NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

 
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Platform dynamic doors are designed to accommodate all stopping postitions and all door arrangements.

And underground stations across the world are all going to need them. Short of installing them, do train tunnels in Sydney have any equipment to detect unauthorised persons?

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  TomBTR Train Controller

Location: near Sydney
The dynamic platform door video is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLrCOPnKGyA

My comment is that this system only allows an error of plus or minus 1200mm. Drivers in Sydney almost always achieve this accuracy, usually they do much better. However I suspect that this tolerance would not be enough to cover the differences is door spacing between various designs of cars in service on the network.

To be fully universal you could have two sets of doors, one inner and one outer, so that you could always move the both sets away from the desired openings while not leaving any intermediate space open.

Tom
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I thought that the door arrangements on Sydney trains were pretty standardised, all carriages having two doors per side and all doors over the bogies.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by moving both the inner and outer sets away from the desired opening? Do you have a diagram?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
A error margin of 1200mm is probably incorrect. I would have thought 200mm tops looking at Dubai metro
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
It's platform dynamic doors that have that margin, other platform screen doors do have much less.
  Airvan99 Junior Train Controller

While traveling at the front on a driverless metro recently  ( can't remember if it was line 1 or 14) I noticed on the side window an arrow transfer had been affixed. When the train came to a stop at the station this lined up with a target painted on the tunnel wall with graduation marks marked in centimeters. These markings were probably left over from the checks prior to the system going into service. It was interesting that at every stop the train was stopping within 10cm of the "correct" stopping point.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
While traveling at the front on a driverless metro recently ( can't remember if it was line 1 or 14) I noticed on the side window an arrow transfer had been affixed. When the train came to a stop at the station this lined up with a target painted on the tunnel wall with graduation marks marked in centimeters. These markings were probably left over from the checks prior to the system going into service. It was interesting that at every stop the train was stopping within 10cm of the "correct" stopping point.
Airvan99

Computers tend to be more repeatable than humans
  wxtre Chief Train Controller
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
RENAME

According to an advert in the North Shore Times of 11 Nov 2015, p09, The NWRL (North West Rail Link) has been renamed to
SMNW (Sydney Metro Northwest).

In the same issue there are photos of a mockup of the new single deck Metro carriages.
  viaprojects Train Controller

RENAME & MOCKUP

According to an advert in the North Shore Times of 11 Nov 2015, p09, The NWRL (North West Rail Link) has been renamed to
SMNW (Sydney Metro Northwest).

.
awsgc24


name change has been around for 5 months with the new site ( changes from rail to metro ).for the city and southwest planning.

http://sydneymetro.info/home

most news comes from http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/ with news release about the demo unit on 5th nov 2015.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I thought that the door arrangements on Sydney trains were pretty standardised, all carriages having two doors per side and all doors over the bogies.
Myrtone
Not all of the trains are of the same length. An 8 car waratah is actually shorter then all the other models in an 8 car layout. Different sized doors with the newer trains having wider doors. At certain stations there are significant height gap issues in relation to the platform as well. So platform aligning would need to be done before PSD's could become viable in Sydney. With Sydney having guards that is another obstacle to PSD's.
  viaprojects Train Controller

stage 2 is up the with the station locations

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/sydney-metro-accelerates-through-cbd-stations-confirmed-and-first-borer-arrive-2018


they may kill stage 3. going by the news ( money ).
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
stage 2 is up the with the station locations

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/sydney-metro-accelerates-through-cbd-stations-confirmed-and-first-borer-arrive-2018


they may kill stage 3. going by the news ( money ).
viaprojects
This is the first time I have seen stage 3 even mentioned.

There will always be additional stages, availability of money will simply determine the timeline.

I still think Nth Beaches will be connected at one stage prior to 2030.

Using Google maps it would appear Town Hall and Pitt St will be within 200m as the crow flys. I wonder if possible to build a connecting pedestrian tunnel?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

stage 2 is up the with the station locations

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/sydney-metro-accelerates-through-cbd-stations-confirmed-and-first-borer-arrive-2018


they may kill stage 3. going by the news ( money ).
This is the first time I have seen stage 3 even mentioned.

There will always be additional stages, availability of money will simply determine the timeline.

I still think Nth Beaches will be connected at one stage prior to 2030.

Using Google maps it would appear Town Hall and Pitt St will be within 200m as the crow flys. I wonder if possible to build a connecting pedestrian tunnel?
RTT_Rules
The new b line proposal would seem to kill the northern beaches rail idea off. The government is going to build a bus rapid transit service to the northern beaches using double deck buses. http://b-line.transport.nsw.gov.au/
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The announcement(s) seems to have answered some questions and asked more?

One PR says nothing about Artarmond and St Leonards and another leaves door open while they still look at options. Even with one stop extra for either, there is about half the stops and obviously far straighter alignment than currently. Probably saving at least 10min and reducing the impacts of standing.

Then there is the Liverpool extension, but the map shows a straight line indicating going via the Bankstown Airport and not using the existing corridor. This would certainly provide an option for a faster for Liverpool.

Assuming this was to happen, then two additonal stations would be Condell Park and Chipping North/Moorebank. Ironically it would go underneath an airport but no need for a station.

Yagoona and Bijong would probably be closed as will be the line. Condell Park would help off-set the loss of Yagoona.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The announcement(s) seems to have answered some questions and asked more?

One PR says nothing about Artarmond and St Leonards and another leaves door open while they still look at options. Even with one stop extra for either, there is about half the stops and obviously far straighter alignment than currently. Probably saving at least 10min and reducing the impacts of standing.

Then there is the Liverpool extension, but the map shows a straight line indicating going via the Bankstown Airport and not using the existing corridor. This would certainly provide an option for a faster for Liverpool.

Assuming this was to happen, then two additonal stations would be Condell Park and Chipping North/Moorebank. Ironically it would go underneath an airport but no need for a station.

Yagoona and Bijong would probably be closed as will be the line. Condell Park would help off-set the loss of Yagoona.
RTT_Rules
The latest announcement says that there will be a station at Crows Nest and along miller street in north sydney.

There won't necessarily be a stop at Georges Hall or Chipping Norton because of the issues with flooding in that area. Bankstown airport is not a passenger airport so no station is needed. The line won't close at birrong and yagoona as a Liverpool to Bankstown via sefton service would collect people and deliver them onto the metro.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Flood prone areas don't prevent U/G stations, you just design them differently.

I am not holding my breath on that short line remaining open if the extension to Liverpool goes ahead as it is hard to see how it is efficiently serviced, a shuttle from either or both Liverpool via Shefton and Lidcombe over such a short run just doesn't seem practical. I guess we will see.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I am not holding my breath on that short line remaining open if the extension to Liverpool goes ahead as it is hard to see how it is efficiently serviced, a shuttle from either or both Liverpool via Shefton and Lidcombe over such a short run just doesn't seem practical. I guess we will see.
RTT_Rules
It can be served sufficiently by 4 car trains. Such a shuttle is run from Liverpool to Leppington currently and most of the line needs to stay open for freight and there would be significant political repercussions if 2 stations were shutdown because of a new metro line.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Flood prone areas don't prevent U/G stations, you just design them differently.
RTT_Rules

There is a difference between flood prone and a suburb built beside a river on a flood plain. A flood would fill the tunnel between Liverpool and Bankstown up and require significant repatriation work. There was a reason why the original line did not take this path and ended up going the way it currently does.
  eddyb Chief Train Controller

Had a thought today that rather than waiting for the new TBM to get here we could launch the pair that are finished south from Barangaroo to Martin place etc. ASAP because they are designed exactly for that geology.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Had a thought today that rather than waiting for the new TBM to get here we could launch the pair that are finished south from Barangaroo to Martin place etc. ASAP because they are designed exactly for that geology.
eddyb

From reading the statement it would seem that the Tbm's will be starting from Chatswood and Sydenham and then heading towards Barangaroo with the spoil being removed from those sites because it would be too difficult to remove from the city.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Flood prone areas don't prevent U/G stations, you just design them differently.

There is a difference between flood prone and a suburb built beside a river on a flood plain. A flood would fill the tunnel between Liverpool and Bankstown up and require significant repatriation work. There was a reason why the original line did not take this path and ended up going the way it currently does.
simstrain
Agree but others still manage it and there are various ways, they just don't walk away and blame the early planners. A flood will only fill the tunnel if you let the water in. The original line is a surface railway built with a pick and shovel. The UG will still have ventilation and services access points.

For example the initial entrance is sometimes above the street level such that you have to go up and then down into the subway to give basic protection from rising water. I cannot remember of the location but I've been on at least one subway where the steps into the subway went up 1m before going down and this included DAA access.

If there is a risk for the line to be flooded then they install flood protection doors at all the entrances.

Brisbane's CRR will most likely need a combination of the above.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Flood prone areas don't prevent U/G stations, you just design them differently.

There is a difference between flood prone and a suburb built beside a river on a flood plain. A flood would fill the tunnel between Liverpool and Bankstown up and require significant repatriation work. There was a reason why the original line did not take this path and ended up going the way it currently does.
Agree but others still manage it and there are various ways, they just don't walk away and blame the early planners. A flood will only fill the tunnel if you let the water in. The original line is a surface railway built with a pick and shovel. The UG will still have ventilation and services access points.

For example the initial entrance is sometimes above the street level such that you have to go up and then down into the subway to give basic protection from rising water. I cannot remember of the location but I've been on at least one subway where the steps into the subway went up 1m before going down and this included DAA access.

If there is a risk for the line to be flooded then they install flood protection doors at all the entrances.

Brisbane's CRR will most likely need a combination of the above.
RTT_Rules
1 metre high entry is about 9 metres to low. When the Georges river floods at chipping norton it can get as high as 10.5 metres. Any glass structures would break allowing flood water in.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
1 metre high entry is about 9 metres to low. When the Georges river floods at chipping norton it can get as high as 10.5 metres. Any glass structures would break allowing flood water in.
simstrain
A few tips

1) I didn't propose the stations would be on the river bank, thus reducing the exposure to flooding by being at higher elevation where people actually live.

2) The 1m bump entrance was a number, not a design. I have seen "roughly" a one metre raised entrance to again reduce the exposure to flooding. ie the higher you go the less risk. It could be higher!

3) Any Engineer that proposes the use of glass flood doors didn't finish high school. If the flood protection doors are closed the line would also be closed as a safety precaution. The station would be closed and I think at this flood level people have better things to worry about. Even the surface network would be lucky to be fully operational with so much water around.

4) Yes I looked up flooding of the river. http://www.georgesriver.org.au/IgnitionSuite/uploads/docs/Have%20We%20Forgotten%20About%20Flooding%20on%20the%20Georges%20River.pdf

It rises 10m from the river in worst recorded but only 8m since 1900 (what changed?)

When I type in flooded Bankstown Airport, there are only images of partial flooding, not submerging? Is it higher than the flood level? A proposed station would be in the area of the airport.

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