They don't deserve fifty bux to spent on on the dump, most people drive or catch the train to the foreshore on a Sunday, if they make it harder they won't even bother.
Is the Port theirs to sell anyway?
If its a public assett isn't there going to be shortfalls elsewhere when the money dries up?

Would building an interchange (ie. Intercity, regional, country, light rail, bus.) at Woodville Junction be better than Wickham or Broadmeadow?

Is the Port theirs to sell anyway?

NOOO!!

It's basically stealing property that the "employees" don't own, and selling it without the owners permission.

Would building an interchange (ie. Intercity, regional, country, light rail, bus.) at Woodville Junction be better than Wickham or Broadmeadow?

They already have one, it's [size=2]here on maps[/size].
But read the underlined part circled http://flickr.com/gp/34023326@N02/6dj063

And please don't forget that Andrew Cornwell admitted on the radio that light rail is only a MAYBE OPTION.

But be it a bus or light rail to Newcastle Station, it means a terminus at both Newcastle & this so called terminus at Wickham.

It's all a smoke screen so they can sell the Port ASAP.
Give Newcastle a big promise of a new rail network in exchange for selling the largest and most lucrative coal port in the world, and then renege on the deal when it comes time to deliver.

Showtime, you are no doubt probably correct, but if McCloy and his other developer mates are NOT after the rail land, then why is McCloy asking how quickly it can be done?

No doubt McCloy is not privvy to the State Governments little plan.
After all, he is only the Mayor and no one in local government would be let into the inner circle of the big decision makers, so he will still be going along with the idea that there will be plenty of building work to be won should the light rail go ahead and also some rail land to become available for "redevelopment".

After all, he is only the Mayor and no one in local government would be let into the inner circle of the big decision makers

Oh no?? Read on

Actually he is privvy, as he had a big fat snarly smile on his big mouth when he was asked if a decision had been made on the Newcastle Rail Line.

The Liberals told him the decision BEFORE any of the public were allowed to know. It was meant to be a secret between him & the Liberals before the official announcement. You could see it on the his face "Oh goody, goody, I got what I wanted, and can't wait until I get my greedy developer mits on that rail land." Everyone could see that his smile was the same as rubbing his hands together with glee.

McCloy is a "Defacto Liberal" under the guise of an independent, similar to some of the federal independents. Why? Because Tim Owen said our party will be standing a Liberal candidate in the Newcastle council elections. But their was no Liberals on the ballot paper. But the Liberals & Owen said they have "endorsed" McCloy" in the council elections to represent them.

At a meeting about the candidates, McCloy was very offensive, and insulting to one member of the audience that tried to speak, he upset her, and she walked out. Search Youtube for this title:
"Jeff McCloy laughing at a Placard waving smell individual". (I'd post the direct link, but a direct link would show his face!)

Search Youtube for this title: "Jeff McCloy laughing at a Placard waving smell individual". (I'd post the direct link, but a direct link would show his face!)

Its even worse when you read the first comment... >

These absolute morons running this thing (Newcastle) , deserve to be kicked out of any parliament or decision making body ever created to deal with NSW's second biggest city.  How shortsighted can you get when you go and rip out a well performing and massively important rail link, so you can go get yourself a few million for some cheap land overlooking the biggest coal port on the planet!, plus the wonderful sight of the Kooragang Island steelworks and Orica chemical plant. Who lets people like this run the place?!...

I know I'm late to the party, but I just came across this unbelievable thread. How could anyone possibly think this was a good idea? The people responsible are as incompetent as they come.

I know I'm late to the party, but I just came across this unbelievable thread. How could anyone possibly think this was a good idea? The people responsible are as incompetent as they come

The simple factor of money. If some greedy developers or politicians can get some valuable land to make the money, and all they have to do is pretend the rail line isnt needed, they will do so. And then they can enjoy their filthy money whilst the general public suffer from lack of descent public transport.

I'm not sure if this should be in the news about the budget (or should I say "developer encouraged budget", if you get my drift)

I have just been to the Save Our Rail site, and they have released a media release. See: [size=2]http://saveourrail.org.au/?p=648[/size], Title: Media Release 24/06/2013 - Save Our Rail keeps on track

1. Tim Owen mislead (I prefer to use the "L" word) the audience when he spoke to a radio host called Richard King. He told the host that he has ALWAYS supported light rail, however on the Graeme Gilbert talk back show last Tuesday week, the day of the budget (or should we say "Day of the developer "encouraged" budget?, if you get my drift), he told HIM that my preferred option has ALWAYS been for his words "Rapid bus system" between Wickham & Newcastle, and last Friday, Gladys has now not really committed to any terminus.

I taped both interviews (best to say for research purposes), so I have the exacts words of what Tim Owen said. And both of these comments that differ are AFTER the state budget last week.

This is first hand information. At the rally to save the heavy rail to Newcastle in February, the Maitland Mercury correctly pointed out that they had between 250 - 300 people - that was on a weekday, and that at something called Politics in the Pub (PITP) had in excess of 110 people about the same subject, but Owen mislead parliament in an official Hansard, and used the figures of what the "journalist" Michelle Harris falsely said 80 at the rally in February, and only 7 people at the PITP meeting.

2. The Newcastle City Council (NCC) councillors the other day voted seven-to-six, that any talk and/or debate that is NOT directly related to the council, such as state issues, is now no longer permitted. But is seems as though McCloy is a hypocrite, as he has in the local paper, commented on a state issue, that being that he wants light rail down Hunter St, which brings me to point 3.

3. If McCloy (& GPT for that matter) is still not AFTER the rail land, then why has McCloy stated that he wants light rail down Hunter St instead?

I wonder how the developers "influenced" the state government?

I have do doubt that Tim Owen will be talking to his Liberal-oriented mate Gilbert tonight, in support of this destruction of transport in Newcastle. On the night of the state budget, it sounded like that this Gilbert was talking from a script given to him by the Liberals.

That website(http://saveourrail.org.au/?p=648) put it brilliantly. The useless liberals have no plan for the transport interchange. All they want is to sell the biggest coal port in the world so they can get their money, and all they have to do is make stupid false promises about light rail and buses, (which are useless ideas anyway). Newcastle would be far better of with the basic suggestions listed:

• The express "Newcastle Flyer" to Sydney
• The "Cessnock Express" to Cessnock
• The link to newcastle Airport and Port Stephens
• Links to Scone and out west
• Links to Taree and points North

With all these very good suggestions , Newcastle could become the next great station. It is after all, a beautiful, historic station as it is, and to lose it would be absolutely devastating.

I think point 3 possibly proves that this McCloy is STILL after the rail land, & now it looks like he is a hypocrite as well, as most of the NCC voted that any talk/debate about non-council issues is now banned "indefinitely", and as we know transport is a state issue, unless it's actually funded by the council.

EDIT: This here ([size=2]http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1600135/mccloy-lays-out-own-rail-plan/?cs=305[/size]) proves our point that we still believe that he IS after the rail land. Read the following quote:

"Mr McCloy dismissed concerns that moving the rail line would free up the existing corridor for development, saying he wanted it left "for green or recreational use"

BULL, we all what he (& his GPT mates) are after. If that McCloy is not after the rail land still, then why is the last part "for green or recreational use" in quotes?

That website(http://saveourrail.org.au/?p=648) put it brilliantly. The useless liberals have no plan for the transport interchange. All they want is to sell the biggest coal port in the world so they can get their money, and all they have to do is make stupid false promises about light rail and buses, (which are useless ideas anyway). Newcastle would be far better of with the basic suggestions listed:

• The express "Newcastle Flyer" to Sydney
• The "Cessnock Express" to Cessnock
• The link to newcastle Airport and Port Stephens
• Links to Scone and out west
• Links to Taree and points North

With all these very good suggestions , Newcastle could become the next great station. It is after all, a beautiful, historic station as it is, and to lose it would be absolutely devastating.

The whole problem comes back to the aspect of "What is in the CBD to attract people?"".  I am all for the retention of the line as I have stated often enough however I would actually question some of those suggestions as to their real viability.

The Flier is probably a great idea & I would endorse that especially if it had minimal stops along the route, a stopping train as far as Wyong, & it goes into #1 platform for the flier to stop there, with flier non stop after leaving NCLE, then next stop Hornsby - Strathfield - Central, perhaps Epping.

The idea of a LR or similar to the airport & Pt Stephens is worthy however, what cost would it be considering the numbers who would use it regularly?  There are fairly regular buses to & from both locations & would meet their needs for some time to come, maybe for longer term future though.

The Cessnock Express I doubt would really work, if it is to NCLE, nor even if it ran to Sydney as per the old version.  Even when the SMR had its own passenger services they were barely patronised & a reason for their demise, both as loco hauled & the older DMU's & remember the SMR was very pro the coalfield area & serving them.  The problem that Cessnock has is that it relies on the plonk trade in other words bused tourists in order for survival, so how would train loads of bleary eyed tourists would go by rail to Cessnock & then change to a local bar stopping service?

Likewise How many residents would travel to NCLE & for what?  Maitland as far as shopping is concerned has as much if not more to offer than NCLE for those living around Cessnock, I doubt if there would be any real options for commuters to make such a proposal viable of the service, as how many work in there anyway?

The thought of serving Taree, Scone & beyond is worth considering, however there exists the problem of how to fit such services onto what are basically saturated lines as it is now. Taree used to have a 620cl daily service to NCLE in the morning & return in the afternoon, it worked ok & was terminated when it really started to show potential, as the 2 cars were often not enough especially for those from the lower end of the line such as Dungog using it & having to stand for most of the journey. I honestly doubt if it could be resurrected again though.

Tamworth could work, however, but I would see more potential in a day service to Sydney from Tamworth returning late in the afternoon, but the HV lines beyond Maitland would be hard pressed to find room for such a service.

Outside of this & on the score of Cessnock, Taree & Tamworth, the first 2 now have an almost complete motorway to get them to Sydney, ok the new link road is still being built & Bulladelah is soon to be open which means the drive time will be & are even now dramatically reduced.  Its only an hour from Cessnock to Wyong by road now, using the old road for near half of the journey. Taree is just over 1 1/2 hrs from NCLE ATM, with the highway becoming dual carriageway all the way very soon, it will cut the journey by another 10-15 minutes.

Rail services could not compete with that & most would elect to drive anyway, even the bus that runs from/to Taree via Forster & the lakes gets few passengers & hardly worth running, that is if it still runs anyway.

The thing is though, it still comes down to the initial question of what is at NCLE that would bring people there?  No hospital close to the station, no major shops, only a stack of coffee shops that seemingly change hands fairly frequently or for those who only want to work on weekends.

Certainly the CBD needs revitalising, but what with or what can be done to bring people back there?  Shops will not bring them back as there are too many within a reasonable drive with plenty of parking, the beaches are great for 6 months of the year but what of the other?  All aspects of heavy, medium & light industry & exporting have gone & the way the modern foreshore has been redeveloped what hope is there for that, unless some sort of working museum - come export type business be set up on what open wharf frontages may be left, but that would bring in the critics who would becry it does not fit in with the family green atmosphere of the foreshore & Nobbies.

If nothing else at least the SOR people are thinking & trying to promote the area & the fact that the retention of the existing line is very much central to the success of it.

I am sorry if I sound negative but they are real aspects that need to be dealt with.

I am sorry if I sound negative but they are real aspects that need to be dealt with

Your views are appreciated and you do make some valuable comments.

Rail is always going to compete with roads, and it is that which means rail must seek to become more competitive.  Rail will probably remain a much faster way in and out of the CBD, due to the tiny roads and congestion.

The Flier is probably a great idea & I would endorse that especially if it had minimal stops along the route

If the flyer was implemented in this way it could bring about a desire to use the train between the two cities. Everybody for this idea knows it has to be minimal stops (Central-Strafield-Epping-Hornsby-Gosford-Wyong-Fassifern-Broadmeadow-Newcastle), which could potentially see much higher patronage.

Certainly the CBD needs revitalizing, but what with or what can be done to bring people back there?

The CBD does really need to be revitalized, and once that happens Newcastle may become great again.

Your views are appreciated and you do make some valuable comments.

Rail is always going to compete with roads, and it is that which means rail must seek to become more competitive.  Rail will probably remain a much faster way in and out of the CBD, due to the tiny roads and congestion.

If the flyer was implemented in this way it could bring about a desire to use the train between the two cities. Everybody for this idea knows it has to be minimal stops (Central-Strafield-Epping-Hornsby-Gosford-Wyong-Fassifern-Broadmeadow-Newcastle), which could potentially see much higher patronage.


The CBD does really need to be revitalized, and once that happens Newcastle may become great again.

Thanks for the comments.

Rail will always compete with any other means of getting from here to there & back again, & for most its the sheer element of convenience as well as time taken in travel. On both counts rail has benefits as well as demerits.  The thing is that roads are having untold of sums of money thrown at them & until petrol reaches the point of only being affordable for necessity use, it will in the main be the main means of transit, especially over certain distances & locations, even when there is an attraction at the other end.

I pondered deeply about Fassifern as a stop for the flier, & being honest I wonder how many passages really use the services there, its the reason I have the flier stopping only at main stations, & even cutting BMD out of the equation as an all stations service could readily run prior to the flier service & as I said go into Wyong #1 Platform & allow passengers to change to the flier there.  The flier could readily run down the stopper with an arrival scheduled with a 3 minute departure after the stopping at Wyong.

The only reason I include Epping in the fliers stops is because of the Macquarie line, but again I think that if a Macquarie line train was to immediately follow the flier ex Hornsby departing from the opposite platform that the flier arrives at would provide a better service that the flier is intended to provide.

The feature point of the flier is by definition of its name, & that is fast & limited stops, that is how the flier always was seen as, (prior to becoming just another short north commuter train). If the concept is to work then its best allowed to perform to its potential, & even to the point of having only 3 services each direction per day, with the first up service intended for those who work in Sydney, & the last evening service as their commute home. In fact, I would even go as far as to make the service open for booked seats especially those two trains, & offer long term rates for it as well.

I also would contend that one weekends that the service could be a tourist driven train starting with the morning down flier & afternoon return service, & dare I open up the worm can & say it could well be used as loco hauled service & if steam involved an ideal for training & continued means of gaining & retaining experience.

I am also of the belief that the train that stops all stations from NCLE - Gosford should then be a limited stop from Gosford

Thanks for the comments. Rail will always compete with any other means of getting from here to there & back again, & for most its the sheer element of convenience as well as time taken in travel. On both counts rail has benefits as well as demerits. The thing is that roads are having untold of sums of money thrown at them & until petrol reaches the point of only being affordable for necessity use, it will in the main be the main means of transit, especially over certain distances & locations, even when there is an attraction at the other end. I pondered deeply about Fassifern as a stop for the flier, & being honest I wonder how many passages really use the services there, its the reason I have the flier stopping only at main stations, & even cutting BMD out of the equation as an all stations service could readily run prior to the flier service & as I said go into Wyong #1 Platform & allow passengers to change to the flier there. The flier could readily run down the stopper with an arrival scheduled with a 3 minute departure after the stopping at Wyong. The only reason I include Epping in the fliers stops is because of the Macquarie line, but again I think that if a Macquarie line train was to immediately follow the flier ex Hornsby departing from the opposite platform that the flier arrives at would provide a better service that the flier is intended to provide. The feature point of the flier is by definition of its name, & that is fast & limited stops, that is how the flier always was seen as, (prior to becoming just another short north commuter train). If the concept is to work then its best allowed to perform to its potential, & even to the point of having only 3 services each direction per day, with the first up service intended for those who work in Sydney, & the last evening service as their commute home. In fact, I would even go as far as to make the service open for booked seats especially those two trains, & offer long term rates for it as well. I also would contend that one weekends that the service could be a tourist driven train starting with the morning down flier & afternoon return service, & dare I open up the worm can & say it could well be used as loco hauled service & if steam involved an ideal for training & continued means of gaining & retaining experience. I am also of the belief that the train that stops all stations from NCLE - Gosford should then be a limited stop from Gosford

Very well put my friend, people on Railpage would make better transport ministers than we've ever had.

I agree you would have to consider the stopping patterns, due to general patronage as well as connections to over services.  This may not be the thread to discuss this, but even so its good to see there are people with half a brain who are able to consider the trains needs, rather than just repaint them and say they're fixed.

Another stupid "Hurry-up-to-destroy-Newcastle-Rail-Line-by-a-"person"-who-was-chosen-to-be-in-the-anti-rail-mob-clowns: http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1604806/opinion-blessed-beautiful-now-lets-get-busy/?cs=305

PS: As I checked & linked to the other day, according to the Save Our Rail site, they are still keeping on with the fight.

Since McCloy was told about this by the Liberals before anyone else, I stick this here.

Surely this article from the Newcastle Herald (see: [size=2][font=Calibri, sans-serif]http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1639979/mccloys-vision-reach-for-the-sky/?cs=305[/font][/size]) proves what he and his GPT mates are after.

Yet another "meeting in the cupboard" that the residents weren't allowed to know about.

But any meeting that is put on by either the government / HBC / HDC / the defacto Liberal McCloy, etc that is so called to "revive" Newcastle CBD, means another meeting of "Hurry Up, we want the rail line cut as soon as possible", and add for McCloy & GPT mates that we can't wait to get our hands on the rail land.

So what is the problem? They are planning to remove the under utilised heavy rail system and replace it with a light rail system on the same alignment.  The hub of Newcastle should now be Brioadmeadow, not the end of a branch line out in the middle of nowhere

So what is the problem? They are planning to remove the under utilised heavy rail system and replace it with a light rail system on the same alignment.  The hub of Newcastle should now be Brioadmeadow, not the end of a branch line out in the middle of nowhere

What rubbish.  While BMD does have the benefit of being the main station for country trains to the Northern lines in both directions by locating it as the main station to serve the current stations by a LR system will do more to bring down tourists as well as locals who commute for work & leisure along the line.  The cost of converting to LR could be very well spent better removing the only real problems on the line & that is the two road crossings by closing the one at Civic & building a overpass at Wickham for the Industrial Dr & old Pacific Highway connection.

With announcements that there is to be a new University training facility in the CBD area, that is precisely something that will attract more who need the access by HR, if the high rise of smoke & mirrors goes in, instead of looking at some decent examples of good architecture all that is to be seen is more slabs of high concrete interspersed with reflective glass. Even if that happens, then HR will provide more PT options & more convenient than the LR & change at BMD, which will add to the travel times of all those using it.

The aspect of under utilised rail, is abject crap, as has been shown by those who present true figures of those who use the line on a regular basis.  Using that as a reason should also mean that a committee need be set up & determine the minimum number of passengers in a given 24x7 period for each & every station in the state, & that includes the three primary metropolitan areas of NSW, any station that does not come up to that figure should be closed down & demolished in order that it is then lost for ever, to ensure that happens any island platform would have its tracks straight railed to ensure its death.

For those who travel by rail now to NCLE, I can well imagine few will continue to use it if they have to change to a tram at BMD & then go to their destination by it, at the very least it will add 10 minutes just to change at BMD without the extra running times around from Woodville, by the time the train got to BMD in the new world order it would almost at Wickham, having already stopped at Hamilton.  Thus another 5 or more minutes added, combine that twice a day for 5 days, the convenience of the car looks much better.  Hunter & the associated roads into the CBD are already hard pressed with traffic & then again there is the parking spaces to be provided.

Very Very short sighted indeed, you should stand for government with your vision.

I dont think an extra 10 mins of travel time will kill anyone

I dont think an extra 10 mins of travel time will kill anyone

I didn't say it would, but I said 10 minutes at minimum to just change trains at BMD, add to that what I said regarding the overall running times involved in the diversion it will add much more. Besides saying 10 minutes is quite conservative at best.

Likewise the overall aspect of the time is not just on the single journey but the return & for every day that its used.  Rail is without doubt the real answer to many problems for commuters but the biggest problem that rail faces, or dare I say Public transport in all forms is that of convenience & reliability, with reliability the biggest aspect deals with the length of time it takes to travel. Add even 10 minutes to the journey time while the aspect of unreliability of late trains, & missed connections is a real killer in getting people to use PT both new users & more so getting old ones back.

I was actually involved with quite a few joint working parties into various areas of the railways, including the passenger side of things, & one of the big things that was a turn off & a reason why people turned away from using PT was when TT's where changed which often meant instead of having a single uninterrupted journey, they were forced to change trains, which often meant a platform change. In Peak hour times, it was a huge turn off & why they went back to the convenience of driving to work.

This whole concept does nothing really for the real future of NCLE, & as I said the money involved in the conversion could be far better spent elsewhere, they could get the new crossings up, & with money left over to go towards new Interurban trains to provide much better comfort & perhaps faster times between Sydney & NCLE.  After all despite what many who live in NCLE think, the region is still part of NSW & does affect many people who go there for many reasons, albeit not on a daily basis.