney-Illawarra where the current length of the trip inhibits
economic opportunities and affects commuter quality of life. The Committee
will examine the feasibility of tilt and other train technology for NSW
interurban and regional rail networks. It will also consider the state of
existing rolling stock, possible track realignments to improve travel times
and line capacity issues.

It will not consider the Sydney-Canberra corridor where the Very High Speed
Train proposal is being developed. The Committee called for submissions in
late November 1997 and held public hearings in late January. Tilt technology
is currently in use in Italy, Sweden, Japan, Spain, Canada and Germany.


Times have changed!
  raymond Deputy Commissioner

Location: Gladstone, Queensland
The DTT is better for long distances ,not short comuter trains to Newcastle etc.

Brisbane to Cairns1718Km, Brisbane to Sydney1010Km,new sunlander DTT will have sleeping coaches.




    RAYMOND
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
The DTT is better for long distances ,not short comuter trains to Newcastle etc. Brisbane to Cairns1718Km, Brisbane to Sydney1010Km,new sunlander DTT will have sleeping coaches. RAYMOND
"raymond"


Newcastle will be run by trains under sparks anyway...

And FIG - gotcha on the tilting. Worth it for the curves, I'd say.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
The DTT is better for long distances ,not short comuter trains to Newcastle etc. Brisbane to Cairns1718Km, Brisbane to Sydney1010Km,new sunlander DTT will have sleeping coaches. RAYMOND
"raymond"


Newcastle will be run by trains under sparks anyway...

And FIG - gotcha on the tilting. Worth it for the curves, I'd say.
"Watson374"


we should really straighten the tracks and remove the victorian stuff. no need to preserve them . then maybe we can start considering not having tilt trains. but ordering new tilt trains should be cheaper. 1 billion dollars to get new tilt trains, replacement endeavor/Xplorer and V Set raplacement. that should be enough to pay for the expenses. just get UGL to manufacture OSCars with new seats and a variation of queenslands tilt trains built to standard guage and more hunters that can be converted to run longer distances and also to replace the Endevaors. fixitguys NSW Trains fleet cheap renewal solution. existing designs just upgraded a bit.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I would not replace the V sets with tilts. The V sets should be replaced with a true DDIU under sparks, but apart from that, yeah.

If we're running the XPT2 as a DTT, are we going for one loco or two?

FIG: Xplorer replacement can be discussed tonight, when I'll start a thread for it - or you can start it first. One of the big questions is whether or not we want to use only one type of train (in varying consists) for both Xploder and XPT runs.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
I would not replace the V sets with tilts. The V sets should be replaced with a true DDIU under sparks, but apart from that, yeah.

If we're running the XPT2 as a DTT, are we going for one loco or two?

FIG: Xplorer replacement can be discussed tonight, when I'll start a thread for it - or you can start it first. One of the big questions is whether or not we want to use only one type of train (in varying consists) for both Xploder and XPT runs.
"Watson374"


we could do that. XPT with 2 locos, Xplorers with 1. What i was saying is to get UGL to manufacture more OSCars with better seats to replace the V Sets. Existing OSCars can go on suburban runs with toilets locked. and then we get the ddt from QLD to replace XPTs.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I would not replace the V sets with tilts. The V sets should be replaced with a true DDIU under sparks, but apart from that, yeah.

If we're running the XPT2 as a DTT, are we going for one loco or two?

FIG: Xplorer replacement can be discussed tonight, when I'll start a thread for it - or you can start it first. One of the big questions is whether or not we want to use only one type of train (in varying consists) for both Xploder and XPT runs.
"Watson374"


we could do that. XPT with 2 locos, Xplorers with 1. What i was saying is to get UGL to manufacture more OSCars with better seats to replace the V Sets. Existing OSCars can go on suburban runs with toilets locked. and then we get the ddt from QLD to replace XPTs.
"fixitguy"


I don't like that, because I see the OSCars as the perfect suburban but a terrible interurban, so we'll have to agree to differ on that.

So, an XPT2 consist of two power cars and seven trailers and an Xploder 2 consist of one power car, a driving trailer and however many trailers required? Hmm, could work. Then again, it might be more worthwhile to build them all with one monster power car at one end and a cabbage (cab-baggage) at the other end.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
I would not replace the V sets with tilts. The V sets should be replaced with a true DDIU under sparks, but apart from that, yeah.

If we're running the XPT2 as a DTT, are we going for one loco or two?

FIG: Xplorer replacement can be discussed tonight, when I'll start a thread for it - or you can start it first. One of the big questions is whether or not we want to use only one type of train (in varying consists) for both Xploder and XPT runs.
"Watson374"


we could do that. XPT with 2 locos, Xplorers with 1. What i was saying is to get UGL to manufacture more OSCars with better seats to replace the V Sets. Existing OSCars can go on suburban runs with toilets locked. and then we get the ddt from QLD to replace XPTs.
"fixitguy"


I don't like that, because I see the OSCars as the perfect suburban but a terrible interurban, so we'll have to agree to differ on that.

So, an XPT2 consist of two power cars and seven trailers and an Xploder 2 consist of one power car, a driving trailer and however many trailers required? Hmm, could work. Then again, it might be more worthwhile to build them all with one monster power car at one end and a cabbage (cab-baggage) at the other end.
"Watson374"


ok so new V Sets from scratch. Xploder(haha) 2 would then be the same as the XPT 2. they both need to differ to meet different requirements. XPT to Bri, Mel and anywhere else that is far. Xploder 2 with a downrated engne for Can and closer places if you are suggesting we have one massively rated powercar. but the problem is what it fails (hoping not). the beauty of two is that if one fails there always another 1. but one would do us well.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
The current seats in the xpt's aren't bad. It is the spacing in front and behind that is the issue. If the person in front wants to recline their seat. it inclines right back onto my knees at present. We will have to do an xpt trip just so I can show you, r44 and others my problem with the spacing.
"jedimasterc"


Economy would be a no-change situation, except a little more legroom.

I did however like the sleepers in day tripper mode. lots of leg room and side room. and a comfortable louinge to sit in as well.
"jedimasterc"


Indeed? They do look fairly comfortable - how's the dunny?

These suggestions of mine are only my theories on if nothing is done to the current rail line. ie no high speed rail or my personal favourite, maglev.
"jedimasterc"


Same here. This is assuming the only thing that happens is the feds fixing the current line and doing nothing else.

Would it be viable to run an XPT-only (or for that matter, tilt-only) fleet?
"Watson374"


They don't have a seperate dunny. still have to use the public toilet on the train.

plus because of my height I always travel first class. That lack of space was in first class. The seats themselves aren't the problem it is the legroom or lack thereof.
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
forget about hsr because that is a discussion for another thread. we are talking about an xpt replacement.

In regards to the tilt train. How wide are the qld tilt train and does anybody know how wide the x2000 test untis were?


  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
The current seats in the xpt's aren't bad. It is the spacing in front and behind that is the issue. If the person in front wants to recline their seat. it inclines right back onto my knees at present. We will have to do an xpt trip just so I can show you, r44 and others my problem with the spacing.
"jedimasterc"


Economy would be a no-change situation, except a little more legroom.

I did however like the sleepers in day tripper mode. lots of leg room and side room. and a comfortable louinge to sit in as well.
"jedimasterc"


Indeed? They do look fairly comfortable - how's the dunny?

These suggestions of mine are only my theories on if nothing is done to the current rail line. ie no high speed rail or my personal favourite, maglev.
"jedimasterc"


Same here. This is assuming the only thing that happens is the feds fixing the current line and doing nothing else.

Would it be viable to run an XPT-only (or for that matter, tilt-only) fleet?
"Watson374"


They don't have a seperate dunny. still have to use the public toilet on the train.

plus because of my height I always travel first class. That lack of space was in first class. The seats themselves aren't the problem it is the legroom or lack thereof.
"jedimasterc"


first class with bad leg room. unheard of.  so to sum it up. single power car + dvt or 2 powercars with 7 carriages in 3 class config with toitets and possible lounge. i should start drawing after my exams and assigments. (warning not a good drawer but none the less did graphics drawing for 2 years manadatory)
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
ok so new V Sets from scratch. Xploder(haha) 2 would then be the same as the XPT 2. they both need to differ to meet different requirements. XPT to Bri, Mel and anywhere else that is far. Xploder 2 with a downrated engne for Can and closer places if you are suggesting we have one massively rated powercar. but the problem is what it fails (hoping not). the beauty of two is that if one fails there always another 1. but one would do us well.
"fixitguy"


V sets from scratch, following true DDIU design. That's for another thread. Xploder replacements, hold your ideas until I create a thread just for that after I finish this.

They don't have a seperate dunny. still have to use the public toilet on the train.

plus because of my height I always travel first class. That lack of space was in first class. The seats themselves aren't the problem it is the legroom or lack thereof.
"jedimasterc"


Do they not have a unit in the sleepers between twinettes that has a shower and dunny? I'm pretty sure it's there - it's in the diagrams and all.

forget about hsr because that is a discussion for another thread. we are talking about an xpt replacement.
"jedimasterc"


Indeed - and we can create the thread later. I don't have the tilt figures to hand, I'm afraid. For the DTT, we can pop into the QLD forum and ask.


plus because of my height I always travel first class. That lack of space was in first class. The seats themselves aren't the problem it is the legroom or lack thereof.
"jedimasterc"


first class with bad leg room. unheard of.  so to sum it up. single power car + dvt or 2 powercars with 7 carriages in 3 class config with toitets and possible lounge. i should start drawing after my exams and assigments. (warning not a good drawer but none the less did graphics drawing for 2 years manadatory)
"fixitguy"


Except in NSW, of course.

For the XPT2, make it two power cars (top and tail), six-seven trailers (one First, two Business, one lounge/dining and three-four Economy OR two First, one Business, one lounge/dining and three-four Economy). Plus landside facilities at Sydney Terminal, Southern Cross and Roma St. Twice daily (one morning, one overnight).
  PDCL Chief Train Controller


Watson, this is for you...

We could even also supply landside showers.
"Watson374"


Not opposed to this, but doesn't need to be anything fancy either, something like airport showers as is.

A problem arises when the First beds convert back into a daysitter, as these appear less comfortable than a flatbed in Business. Would First be a night-only offering?

Assuming 11 hours to Melbourne, I'm thinking two trains a day each way - a morning train, leaving around 9:30am and arriving 8:30pm, and a night train, leaving 9:30pm and arriving 8:30am, or some slightly shifted variation thereof. Because there's an hour turnaround at each end, in theory it should be possible to run it using two sets per route, running back and forth, rotating sets in and out for maintenance.
"Watson374"


Cabin is a cabin, high end offering day or night.  One thought I had was to run the sets with 1st class only over night (so laying over  for approx 12hrs) and a Bus/Econ only service during the day, which has the added bonus of a decent maintenance window, but it necessitates 4 trains.  Alternatively conversion of the cabin during the day could have the bed fold up to become a comfy (leather?) lounge, again a twinette set-up, with bedding provided on request.  Fewer sets are needed, but given the tightness of the maintenance window things are going to be squeezy and you're working them hard, which AIUI is half the issue with the current XPT fleet.

I'm not entirely sure that First and Business should be made to eat in their cabins; somehow, it seems like a worker eating at his desk. I would suggest using the club half of the dining car for meals, but I suppose eating in privacy could work too.

For Economy, perhaps a croissant and cuppa on the seat-back tray-table. (Megabus in the UK has breakfast on their London-Glasgow sleeper service - interesting read.)
"Watson374"


Not keen on any service to economy, they have free wifi and power, what more do they want comped?  Again it comes down to target market, ultra-cheap is what we're hitting here, looking at 50% of an airfare.  As for 1st/Business, the idea I'm selling is to the seat/cabin service, I see no issue however with customers requesting to have their meal served in the lounge and reserving a place at a given time for that.

Then again, being a premium offering, does capacity really matter? If not, we'll go with the individual flatbeds.
"Watson374"


Not massively, would need to examine the economics closer though.  A standard business airfare (Qantas) Sydney to Melbourne is about $600 (non-sale), the first class option needs to come in at or below this, business class seat on the train should be about half this.  As I said economy should be half a normal fair (typically $125 with Qantas, non-sale), so our pricing structure is something like:
First Class Cabin - $550.00 (sale/early bird $500.00)
Business Class Seat - $250.00 (sale/early bird $225.00)
Economy Class Seat - $65.00 (sale/early bird $50.00)

Pensioner discounts etc, I don't think should be included in the stats per say.  Basically if the gov't wants to offer a discount, cool banana's, charge the customer the reduced rate and the balance to the government.  Now that can be a notional charge (as in no money changes hands), but just have the accounts balanced in such a way that the underlining profitability of the operation doesn't appear compromised because the gov't has ordered that all seats be filled with pensioners on discount.

Basically they are the sort of numbers we have to work with, if we can make the flat bed profitable with say 65% of the train full on average then great, otherwise we need a re-think.
  PDCL Chief Train Controller


And for everything else that is going on in this thread...

Tilt train is fine, but IIRC half the reason we didn't buy the X2000 tilt train off the Swede's was that our curves are so severe that the tilting mechanism provided little benefit.  So on that basis, if we are going to get tilt's, then we need to look at realignment anyway and it's doubtful that minor realignments are going to be massively cheaper than bigger ones.  The difference however is that minor realignments only really benefit our as yet non-existent tilt train, while more moderate or even major realignments benefit freight (which actually pays the bills), as well as allowing us to look at a broader range of replacement options.

They don't have a seperate dunny. still have to use the public toilet on the train.
"jedimasterc"


On this note, I actually don't think a separate dunny is required necessarily in each 1st class cabin, fitting in a shower and basin is more of a priority.  A private toilet would be nice, but the first thing I would ditch for space.

Speaking to the actual configuration of the rolling stock, 8-10 car sets seem to be the standard elsewhere (2 locos + 6-8 trailers), lets assume there is a good economic reason for this. As I've said before I favour:
night config (L-1-1-B-B-D-E-E-E-L)
day config (L-B-B-B-D-E-E-E-E-L)
Again, I think I've said this before, but the routes I'd suggest for these services are:
Day services
Brisbane-Sydney (1 service dep.9am-arr.9pm)
Canberra-Sydney (Hourly through day)
Melbourne-Sydney (1 service dep.9am-arr.9pm)
Sydney-Brisbane (1 service dep.9am-arr.9pm)
Sydney-Canberra (Hourly through day)
Sydney-Melbourne (1 service dep.9am-arr.9pm)
Night Services
Brisbane-Sydney (1 service dep.8pm-arr.8am)
Melbourne-Sydney (1 service dep.8pm-arr.8am)
Sydney-Brisbane (1 service dep.8pm-arr.8am)
Sydney-Melbourne (1 service dep.8pm-arr.8am)
Everything else Countrylink services I'd do with a DMU fleet...for which there is now a separate discussion.

Concerning the interurbans, I'd like to see a bit more of a mix, between something V-set like that stops a lot and something XPT like that runs like the flyer used to.  Something like Newy-Gos-Epp-Strath-SydT, as well as a similar type run to Wollongong (Gong-Wolli-SydT).  This idea would be same fare and single class set up as the IU, just a faster train that can cut the time down to something reasonable.  As for rolling stock, well Qld tilt is fine, there's an EMU version (2 sets) that runs to I think Rocky or Gladstone, then the DTT (another 2-sets) takes over for the run up to Cairns.  V-set replacement...umm, 2+2 OSCAR, but that's talk for another thread (actually back where this one came from).


  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Not opposed to this, but doesn't need to be anything fancy either, something like airport showers as is.
"PDCL"


Indeed - simple setup, relatively free of frilly pizzaz. Mainly targeted at Economy passengers who might be willing to sacrifice a little to get a good shower on arrival or before departure, and for Club/Business/First passengers who may not appreciate showering while hurtling down the line.

Cabin is a cabin, high end offering day or night.  One thought I had was to run the sets with 1st class only over night (so laying over  for approx 12hrs) and a Bus/Econ only service during the day, which has the added bonus of a decent maintenance window, but it necessitates 4 trains.  Alternatively conversion of the cabin during the day could have the bed fold up to become a comfy (leather?) lounge, again a twinette set-up, with bedding provided on request.  Fewer sets are needed, but given the tightness of the maintenance window things are going to be squeezy and you're working them hard, which AIUI is half the issue with the current XPT fleet.
"PDCL"


We're also doing the Brisbane service, so more trains really shouldn't be an issue, since it is a pretty bespoke order. I give slightly more preference to the idea of Business-only on day trains and First-only on night trains. (If so, they would be best branded as both being First Class, just day/night versions thereof.)

I suppose creating daysitters from First cabins could be done, just that the First/Business problem here is that a seat becoming a bed is usually better as a seat, and a bed becoming a seat is usually better as a bed.

The question we have to ask is: do we want a small, hardworking fleet or do we want a larger, ore spaced out fleet? If the maintenance and physical toughness of the fleet is up to scratch, a relatively small fleet of five to seven trains could do the two inter-capital runs. How the First and Business cars are marshalled into the consists should be drawn from there.

Not keen on any service to economy, they have free wifi and power, what more do they want comped?  Again it comes down to target market, ultra-cheap is what we're hitting here, looking at 50% of an airfare.  As for 1st/Business, the idea I'm selling is to the seat/cabin service, I see no issue however with customers requesting to have their meal served in the lounge and reserving a place at a given time for that.
"PDCL"


Fair enough, they can walk down to the dining car and get a pie if they want; and I suppose to-the-seat/cabin service is a worthwhile sell.

Not massively, would need to examine the economics closer though.  A standard business airfare (Qantas) Sydney to Melbourne is about $600 (non-sale), the first class option needs to come in at or below this, business class seat on the train should be about half this.  As I said economy should be half a normal fair (typically $125 with Qantas, non-sale), so our pricing structure is something like:
First Class Cabin - $550.00 (sale/early bird $500.00)
Business Class Seat - $250.00 (sale/early bird $225.00)
Economy Class Seat - $65.00 (sale/early bird $50.00)
"PDCL"


This makes a lot of sense.

Pensioner discounts etc, I don't think should be included in the stats per say.  Basically if the gov't wants to offer a discount, cool banana's, charge the customer the reduced rate and the balance to the government.  Now that can be a notional charge (as in no money changes hands), but just have the accounts balanced in such a way that the underlining profitability of the operation doesn't appear compromised because the gov't has ordered that all seats be filled with pensioners on discount.
"PDCL"


I completely agree. Hopefully, with relatively low fares, people will begin taking the train.

Basically they are the sort of numbers we have to work with, if we can make the flat bed profitable with say 65% of the train full on average then great, otherwise we need a re-think.
"PDCL"


That'll have to be stirred through the calculation wok, so we'll leave it open.

On this note, I actually don't think a separate dunny is required necessarily in each 1st class cabin, fitting in a shower and basin is more of a priority.  A private toilet would be nice, but the first thing I would ditch for space.
"PDCL"


I calculated that it would indeed be possible to just fit it in, but it would be a bit squeezy. Since this is a premium offering, I don't want showers to be shared across twinettes as they currently are. They're forking over good money for this.

Speaking to the actual configuration of the rolling stock, 8-10 car sets seem to be the standard elsewhere (2 locos + 6-8 trailers), lets assume there is a good economic reason for this. As I've said before I favour:
night config (L-1-1-B-B-D-E-E-E-L)
day config (L-B-B-B-D-E-E-E-E-L)
"PDCL"


Somehow, I think we only really need six or seven trailers, with either two First cars and one Business car, one First car and two Business cars or three Business cars; then the dining/club car and the three Economy cars.

Again, I think I've said this before, but the routes I'd suggest for these services are:

Day services
Brisbane-Sydney (1 service dep.9am-arr.9pm)
Canberra-Sydney (Hourly through day)
Melbourne-Sydney (1 service dep.9am-arr.9pm)
Sydney-Brisbane (1 service dep.9am-arr.9pm)
Sydney-Canberra (Hourly through day)
Sydney-Melbourne (1 service dep.9am-arr.9pm)
Night Services
Brisbane-Sydney (1 service dep.8pm-arr.8am)
Melbourne-Sydney (1 service dep.8pm-arr.8am)
Sydney-Brisbane (1 service dep.8pm-arr.8am)
Sydney-Melbourne (1 service dep.8pm-arr.8am)
"PDCL"


Works for me - the one-hour turnaround should be enough, but might get squeezy; but there's not much choice, besides building a larger fleet.

If we work off seven trains, that's 15 power cars and however many trailers required.
  PDCL Chief Train Controller

Indeed - simple setup, relatively free of frilly pizzaz. Mainly targeted at Economy passengers who might be willing to sacrifice a little to get a good shower on arrival or before departure, and for Club/Business/First passengers who may not appreciate showering while hurtling down the line.

I calculated that it would indeed be possible to just fit it in, but it would be a bit squeezy. Since this is a premium offering, I don't want showers to be shared across twinettes as they currently are. They're forking over good money for this.
"Watson374"


Had a bit of a play with with my own config of a sleeper cabin over-night.  Have got 9 cabins with a shower, basin, bed, desk and hanging space.  If you can make a comfy bunk, then this is 18 people to the carriage, otherwise it's the same loading as the current XPT sleeper cars.

We're also doing the Brisbane service, so more trains really shouldn't be an issue, since it is a pretty bespoke order. I give slightly more preference to the idea of Business-only on day trains and First-only on night trains. (If so, they would be best branded as both being First Class, just day/night versions thereof.)

I suppose creating daysitters from First cabins could be done, just that the First/Business problem here is that a seat becoming a bed is usually better as a seat, and a bed becoming a seat is usually better as a bed.

The question we have to ask is: do we want a small, hardworking fleet or do we want a larger, ore spaced out fleet? If the maintenance and physical toughness of the fleet is up to scratch, a relatively small fleet of five to seven trains could do the two inter-capital runs. How the First and Business cars are marshalled into the consists should be drawn from there.
"Watson374"


In Spain on their HSR routes only some trains are kitted out in a 3 class arrangement.  So some are Club (1st), Preference (business), Tourist (Economy) others are just Preference and Tourist.  I get where you're coming from in wanting to offer a first on all journeys, but I think working on the basis of having consistent labelling of a particular level of service is a better way to go, otherwise customers will get confused about precisely what they are buying.  Basically I don't think there's an issue if there's no first class offered on a particular service.

...calculation wok...
"Watson374"


Most Asian phrase I have ever heard, brilliant, I lolled.


Somehow, I think we only really need six or seven trailers, with either two First cars and one Business car, one First car and two Business cars or three Business cars; then the dining/club car and the three Economy cars.
"Watson374"


Yep, don't see why not initially at least.  Of the market starts going gang busters that when you can review.

If we work off seven trains, that's 15 power cars and however many trailers required.
"Watson374"


Train sets...well, depends how you do it, ignoring the Canberra run for the moment.  2 services a day each way to Brisbane and Melbourne needs 4 trains (8 power cars).  You then need to have a set rostered on maintenance, and it's nice to have a spare loco in case smeg hits the fan (so now that's 11 power cars).  Now a minimal set configuration to start with is one 1st, one business, one diner/lounger and two economy...soo that means we need 5 sleepers, business, lounge/diner and 10 economy. Again it's nice to have spares, so let's say one extra of each. Lets call this Option A.

Option A
Power = 11
1st Sleeper = 6
Business = 6
Economy = 11
Lounge/Diner = 6
Fewer sets, but you're a bit limited on configuration options and have zero capacity to expand.  This also lacks any checked luggage capacity, which you may or may not agree with.

Option B - separate day and night services, but still two each way a day. This need 8 trains to run, basic config would be 1st, 1st, lounge/diner, econ, econ for night services and business, business, lounge/diner, econ, econ during the day.  Thus we end up with...
Power = 17
1st sleeper = 9
Business = 9
Economy = 17
Lounge/Diner = 9
So bigger more expensive fleet, but more you can do with it and room to push it harder if expansion allows.

Ok I'll bring Canberra back in here, to get the hourly service I'm taking about, achieving a 2hr-2.5hr run, necessitates about 6 active sets and well one in the shop, so to include that run you're looking at:
Power = 12
Business = 12
Economy = 18
Lounge/Diner = 6
on top of whatever else you have decided on...you could start with a cut down arrangement such as removing a business and/or economy car like so:
Power = 12
Business = 6
Economy = 12
Lounge/Diner = 6
this seems a waste of motive power, but there's no where to turn a loco in Canberra quickly and easily, so you need a front and back.
  GenY1994 Beginner

why doesnt the government just electrify countrylink becuase then they wont need to run the diesel power.
  BM3801 Lobster

Location: Go Hard or Go Home!
Because Countrylink run further than the wires go- Melbourne, Brisbane, Broken Hill, etc. The wires end at Newcastle, Lithgow, etc, so the trains wouldnt be able to travel further than that
  jedimasterc Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
at the moment I wouldn't want to be taking a shower on the bumpy trip that is the main south. Might hit my head. I am 6 foot 3 inches with a bad back so leg room is extremely important.

showers at either central, southern cross, roma street, albury, casino and other major stations for xpt service passengers only instead of on the train.

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