NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

 
  kypros1992 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney



http://haveyoursay.nsw.gov.au/document/show/328

http://northwestrail.com.au/document/show/72


Single deck metro-style trains will be introduced to the Sydney rail network and the new North West Rail Link will be privately operated under a major shake-up announced by the NSW Government.

The government's 20-year plan for the rail network includes planning for a second harbour crossing and promises to deliver more frequent services and increased train capacity.

Key to the new plan are so-called "rapid transit trains" - single deck metro-style carriages that will operate on the yet to be built North West Rail Link, and be introduced on the Bankstown Line and on the Illawarra Line between the CBD and Hurstville.

The new rapid transit system will see more frequent services on those lines, and will result in a 60 per cent increase in the number of trains that run into the CBD and increase capacity to west and southwest Sydney, Premier Barry O'Farrell says.
"Train travellers have told us they want more frequent services and increased train capacity and that's what they will get," Mr O'Farrell said today.

"This is a long-term transformation of our rail network - introducing rapid transit to the system to deliver major increases in capacity and frequency for greater Sydney."

NSW Transport Minister Gladys Berejiklian said the North West Rail Link would be privately operated, with non-timetabled services running every five minutes between Rouse Hill and Chatswood, where passengers would have to change for trains into the CBD.

"The trains operating on the North West Rail Link will be a new generation, single deck service - delivering a fast, safe and reliable journey for commuters," Ms Berejiklian said.

"There will be no need for a timetable - customers will just turn up to one of the eight new stations proposed for the northwest and catch the next train."

She said boring machines would begin work on the North West Rail Link in 2014, with expressions of interest for the construction contract to be called for later this month.

The line is expected to take between five and six years to completed.

Ms Berejiklian would not set a timeframe for the building of the second harbour crossing.

The second crossing would be constructed under the harbour, the Transport Minister said.

Ms Berejiklian said the 20-year rail strategy, which is part of the draft Transport Master plan to be released later in the year, also included timetable changes which would contribute to a 60 per cent increase in services across all parts of the network.

"The plan addressed bottlenecks that severely limit the number of trains that can travel into the CBD from the north, west and south during peak periods, meaning more trains per hour for people right across the network and faster trips for intercity customers," she said.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-transport-shakeup-plan-for-single-deck-metrostyle-trains-and-second-harbour-crossing-and-20120620-20ngm.html#ixzz1yIt03yme

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  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Sad
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Well I certainly wasn't expecting to read this article so soon into this governments life. However, when you command such a large majority, announcing unpopular projects is the way to go. They will be in for 2 terms easy, and will see the project complete.

I find it interesting that the Illawarra will be linked to North Sydney via the new harbour crossing. I wonder what the implications will be for the freight and interurban services for the Illawarra? 
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_mVwVkpEM

Artist's Impression
  Airvan99 Junior Train Controller

Now I wonder what the upgrading that is required for the existing Epping Chatswood line and mentioned in the SMH?  Anybody taking bets on platform edge doors? Intrestlingly the Wall street Journal article has a picture of a Singapore MRT train to illustrate their story about this new link.

I just spent a few days in Singapore. Of course, I noticed the platform edge doors, but it was a few days before I realised that there were no drivers on any train I took. It felt a bit strange at first but I soon got used to it.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Once I got over the initial shock there are some real positives with this  Shocked .  But the big issue is what to do while they find $10 billion to dig the hole under the harbour.  Offloading a whole bunch of people off at Chatswood to change trains is a bit like adding the equivalent of about 8 minutes to the travel time in what the economists call generalised cost.  Now if the new single deckers are technically compatible with CityRail trains they could keep going - just need capacity.  


If this thread is any indication, the capacity at least to Wynyard is there.  Some trains (and they could be North Shore trains) would need to turn back at Wynyard while others run through.  25 to 30 trains per hour is feasible: add two tracks Chatswood to St Leonards inclusive (surely they will use that for the Rapid Transit), reconstruct the quad North Sydney to St Leonards inclusive and build the turn back at Wynyard. Tolerate 25-30 trains per hour through the two Ws (stop some of the fast loading single deckers) and over the Bridge span (perfectly feasible).


Now I can see why they wouldn't want this to happen Bang Head.  

First, compatibility with CityRail trains is anathema to this lot.    After all this the same crew that gave us the Metro in order to break RailCorp.  Second they will give the ECRL to the NWRL builders/owners (and I guess later the Harbour /CBD /Hurstville /Bankstown+lines) and owners.  Complete separation is likely to be contracted into the deal.   Third, it would impose some timetabling issues east of Chatswood.  There is a little bit of difference between the nimble rapid transit trains and the double deckers, but the Waratahs aren't that slow and that would work (see below).

In my defence me 'lud, there is no reason that the trains need be incompatible.  Maybe signalling should be the same (ATO) but this is beneficial.  Second, this is the way in which double deck trains have been introduced into my favourite railway (the Paris RER) and were introduced in Sydney all those years ago, so this just reverses it.  So while we wait for the new Metro, or for successive governments to procrastinate, we would have a service to the CBD for the two thirds of the passengers who need to change at Chatswood.  I assume, by the way, that the new trains will resemble the US rapid transit trains like BART or the Washington Metro, and actually have more than a few seats.  The images of the NWRL Web site look like a Waratah with the lower windows covered.  Must be chardy time!

Drunk
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_mVwVkpEM

Artist's Impression
"boxythingy"


Nice find, where did you find that originally?

I am in the same boat as Kymn, once I got over the intial shock, there is some merit in the proposal. I noticed in this concept video, our good friend the yellow line is there. Plus, a palatial station platform. 

I will be interested to see how a service with no timetable interacts with timetabled services at Chatswood.
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql_mVwVkpEM

Artist's Impression
"boxythingy"


Nice find, where did you find that originally?

I am in the same boat as Kymn, once I got over the intial shock, there is some merit in the proposal. I noticed in this concept video, our good friend the yellow line is there. Plus, a palatial station platform. 

I will be interested to see how a service with no timetable interacts with timetabled services at Chatswood.
"seb2351"


From the website, as usual: http://northwestrail.com.au/project/videos/1
  unrailed Junior Train Controller

so we are getting the 2nd part of the metro system that the labour gov dumped with a PPP option and a 20+ year wait for any other rail upgrade due to the NWRL project.


so standing room only going into the city for the next 10+ years. 
  unrailed Junior Train Controller


http://northwestrail.com.au/article/more-trains-more-choice-for-sydneys-north-west

Epping to Chatswood rail line converted for these trains;


so the Parramatta to Epping link is being killed off with the Epping to Chatswood changed to a private metro shuttle system.


  abesty1 Chief Commissioner

Location: The CityRail Network


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45TqKDjCVPs
  Rails Chief Commissioner

A lot to take in and a bit of a surprise this early but in many ways extremely disappointing. You could see a lot of it coming though based on some of the information already available. However there are many benefits and I think their priorities are right.

It certainly is a vast improvement on the CBD and NW Metro plans put forward by Labor, there is no real link between them other than they both used Single Deck trains. I do like the fact that there is no duplication through the NW of Sydney like the former plans, it actually moves people through the global employment arc and that there are network wide benefits. This plan doesn't seem to be about busting Cityrail at all costs like the previous plans (to some that's good others bad...).

However it seems that they started with the notion that the second harbour crossing had to be under the harbour and that is depressing but at least with tunnels built for Single Deck trains the deep NW and Harbour crossings are viable, faster and cheaper. Cheap enough to actually be built? Don't know... I don't quite understand how this new crossing joins to the Illawarra and Bankstown lines.

Its also interesting that this new under harbour line appears to utilise the Metro Pitt alignment, so I think there is still room for the Western Express project. That would see improvements for the Western, Southern and Northern lines in the future and simplify the network even further. It seems as reported we will see the Western line and North Shore lines streamlined and 20TPH for both with the Richmond line running into the Cumberland line both Peak and OP. I wonder if we will see Central Coast Oscars run to the blue Mountains and vice versa? The big looser appears to be the Northern line with few extra services and it seems we will see a return of these trains running from Hornsby via Strathfield but only to Central? There is going to be a lot of changing at Central (and Epping) so lucky that there will be a no timetable service through Central to Epping and beyond via Macquarie Park.

Glad to see no mention of the bloody PRL however ironically I think the use of Single Deck trains on the ECRL actually makes this more of an option in the future. There seems to be an indication of new rolling stock for the North/ South Coasts and the Mountains as well as longer trains for the western line although how that works if they run to the shore still is the big question (not an issue if they build the WEX though). The big increase for the Suburban trains seems to be an extra 14 TPH for the Western line and 8 TPH for the East Hills line. I am not sure how they gain the trains on the Western Line though? 28 TPH DD with no listed Infrastructure changes? Still over the bridge? Or are they meaning 14 TPH spread over the three Western lines?


  abesty1 Chief Commissioner

Location: The CityRail Network


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLhmDSO4AvM
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner
  crypticone Chief Train Controller

Location: Blue Mtns
A couple of concerns, I hope corridor is built for Double Deckers, as we don't want to have segregated lines.
Also they will have to dive into the harbour crossing well before Nth Sydney.
I would have thought it would have then gone down pitt st and connect with the New Southern Railway, and then half the donut is constructed , connect the SWRL with the NWRL and there you have it.
Single deckers............ if you run them in the same timetable as the double deckers , do you still have the same benefits, as if you follow a DD you will still have to wait till it unloads and loads.

Regards
  Madhouse_ Station Master

So the 'Metro' will be run by a private operator? Sounds like the precursor to privatising Sydney Trains, as well as NSW Trains.
  LegendsofSteam Junior Train Controller

I just hope the NWRL Tunnels (from the existing entrance point to the ECRL) will be bored to the existing DD Train height standards, so DD Trains may use the line in future... Would seem incredibly short sighted if they don't!

I'd still prefer to see the NWRL being extended from Rouse Hill to link up with the existing Richmond branch just outside Richmond... Would have been ideal having Richmond services running in a loop:- Richmond via Parramatta to Redfern/CTL, NSYD, Chatswood & via NWECRL to Richmond & v.v ...

Maybe when the second Harbour Tunnel Rail Link (HTRL) is built a simular proposal could be considered for the Richmond Branch if it & the NWECRL were built to form a loop as well as having the metro style operation which would have NWECRL to Chatswood, Nth SYD & HTRL (using the tunnel portals @ NSYD that were originally planned as the Nthn Beaches Rail Link as the Nth Side HTRL Tunnel dives) then continues via CBD under Wynyard on the CityWest Route to Redfern on the new Rapid Transit NWECRL - Illawarra Metro Line to Hurstville...  

NWRL would benifit from a 2-tire service:-

* Richmond/NWECRL Loop Services using existing Harbour Bridge & Western Line Services Arrangement

* NWECRL & Illawarra, via CityWest & Redfern Metro Rapid Transist using the HTRL.

Codes:-

NWECRL:- NthWest Epping Chatswood RailLink.   HTRL:- Harbour Tunnel RailLink
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
I just hope the NWRL Tunnels (from the existing entrance point to the ECRL) will be bored to the existing DD Train height standards, so DD Trains may use the line in future... Would seem incredibly short sighted if they don't! I'd still prefer to see the NWRL being extended from Rouse Hill to link up with the existing Richmond branch just outside Richmond... Would have been ideal having Richmond services running in a loop:- Richmond via Parramatta to Redfern/CTL, NSYD, Chatswood & via NWECRL to Richmond & v.v ... Maybe when the second Harbour Tunnel Rail Link (HTRL) is built a simular proposal could be considered for the Richmond Branch if it & the NWECRL were built to form a loop as well as having the metro style operation which would have NWECRL to Chatswood, Nth SYD & HTRL (using the tunnel portals @ NSYD that were originally planned as the Nthn Beaches Rail Link as the Nth Side HTRL Tunnel dives) then continues via CBD under Wynyard on the CityWest Route to Redfern on the new Rapid Transit NWECRL - Illawarra Metro Line to Hurstville... NWRL would benifit from a 2-tire service:- * Richmond/NWECRL Loop Services using existing Harbour Bridge & Western Line Services Arrangement * NWECRL & Illawarra, via CityWest & Redfern Metro Rapid Transist using the HTRL. Codes:- NWECRL:- NthWest Epping Chatswood RailLink. HTRL:- Harbour Tunnel RailLink
"LegendsofSteam"


bloody hell. what are they doing now. single decker shuttles. Personally I think NWRL should be DD with trains every 5-15 minutes running through the second harbour crossing into central then going down south to hurstville or where ever they feel like it, terminating at Central and running back to the NW or running to Western Sydney (WEX).

having single deckers won't really solve capacity issues (take experts recomemdations not mine) and with people in Sydney wanting a seat i'm sure single deckers won't be favoured.

My suggestion
as said above and
DD trains running at higher frequency
olympic park style platforms (costly but works) (fantasy idea)
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
I think their idea of metro style trains is to future proof the area (since it's being built) before capacity issues emerge such as with today's delays "due to large passenger numbers" and what we see on the Illawarra Line presently. The only downside to this is, as fixitguy said they will initially run as shuttles until the harbour crossing is built. They should probably use DD trains until the crossing is completed.
  Speed Minister for Railways

that the second harbour crossing had to be under the harbour and that is depressing but at least with tunnels built for Single Deck trains the deep NW and Harbour crossings are viable, faster and cheaper.
"Rails"
The saving of digging for single-deck trains rather than double-deck ones doesn't seem great. I agree with Legends of Steam and CrypticOne that it would be better to allow room for double-deck trains, if only for emergencies.

Despite the hype over single deck trains, I think that the more significant part of this plan is the segregation of the network. Melbourne has a similar idea being floated. It reduces the potential for a disruption in one part of the network affecting the rest of the network. It could be detrimental to employee satisfaction.

In the case of Sydney, this segregation might make it easier for a future government to outsource operation of trains to multiple private operators.
  jaseee Chief Train Controller

So where will the Hornsby via Macquarie Park trains go then?
  abesty1 Chief Commissioner

Location: The CityRail Network
ABC Report & video: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-20/no-doubledeckers/4082050?section=nsw
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Now I wonder what the upgrading that is required for the existing Epping Chatswood line and mentioned in the SMH? Anybody taking bets on platform edge doors? Intrestlingly the Wall street Journal article has a picture of a Singapore MRT train to illustrate their story about this new link. I just spent a few days in Singapore. Of course, I noticed the platform edge doors, but it was a few days before I realised that there were no drivers on any train I took. It felt a bit strange at first but I soon got used to it.
"Airvan99"


This is indeed so for the North East and Circle lines, as well as the LRTs and Changi Airport Skytrain. However, if you were on the original trunks of the North South and East West lines, there are indeed drivers (of sorts) in front, as the system is crewed ATO.

As for this, I read about it in the mX after work. I was tilted off vertical, but I quickly got used to it. My main concern is that they're chasing single-deck trains like they're some sort of utopia incarnate. It got me wondering again if the solution to this problem could actually be to use double-deck trains with three doors, a la RER, coupled with ATO/ATP. I thus have revived my old 7RER idea from a few months ago and may start a new thread to foam about how the new trains should be configured.

At any rate, the tunnels should be built large enough to take double-deck trains, if only for emergency run-throughs.
  C3600 Train Controller

Location: Coniston
LOL
Yep LOL
This government is proving to be just as ineffective and supreme duds as the last but at least KK was good to look at. Razz
  lyjjimmy Station Master

2032?! Do they mean after at least 20 more years the Bankstown and the Illawarra can get more train to the city? What a joke!

and the NWRL will only terminate at Chatswood and not going into the city? Hmmm, I think people will be more willing to stick on their M2 buses. not only cheaper, but faster and direct.


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