Cityrail Rail Extension to Bathurst

 
  boxythingy Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
OK,
My little contribution to this guess/rumorathon is this.

I have transsferred 2 Endeavour sets from Lithgow to Eveleigh after crew training.
They were 2808 and 2814 + mates on 2 seperate occassions over 2 weeks.
They are just "Endeavours" nothing special, normal hard smeg seats.
No-one at EXPSC has been told or saying (If they know) which set will be used on the Bathurst service.
Nor do they they know anything about retro fitting new seats OR any other creature comforts.

Now to take 1, 2- car set and say it can be used exsclusively on that run with its comfy seats etc, is near Impossible.
As the Bathurst service Might/will be a normal Endeavour set things often go wrong which require overnight servicing/repair at Eveleigh.
In this case what do you do?
Swing a spare set over with hard seats? Doubt it.
Time will tell but I would expect that if one Endeavour train is upgraded more than 1 set will need to be done.

As for the poster above claiming that Endeavours and Explorers are the same, well
Things like door operation and crewing procedures are not,
Not a huge issue but this would need to be addressed.

Jono.
"Johnny_Walton"


Thank you for the information  Very Happy

Sponsored advertisement

  wurx Lithgovian Ambassador-at-Large

Location: The mystical lost principality of Daptovia
....As for the poster above claiming that Endeavours and Explorers are the same, well
Things like door operation and crewing procedures are not....
"Johnny_Walton"

Just to expand on this for those who don't know, Endeavours & Xplorers are basically the same train, at say the nuts'n'bolts level; ie the same body shape, same engine & transmission, crew (driving) cab same (except the Xplorer has some kind of highfalutin' fancy roof vents in the crew cab that the Endeavour lacks).

Where they do differ is of course in livery (CityRail/CountryLink), internal fittings (the Xplorer is like a baby XPT seatwise, with paired XPT-style seats either side of the aisle; whereas the Endeavour has the Oscar style seats (I can't remember if they're 2 seats one side & 3 the other like an Oscar or 2 + 2 - this from someone who works Endeavours regularly Embarassed ....put it down to annual leave amnesia Laughing )). Also the Xplorer's external doors open on hinges and - I think - with something like a slam lock, and are manual; whereas the Endeavour has power operated plug doors (the one notable exception to this is the former TE2815, which is now EC???? - its plug doors give away its Endeavour origins Wink ).

And lastly the Xplorers have the additional "slave" car (whereas the Endeavours don't and AFAIK never did) - the one that has no crew (driving) cab. The slaves still have an engine & tranny though, meaning that regardless of the consist every car has its own power plant. This also means that the Xplorer consists can sometimes be an odd number of cars, whereas the Endeavour consists must always needs be even (strictly blocks of 2 cars).

I can't expand too much on the crewing procedures regards Xplorers due to ignorance, but presumably it would be similar to what goes for the XPT. In the Endeavour, the guard is in the other end of the train to the driver, except under special operational circumstances.

Did I miss anything, Jono?
  JoeT Assistant Commissioner

And lastly the Xplorers have the additional "slave" car (whereas the Endeavours don't and AFAIK never did) - the one that has no crew (driving) cab.
"wurx"


Lies!!! I remember many years ago I just happened to be at Menangle station one arvo and an Endeavour pulled up on its way north and it had an Xplorer power trailer in the middle. Laughing
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
(I can't remember if they're 2 seats one side & 3 the other like an Oscar or 2 + 2 - this from someone who works Endeavours regularly Embarassed ....put it down to annual leave amnesia Laughing )).
"wurx"


3+2, except for certain end rows that have 2+2 and a double-width aisle, IIRC.
  bowralcommuter Chief Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a Manly Ferry
 In the Endeavour, the guard is in the other end of the train to the driver, except under special operational circumstances.
"wurx"


Actually, I have observed many guards choose to sit with the driver when the service is just 1 set. 


  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
Just to expand on this for those who don't know, Endeavours & Xplorers are basically the same train, at say the nuts'n'bolts level; ie the same body shape, same engine & transmission, crew (driving) cab same (except the Xplorer has some kind of highfalutin' fancy roof vents in the crew cab that the Endeavour lacks).
"wurx"


That wa basically the point I was trying to make, about the only difference from a driving point of view is that the driver opens and closes the doors on the XPL whilst the guard does it on the END.

Also the Xplorer's external doors open on hinges and - I think - with something like a slam lock, and are manual; whereas the Endeavour has power operated plug doors (the one notable exception to this is the former TE2815, which is now EC???? - its plug doors give away its Endeavour origins Wink ).
"wurx"


Almost. All extermal doors are plug doors, operated by the crew, on the END. On the XPL all external doors EXCEPT those immediately behind the drivers cab are plug doors, operated by the crew. The doors behind the cab are CREW ONLY doors, not accessible to the passengers, and are inwardly opening manual doors.

Dave
  wurx Lithgovian Ambassador-at-Large

Location: The mystical lost principality of Daptovia
And lastly the Xplorers have the additional "slave" car (whereas the Endeavours don't and AFAIK never did) - the one that has no crew (driving) cab.
"wurx"


Lies!!! I remember many years ago I just happened to be at Menangle station one arvo and an Endeavour pulled up on its way north and it had an Xplorer power trailer in the middle. Laughing
"JoeT"

Lies of iggerance, MunroMan Razz
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
I saw a bit of a surprise at Mount Victoria at 10am this morning. Apparently some overhead wires weren't working properly so an Endeavour was run on the section between Lithgow and Mount Victoria. Please excuse the picture quality. 

Certainly a better alternative to using buses. 




  Murasaki Chief Train Controller

Location: Going sideways... in carriage DET-9216 (>ω<)
I saw a bit of a surprise at Mount Victoria at 10am this morning. Apparently some overhead wires weren't working properly so an Endeavour was run on the section between Lithgow and Mount Victoria. Please excuse the picture quality. 

Certainly a better alternative to using buses. 



"GeoffreyHansen"


 In before replies of inevitability or doom for the (usually) electrified section *ROFLing-evil-grin-face*. Also never would have I expected to read about trannies and slaves in these forums, let alone this one *ROFLing-evil-grin-face* (OFFS, now one can't _colour_ text in RP3?)Edit: Oh yeah, the hash symbols. *japanese-doh-face* Thanks, dear Watson. (^_^) As for the desparking bit, I wrote the "In B4" bit to take the mickey of a recurring complaint.   *ROFLing-evil-grin-face*
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
In before replies of inevitability or doom for the (usually) electrified section *ROFLing-evil-grin-face*. Also never would have I expected to read about trannies and slaves in these forums, let alone this one *ROFLing-evil-grin-face* (OFFS, now one can't _colour_ text in RP3?)
"Murasaki"


You forgot the hash, Murasaki-san.

Also, there are people on this forum who do believe that the line past Mt Victoria will be de-sparked; whether it's a good idea or not is open to heated debate, of course.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE


Also, there are people on this forum who do believe that the line past Mt Victoria will be de-sparked; whether it's a good idea or not is open to heated debate, of course.
"Watson374"


I was one who didn't, but having read that interesting article in the latest RD mag + Barry sticking to a promise to start up the Bathurst Explorer, well I'm convinced, its a goner. And as much as I hate seeing any route de-sparked and usually short sighted, this one almost makes sense.

- The V-sets are the only sparks that can run the route and no plans to replace them on like for like, so what will use?
- Aging infrastructure, yeah really so what. Yeah, but not strong enough for me.
- Cost of making the route friendly for OSCAR's.
- The number of users isn't that high so yo have an issue of running a train under uterlised along way or running a small train through a busy area?
- Has the use of more interchange services for the Sth Main had a negative impact on numbers in recent years?
- And the final noil in the coffen, the introduction of the Bathurst trains. The whole thing will work alot better running shuttle to/from Mt Vic with more trains running through to Bathurst.
- Further upgrades of the freight route via Forbes.

The elephant in the room is this. Where ever the track is impacted by clearances that are expensive to fix, single/gauntlet track!!!


  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
Would the interchange be planned just to be along the one platform like at Dapto. If so the platforms at Mount Victoria may not be long enough. for a V set and an Endeavour. Or would one run through before the other like the other day.

A problem with Mount Victoria station is that platform 2 has direct access to the street but is fairly  narrow which may be a challenge for passengers. Platform 1 is wider but has no disabled access as of yet. 

Also is one Endeavour set really enough to run from Mount Victoria to Bathurst?

Curiously the Dubbo service appeared to be an Explorer today. 
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Would the interchange be planned just to be along the one platform like at Dapto. If so the platforms at Mount Victoria may not be long enough. for a V set and an Endeavour. Or would one run through before the other like the other day.

A problem with Mount Victoria station is that platform 2 has direct access to the street but is fairly  narrow which may be a challenge for passengers. Platform 1 is wider but has no disabled access as of yet. 
Also is one Endeavour set really enough to run from Mount Victoria to Bathurst?

Curiously the Dubbo service appeared to be an Explorer today. 
"GeoffreyHansen"


I think a bit of work would need to be done, but not alot and the smart move would be to build a 4 car dock platform. There is (was) already a old stub siding/dock line running along the platform need the signal boc if I have google right. Just need to rebuild this into a dock or open platform siding. This way flat cross platform access and no need to extend the main platform which won't be cheap and juts makes people walk further.

Also makes it easy for an incoming spark to arrive and then head off to the sidings to clear the line and provide a suitable easy layover point for the DMU crew and eliminate shunting back and forwards. The siding could be fitted with the required utility points for power, water etc.

Is one set enough, depends on frequency, might need a 3 car set or a two pairs?

V-sets should also be retired by then as well as the introduction of the DMU is to enable the V-sets to sent for scrap. The replacement 8 car sets are a fair bit shorter than an 8 car V-set, 1-2 cars?

My guess is assuming no other changes, the Endeavours could be pulled from Newcastle completely with this move with replacement new replacement Hunters. Why all Endeavours pulled from Hunter, because I'm placing $100 that Dubbo XPT will disapear at the same time and be replaced permanently with DMU End/Xpler to be part of a total outer western line revamp with perhaps something happening on the XPT front or simply enabling more servicing time for the aging fleet.


  Sector2Driver Locomotive Fireman

Just as it may be of interest to you guys rumour is it was so expensive mainly because at least one of the sets being pushed into service had been sitting at Eveleigh for some time and had suffered serious canabilisation to keep the other Endevours running.  Like most of the combined Railcorp fleet parts are scarce and anything sitting idle will get stripped for parts to keep other services running.  Also dont expect the Oscar seats to disappear.

I likely wont be back to argue if im right or not so take it or leave it.  Just what i heard.
  Indefatigable Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney



Curiously the Dubbo service appeared to be an Explorer today. 
"GeoffreyHansen"


Actually Geoff, the replacement was planned: http://www.countrylink.info/service_status/trackwork

They mentioned earlier this month that it would happen each Wednesday (if I remember correctly) throughout August to alleviate pressure on the XPT fleet.

XPT due to be similarly substituted by XPL tomorrow too.

Cheers,
Ben
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE



Curiously the Dubbo service appeared to be an Explorer today. 
"GeoffreyHansen"


Actually Geoff, the replacement was planned: http://www.countrylink.info/service_status/trackwork

They mentioned earlier this month that it would happen each Wednesday (if I remember correctly) throughout August to alleviate pressure on the XPT fleet.

XPT due to be similarly substituted by XPL tomorrow too.

Cheers,
Ben
"Indefatigable"


The XPL are in plenty supply this month due to trackwork on NW route, so 5 cars extra should be spare. So may as well use them to give some spare time to XPT MTCE
  djf01 Chief Commissioner



Also, there are people on this forum who do believe that the line past Mt Victoria will be de-sparked; whether it's a good idea or not is open to heated debate, of course.
"Watson374"


I was one who didn't, but having read that interesting article in the latest RD mag + Barry sticking to a promise to start up the Bathurst Explorer, well I'm convinced, its a goner. And as much as I hate seeing any route de-sparked and usually short sighted, this one almost makes sense.

- The V-sets are the only sparks that can run the route and no plans to replace them on like for like, so what will use?
- Aging infrastructure, yeah really so what. Yeah, but not strong enough for me.
- Cost of making the route friendly for OSCAR's.
- The number of users isn't that high so yo have an issue of running a train under uterlised along way or running a small train through a busy area?
- Has the use of more interchange services for the Sth Main had a negative impact on numbers in recent years?
- And the final noil in the coffen, the introduction of the Bathurst trains. The whole thing will work alot better running shuttle to/from Mt Vic with more trains running through to Bathurst.
- Further upgrades of the freight route via Forbes.

"RTT_Rules"





For all those reasons and then some.

In terms of fleet management, Lithgow currently gets a 120min service frequency, and 2 V sets are semi-permanently deployed servicing this one station (effectively).  Not the same 2 of course.  When NSW Trains comes into effect, there is likely to be some route rationalisation IMHO where CityRail and CL routes currently overlap.   That will free up some Endeavours.  But NSW Trains will probably be short of sufficient OSCARS to meet it's CSO requirements of operating frequent services in the Hunter and Illawarra, while still meeting it's commuter obligations with it's surviving V set fleet.  A single Endeavour set running Lithgow-Bathurst could provide a 60min frequency and free up a spark set.  But more likely, 2 Endeavours could provide a 120 min service Mt Vic to Bathurst.


The elephant in the room is this. Where ever the track is impacted by clearances that are expensive to fix, single/gauntlet track!!!


Not only do I think that de-sparking is (and should be) on the cards, I think converting to single track should be too.  4 freighters, one XPT and a 120min local service - does that *really* need double track?  There is really no sensible reason to keep maintaining the overhead, and certainly no good reason to re-capitalise and replace it when the time comes in the not too distant.

This would allow the remaining track maintenance to fall into the CRIA's (or whatever replaces it) jurisdiction, which (AFAIK) is maintained to different (ie lower) standards than Railcorp do directly in the CityRail zone under contract currently to John Holland. 

If(/when) I'm running NSW Trains I'd also be looking at single tracking the sparks in the rest of mountains too, with the objective of getting ARTC to take on the non sparked bits and let the feds help subsidise the line.







  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Would the interchange be planned just to be along the one platform like at Dapto. If so the platforms at Mount Victoria may not be long enough. for a V set and an Endeavour. Or would one run through before the other like the other day.

A problem with Mount Victoria station is that platform 2 has direct access to the street but is fairly  narrow which may be a challenge for passengers. Platform 1 is wider but has no disabled access as of yet. 
Also is one Endeavour set really enough to run from Mount Victoria to Bathurst?

Curiously the Dubbo service appeared to be an Explorer today. 
"GeoffreyHansen"


I think a bit of work would need to be done, but not alot and the smart move would be to build a 4 car dock platform.
"RTT_Rules"


The platforms at Mt Vic are 195m long.  An 8 car V set 200m, and an Endeavour 50m.  To make space for 30m of Endeavour on the platform (just front door unavailable) the rear car and the rear doors of the second from rear car of the V set would be off the platforms too.  ie no biggie. 

It would have to be done on platform 1 because of the locations of the facing and trailing crossovers, east and west of Mt Vic respectively.  Plus only the UP road has Bi_di signalling.  The main space issue is the signals.  Mr Google tells me it is 245m between the east and west facing signals, which is just a fraction short of what's needed to squeeze in both trains concurrently.


  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
 4 freighters, one XPT and a 120min local service  
"djf01"

The "120 minute" local service works out at 26 V set movements/day, an average of 10 freighters movements per day, and 20 coal movements per day.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

 4 freighters, one XPT and a 120min local service  
"djf01"

The "120 minute" local service works out at 26 V set movements/day, an average of 10 freighters movements per day, and 20 coal movements per day.
"johnboy"


Are there *really* 20 coal movements a day across the mountains?
  gilberations Assistant Commissioner

Location: Lithgow
yes
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
 4 freighters, one XPT and a 120min local service  
"djf01"

The "120 minute" local service works out at 26 V set movements/day, an average of 10 freighters movements per day, and 20 coal movements per day.
"johnboy"


Are there *really* 20 coal movements a day across the mountains?
"djf01"


Sure are, if not more.

Dave
(Katoomba cab driver)
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

Lets see now, we have Clarence coalies, Lidsdale coalies, Baal Bone coalies, Charbon coalies, Airley coalies, containers from Blayney (2 or 3 different ones), Manildra wheat, Warren containers, Perth containers and assorted services to Dubbo, Condobolin , Bathurst and Whyalla steel.I think you will find that at times the average is 11-12 Up and the same on the Down each day plus I/Us, I think we would have a huge queue at times if this idiotic idea of singling the line was to happen. Bye the way, I think you will find there is no hope of this happening, as the operators pay big money for their allocated tables, so why would you remove this source of income from the state? There is no Bi-Directional signalling at Mt Vic, anything other than main line are shunt signals.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Lets see now, we have Clarence coalies, Lidsdale coalies, Baal Bone coalies, Charbon coalies, Airley coalies, containers from Blayney (2 or 3 different ones), Manildra wheat, Warren containers, Perth containers and assorted services to Dubbo, Condobolin , Bathurst and Whyalla steel.I think you will find that at times the average is 11-12 Up and the same on the Down each day plus I/Us, I think we would have a huge queue at times if this idiotic idea of singling the line was to happen. Bye the way, I think you will find there is no hope of this happening, as the operators pay big money for their allocated tables, so why would you remove this source of income from the state? There is no Bi-Directional signalling at Mt Vic, anything other than main line are shunt signals.
"Throughwestmail"


I sure hope you guys  are right. 

Very roughly, 1mil tonnes a year is 1 train.  Port Kembla takes about 7mil tonnes a year via rail, 2-3 of that is local, so 5 trains a day tops from the western coalfields, but I thought it was 4.

The western coalfields dig up ~10mil tonnes a year, but I think ~6mil tonnes of that is burned in the Wallerwerrang and Mt Piper power stations.  I'm sure I've missed a mine or two, but I make that 4 or 5 trains a day, each way. 

Does not Whyalla steel and most other western traffic run via Coota these days?

Last time I was up there (and I spent 8 very long hours at the "Day Our with Thomas"), I saw bugger all freight traffic.  I made it 2 (short) container trains a day (I presumed to Dubbo, but couldn't be sure) and a few coalies



http://www.pkct.com.au/rail/

http://www.de.com.au/ArticleDocuments/135/2011%20Sustainability%20Report%20.pdf.aspx

http://www.centennialcoal.com.au/

As I said, I really hope I'm wrong on this re the freight traffic levels. 

If there is significant interstate freight traffic on this corridor, it would make a lot of sense to have ARTC take over it's maintenance.  And if not, then I still think it makes sense for the line to maintained by the NSW rural rail authority (whatever that turns out to be) rather than having all the costs lumped in with operating commuter trains in Sydney.  The reason it's not now is down to the sparks, not the usage.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
...

As I said, I really hope I'm wrong on this re the freight traffic levels. 

If there is significant interstate freight traffic on this corridor, it would make a lot of sense to have ARTC take over it's maintenance.  And if not, then I still think it makes sense for the line to maintained by the NSW rural rail authority (whatever that turns out to be) rather than having all the costs lumped in with operating commuter trains in Sydney.  The reason it's not now is down to the sparks, not the usage.
"djf01"



Now that we're off on a tangent. Wink

John Holland Rail ( a private company) now manages the CRN track on behalf of Transport for NSW (the 'Authority'), CRIA no longer exists. ARTC (itself not an 'authority') manages the overland route via Coota as part of the DIRN lease. The mix thru western Sydney and run up the mountains wasn't exactly made for efficiency. Back in the 1990's the overland route became increasingly popular as trains became longer. This more so when NRC happened.  The overland route has recently been upgraded.

Also once the SSFL is finshed it's one less mob to deal with.





Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.