Cityrail Rail Extension to Bathurst

 
  gilberations Assistant Commissioner

Location: Lithgow
Another dumb question on this: do the $2.50 pensioner tickets cover the trip out to Bathurst? If so my parents will be making quite few trips out there!
"jcouch"


it already does... MyZone technically does also

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  Black1050 Chief Train Controller

Location: Out of the Metrop
Does anybody know where they sourced the set?
Sounds like CityRail is going through another name change, is there a thread on the politics?
"Junction box"


My understanding is the set was sourced from Broadmeadow ESC.
  Black1050 Chief Train Controller

Location: Out of the Metrop

Yep, started from 1st August with the NSW trains area up the mountains now commencing from Emu Plains. Formerly the Customer Service Manager had responsibility down to Doonside but now only from Emu Plains. As of yet nothing to alert the public this has happened.
"UP9372"


^ Everything I've seen and heard confirms this too.  The organisation exists, and is in the process of being populated. 
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
Another dumb question on this: do the $2.50 pensioner tickets cover the trip out to Bathurst? If so my parents will be making quite few trips out there!
"jcouch"

Yes, they have for many years but only for bus travel I believe, I presume your parents are gunzels who hate buses.
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
I hope this isn't a start of seeing other 250km locations having 2 car Endeavours run into Sydney Terminal. (Eg-Scone, Dungog e.t.c)
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I hope this isn't a start of seeing other 250km locations having 2 car Endeavours run into Sydney Terminal. (Eg-Scone, Dungog e.t.c)
"bowralcommuter"


In theory, there's nothing wrong with that, except the train itself isn't set up for journeys of that length. However, NSW Trains is to address these issues of passenger comfort, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
I hope this isn't a start of seeing other 250km locations having 2 car Endeavours run into Sydney Terminal. (Eg-Scone, Dungog e.t.c)
"bowralcommuter"


Can't see it happening. Scone and Dungog have a number of rail-only connections to Sydney via Countrylink (aka NSW Trains) as well as services that connect at either Hamilton or Newcastle. Not a great saving. Also, if looking at passengers wanting to access direct services in Sydney, most, if not all, of those services would be accessible in Newcastle, so no real benefit.

Can't see this happening with Nowra or Goulburn either, as both have rail-rail connections, with the Southern Highlands having direct services at certain times, although the peak hour  Down service (involving Sydney Trains to Campbelltown and NSW Trains beyond) can be off-putting to some.

Bathurst on the other hand had only one daily service, which is not timed to allow access to services (legal, medical, whatever) in Sydney whilst allowing a same-day return. All same day return services involve a bus-rail interchange, and that can be off-putting for a lot of people.

I put forward a proposal a few years back, which has been validated by several Countrylink on-board staff, as follows:

Take the XPL off the ARM/MRZ run.
Take the XPT off the daylight GFN run.

Swap them over, so you will have a four car XPL to GFN and an XPT to ARM. On board staff tell me this will be adequate.

Base a 2-car XPL up in the north-west to run the MRZ-WCK shuttle to connect with the XPT. This can be serviced out of Broadmeadow Endeavour Maintenance Centre.

The advantage of this is that, at the moment, you often get a situation where the ARM part is full, so bookings to ARM are unavailable, but there are seats in the MRZ section, OR VICE VERSA.

Having the XPT negates this, as you can spread everyone out throught the train.

Now, the relevance of this to the Bathurst day return service?

It frees up an XPL.

At the moment, you have a 2+3(4) XPL on the ARM/MRZ runs, so four sets, plus two XPT's to GFN. This will not change the XPT utilisation, but it will change the Xplorer utilisation to two 4XPL to GFN, one 2XPL doing the WCK-MRZ shuttle, leaving one 2XPL available for redeployment elsewhere (Bathurst, perhaps?)

You might even be able to time it in such a way that the incoming GFN XPL forms the evening Bathurst (sorry, don't have the code for it) service, returning the next morning, to form the lunch-time GFN service.

Just some thoughts.

Dave
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I hope this isn't a start of seeing other 250km locations having 2 car Endeavours run into Sydney Terminal. (Eg-Scone, Dungog e.t.c)
"bowralcommuter"


Can't see it happening. Scone and Dungog have a number of rail-only connections to Sydney via Countrylink (aka NSW Trains) as well as services that connect at either Hamilton or Newcastle. Not a great saving. Also, if looking at passengers wanting to access direct services in Sydney, most, if not all, of those services would be accessible in Newcastle, so no real benefit.

Can't see this happening with Nowra or Goulburn either, as both have rail-rail connections, with the Southern Highlands having direct services at certain times, although the peak hour  Down service (involving Sydney Trains to Campbelltown and NSW Trains beyond) can be off-putting to some.

Bathurst on the other hand had only one daily service, which is not timed to allow access to services (legal, medical, whatever) in Sydney whilst allowing a same-day return. All same day return services involve a bus-rail interchange, and that can be off-putting for a lot of people.

I put forward a proposal a few years back, which has been validated by several Countrylink on-board staff, as follows:

Take the XPL off the ARM/MRZ run.
Take the XPT off the daylight GFN run.

Swap them over, so you will have a four car XPL to GFN and an XPT to ARM. On board staff tell me this will be adequate.

Base a 2-car XPL up in the north-west to run the MRZ-WCK shuttle to connect with the XPT. This can be serviced out of Broadmeadow Endeavour Maintenance Centre.

The advantage of this is that, at the moment, you often get a situation where the ARM part is full, so bookings to ARM are unavailable, but there are seats in the MRZ section, OR VICE VERSA.

Having the XPT negates this, as you can spread everyone out throught the train.

Now, the relevance of this to the Bathurst day return service?

It frees up an XPL.

At the moment, you have a 2+3(4) XPL on the ARM/MRZ runs, so four sets, plus two XPT's to GFN. This will not change the XPT utilisation, but it will change the Xplorer utilisation to two 4XPL to GFN, one 2XPL doing the WCK-MRZ shuttle, leaving one 2XPL available for redeployment elsewhere (Bathurst, perhaps?)

You might even be able to time it in such a way that the incoming GFN XPL forms the evening Bathurst (sorry, don't have the code for it) service, returning the next morning, to form the lunch-time GFN service.

Just some thoughts.

Dave
"thadocta"



Puts on the black hat:

1) Lack of pathing for empty car  movements means servicing the XPL is going to be very difficult.
2) A 4 car XPL will not be able to cope with the daytime grafton demands. This is based on personal experience working this train. Also, the buffet is not designed for the workload that it will be put under.
3) Not enough luggage space for the Grafton service based on an XPL
4) You will need new stabling arrangements for the Armidale storage of equipment.
5) More people use the XPT for a longer distance then the XPL, which is why it is on the North. 



  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
I hope this isn't a start of seeing other 250km locations having 2 car Endeavours run into Sydney Terminal. (Eg-Scone, Dungog e.t.c)
"bowralcommuter"


In theory, there's nothing wrong with that, except the train itself isn't set up for journeys of that length. However, NSW Trains is to address these issues of passenger comfort, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
"Raichase"


That's what I meant really, I just didn't explain it very well. A train that far out of Sydney I think should have a Countrylink (I won't call it NSW trains until I start seeing the logo on trains e.t.c) service, not Cityrail. Should have comfy seating and a buffet service. Cityrail types of trains should only extend to places like Wollongong and Gosford. However, as you said the new re-structure into NSW and Sydney trains later this year and next year will be interesting to watch, with a black and white approach of further than Macarthur, Emu Plains, Berowra and Waterfall being NSW trains and anything within that boundary being Sydney trains. However are all NSW trains going to be the same or will there be some differences still? For example, A train to Brisbane will still have differences to a train to Newcastle will it not?

Back on topic.......I heard the Endeavour is getting a multi million dollar upgrade, anyone know specifically is getting done to the set?
  UP9372 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned


All this week the Dubbo train has been a 4 car XPL running to an untabled path (according to the TLS). I have noted that there appear to be a number of persons in the driving cab and I am wondering whether they are also using this run to familarize crew with the route and that the Endevour being renovated for the Bathurst run might be brought up to XPL standards are better?
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba

All this week the Dubbo train has been a 4 car XPL running to an untabled path (according to the TLS). I have noted that there appear to be a number of persons in the driving cab and I am wondering whether they are also using this run to familarize crew with the route and that the Endevour being renovated for the Bathurst run might be brought up to XPL standards are better?
"UP9372"
Why is it being an XPL signifigant? Couldn't they do this road training at the front of an XPT?

Dave
  gilberations Assistant Commissioner

Location: Lithgow
ok, as i am the only person who appears to have seen the physical evidence and you guys dont know how to look at the pictures. the endeavour used for the trials is a normal endeavour with OSCAR seats, and as far as i can tell, this will be the one used. perhaps the $7M was used in a non pax noticable way
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
ok, as i am the only person who appears to have seen the physical evidence and you guys dont know how to look at the pictures. the endeavour used for the trials is a normal endeavour with OSCAR seats, and as far as i can tell, this will be the one used. perhaps the $7M was used in a non pax noticable way
"gilberations"


Since I am (apparently) the only one to have posted that Endeavours and Xplorers are common-rated as far as drivers go, if you can drive one you can drive the other, then it really isn't relevant that an Endeavour was used for driver training, as long as it gets the job done.

What eventually happens is irrelevant, it might well be an Endeavour (God help the passengers) but it is by no means clear that Endeavours will be used.

Dave
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Can't see this happening with Nowra or Goulburn either, as both have rail-rail connections, with the Southern Highlands having direct services at certain times, although the peak hour  Down service (involving Sydney Trains to Campbelltown and NSW Trains beyond) can be off-putting to some.
"thadocta"


Folks are once again putting the cart ahead of the horse with this whole "Sydney Trains and NSW Trains" garbage. It has not been implemented yet, and it's impossible to make comments like the above without the organisations being fully in place. For all you know, "NSW Trains" could mean a direct service Sydney to Moss Vale. It is still "CityRail to CityRail" at the time of posting, so stop getting ahead of yourselves.

ok, as i am the only person who appears to have seen the physical evidence and you guys dont know how to look at the pictures. the endeavour used for the trials is a normal endeavour with OSCAR seats, and as far as i can tell, this will be the one used. perhaps the $7M was used in a non pax noticable way


So because you've seen one trial, then you automatically know more than those people actually "in the know"? My mistake, we'll all defer to you for your expert "opinion" in these cases. My apologies.
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
Can't see this happening with Nowra or Goulburn either, as both have rail-rail connections, with the Southern Highlands having direct services at certain times, although the peak hour  Down service (involving Sydney Trains to Campbelltown and NSW Trains beyond) can be off-putting to some.
"thadocta"


Folks are once again putting the cart ahead of the horse with this whole "Sydney Trains and NSW Trains" garbage. It has not been implemented yet, and it's impossible to make comments like the above without the organisations being fully in place. For all you know, "NSW Trains" could mean a direct service Sydney to Moss Vale. It is still "CityRail to CityRail" at the time of posting, so stop getting ahead of yourselves.
"Raichase"


It isn't, as far as staffing is concerned. We already have managers with different areas of responsibility, Katoomba-nased staff that work for NSW Trains (as opposed to Sydney Trains or CityRail), reporting to managers who up until recently managed to Doonside but now manage to Lapstone (to take the Blue Mountains line as an example).

The best way to do something like this is to implement it, administratively, then once it is al bedded down THEN you do the re-branding and marketting., which appears to be the way they are doing it. That way you have the systems in place and everything organised, before you change the public face.

So I will still contend, it IS "NSW Trains" and "Sydney Trains" since that is what the organisational structure involves.

Dave
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I hope this isn't a start of seeing other 250km locations having 2 car Endeavours run into Sydney Terminal. (Eg-Scone, Dungog e.t.c)
"bowralcommuter"


In theory, there's nothing wrong with that, except the train itself isn't set up for journeys of that length. However, NSW Trains is to address these issues of passenger comfort, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
"Raichase"


I think this is actually a very interesting question.  NSW Trains will have a much broader mission than CountryLink, and broader than the current CityRail which is criticised for it's "one size fit's all" approach to fleet management.

NSW Trains is likely to have the same problem CityRail has: it's routes will have vastly different requirements, but it will have to make do with a limited fleet that by necessity will need to be capable of serving most of the routes at one time or another. 

Given that is the case, I think the homogenous vehicle design NSW Trains will needs to adopt will have to cater for commuters in volume and very short haul regional services.  So I think the trend will be for less comfortable, less spacious seats rather than more.

In the short and medium term, the only new vehicles NSW Trains will have in their fleet will be the OSCARs (which they might not even have) and the Hunter Rail Cars.  These will be the only vehicles they'll be able to order new version of for some time.  And the issues will be exacerbated by the fact the majority of their long haul commuter fleet in the V sets  will need to be retired (probably) before they have a suitable replacement comming onstream.
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
Given that is the case, I think the homogenous vehicle design NSW Trains will needs to adopt will have to cater for commuters in volume and very short haul regional services.  So I think the trend will be for less comfortable, less spacious seats rather than more.
"djf01"


Can work if:

A) change over journey is not too longer than the current direct journey
B) There is a buffet service

Thus, saving some much needed cash.

If the Endeavour seating is to remain, the change over train seating will have to be better or the remaining loyal country passengers will hop into a flight or fly down their local highway to Sydney and back. 

On topic again, I'll take a wild guess that they'll convert the internal into Xplorer with better seating and a basic buffet.
  UP9372 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned

All this week the Dubbo train has been a 4 car XPL running to an untabled path (according to the TLS). I have noted that there appear to be a number of persons in the driving cab and I am wondering whether they are also using this run to familarize crew with the route and that the Endevour being renovated for the Bathurst run might be brought up to XPL standards are better?
"UP9372"
Why is it being an XPL signifigant? Couldn't they do this road training at the front of an XPT?

Dave
"thadocta"


I do not really understand what you are trying to imply. I just reported what I have observed. They could use a Fairmont for all I care. So why have XPLs replaced the XPT so often on this run. XPT stuffed, or training opportunity. Each is a pretty valid reason. 

You are right about NSW Trains management structure up the Blue Mountains as Dwayne now looks after Emu Plains to Lithgow with a different boss. As far as I am concerned, it has happened. Details to come.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Given that is the case, I think the homogenous vehicle design NSW Trains will needs to adopt will have to cater for commuters in volume and very short haul regional services.  So I think the trend will be for less comfortable, less spacious seats rather than more.
"djf01"


Can work if:

A) change over journey is not too longer than the current direct journey
B) There is a buffet service

Thus, saving some much needed cash.

If the Endeavour seating is to remain, the change over train seating will have to be better or the remaining loyal country passengers will hop into a flight or fly down their local highway to Sydney and back. 

On topic again, I'll take a wild guess that they'll convert the internal into Xplorer with better seating and a basic buffet.
"bowralcommuter"


I don't think so.  I think they'll cut the Goulburn Endeavours (or some of them anyway) & make do with the Canberra Explorers.  They *may* combine these into a single 4 or 5 car trains, or not.  Either way that will recover 2 or 3 Endeavour sets and perhaps 2 non cab Xplorers.

They *may* refit some OSCAR sets with 8 rows of 2+2 seating rather than the current 10 rows of 2+3 for use by NSW trains.  But I think in the next 5 to 10 years it's highly unlikely any new DD suburban sets will be ordered, and Sydney Trains will need as many OSCARs as it can scrounge.

NSW Trains will have the problem that it will lose the V sets in that time.  Whatever new vehicles NSW Trains acquires (if any), they'll need to cover this capability somehow.  They might have enough OSCARs to do it, but I doubt it.  More likely they'll need a new DMU suitable for mid-range commuter runs that can cover the longer runs too as the XPTora fleet ages into complete unreliability.  NSW Trains won't need to squeeze 100+ pax into a 20m long vehicle, so they'll be more comfie than the OSCARs, but not much.  Closer to the Endeavours than the Explorers is my guess. 

And that's if the capital eventuates for such new trains.  Failing that, I think Trains NSW will be redeploying the XPT fleet and perhaps the newer V set trailers with loco hauled ops on the commuter runs, with the DMU fleet - including the Endeavours (unmodified because they'll need all the seats) - onto the longer runs.


  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
So I will still contend, it IS "NSW Trains" and "Sydney Trains" since that is what the organisational structure involves.
"thadocta"


...and considering this is an enthusiast forum, and not an internal Railcorp forum, I would contend that until something appears that the enthusiast community can get their hands on (photograph, discuss, dribble over, offer improvements upon because they know better than the managers and staff), it doesn't count. Bugger the organisational structure, most of the enthusiasts here wouldn't know or understand what it entails, and it doesn't matter to them anyway.

Edit: I will concede that I did not know that the hierachy had been implemented, but that's what happens with "Joe Enthusiast" is not "plugged in" to company developments. As a similar example, it wouldn't matter to most people on here if the structure of the contracts with cleaning companies had been changed (eg Challenger cleaning on stations as opposed to Presentation Staff), but it would matter if the actual stuctures of the trains changed (eg if EDI took over refurbishing Tangaras with different interiors and the like when compared to the UGL stuff). Basically, I'm not trying to say "you're wrong" (now), I'm just saying that it doesn't matter until the first REAL improvement is made.
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
So I will still contend, it IS "NSW Trains" and "Sydney Trains" since that is what the organisational structure involves.
"thadocta"


...and considering this is an enthusiast forum, and not an internal Railcorp forum, I would contend that until something appears that the enthusiast community can get their hands on (photograph, discuss, dribble over, offer improvements upon because they know better than the managers and staff), it doesn't count. Bugger the organisational structure, most of the enthusiasts here wouldn't know or understand what it entails, and it doesn't matter to them anyway.

Edit: I will concede that I did not know that the hierachy had been implemented, but that's what happens with "Joe Enthusiast" is not "plugged in" to company developments. As a similar example, it wouldn't matter to most people on here if the structure of the contracts with cleaning companies had been changed (eg Challenger cleaning on stations as opposed to Presentation Staff), but it would matter if the actual stuctures of the trains changed (eg if EDI took over refurbishing Tangaras with different interiors and the like when compared to the UGL stuff). Basically, I'm not trying to say "you're wrong" (now), I'm just saying that it doesn't matter until the first REAL improvement is made.
"Raichase"


Ok, the sky is pink. Until you can prove to me that it isn't, that is the way it is.

Raichase, I expected better from you.

As far as this thread goes, it really does matter. CityRail before went to Lithgow, Countrylink beyond, operationally.

Under the new arrangements, SydneyTrains will only go as far as Emu Plains, with NSW Trains beyonf.

So it will be a different operator under the new arrangements, compared to what was happening, before. Surely this is worthy of discussion, particy=ularly regarding the break-up between operators....

Dave
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Ok, the sky is pink. Until you can prove to me that it isn't, that is the way it is.

Raichase, I expected better from you.
"thadocta"


I'm confused as to your attitude? I've admitted that I was wrong about the organisational structure, but until something changes that the enthusiasts can see, there is no change as far as I'm concerned. Nobody needs to spell out the differences between NSW Trains and Sydney Trains, but until it's fully implemented, we have no idea if it will proceed or get changed again in the next months...
  UP9372 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
Ok, the sky is pink. Until you can prove to me that it isn't, that is the way it is.

Raichase, I expected better from you.
"thadocta"


I'm confused as to your attitude? I've admitted that I was wrong about the organisational structure, but until something changes that the enthusiasts can see, there is no change as far as I'm concerned. Nobody needs to spell out the differences between NSW Trains and Sydney Trains, but until it's fully implemented, we have no idea if it will proceed or get changed again in the next months...
"Raichase"


I see were you are coming from Raichase. I am in the job so I am a bit more up to date on what is happening than an enthusiast. Incidentally, a organisational chart and an explanation of it was released by Rob Mason yesterday. It does refer to it as an interim structure but there is a clear divide between operations and customer service although strangely the CSMs under NSW Rail come under Operations
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I have a question about this NSW Trains/Sydney Trains organization.

Will RailCorp still exist as a parent subsidy, or is it going?
  Johnny_Walton Railcorp Crash Test Dummy No.1

Location: Flemington Maintenance Centre
OK,
My little contribution to this guess/rumorathon is this.

I have transsferred 2 Endeavour sets from Lithgow to Eveleigh after crew training.
They were 2808 and 2814 + mates on 2 seperate occassions over 2 weeks.
They are just "Endeavours" nothing special, normal hard smeg seats.
No-one at EXPSC has been told or saying (If they know) which set will be used on the Bathurst service.
Nor do they they know anything about retro fitting new seats OR any other creature comforts.

Now to take 1, 2- car set and say it can be used exsclusively on that run with its comfy seats etc, is near Impossible.
As the Bathurst service Might/will be a normal Endeavour set things often go wrong which require overnight servicing/repair at Eveleigh.
In this case what do you do?
Swing a spare set over with hard seats? Doubt it.
Time will tell but I would expect that if one Endeavour train is upgraded more than 1 set will need to be done.

As for the poster above claiming that Endeavours and Explorers are the same, well
Things like door operation and crewing procedures are not,
Not a huge issue but this would need to be addressed.

Jono.

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