Questions that you've always been too embarrassed to ask

 
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Not sure if this is a question i should be embarrassed to ask or if it not so ill defer here.

Ive seen a few references to a line from Hurstville to points north, including Strathfield etc.  Though outside of transport master plan wish lists, nothing concrete about what assessment has been done on the feasibility of this line.  Can anyone point me to anything?

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  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Just a question I've been thinking about for a bit.

Why don't PN have EMD units lead their intermodal trains?   The AN, 82, G, LDP and TT units are always 'in the shafts' with the standard NR leading.   Is it ergonomics, comfort or just that is the way it is?  
It is not like other divisions are allergic to EMD units.


Thanks.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Just a question I've been thinking about for a bit.

Why don't PN have EMD units lead their intermodal trains?   The AN, 82, G, LDP and TT units are always 'in the shafts' with the standard NR leading.   Is it ergonomics, comfort or just that is the way it is?  
It is not like other divisions are allergic to EMD units.


Thanks.
Donald
The cabs aren't up to the intermodal EA standards.

edit: ANs can lead but they rarely do.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Just a question I've been thinking about for a bit.

Why don't PN have EMD units lead their intermodal trains?   The AN, 82, G, LDP and TT units are always 'in the shafts' with the standard NR leading.   Is it ergonomics, comfort or just that is the way it is?  
It is not like other divisions are allergic to EMD units.


Thanks.
The cabs aren't up to the intermodal EA standards.

edit: ANs can lead but they rarely do.
Fatty
Thank you.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
OK continuing with the thread title....................
Hope that someone knows what EA stands for.
I assume that the Kenyan 'East African Standard' newspaper has nothing to do with it.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
OK continuing with the thread title....................
Hope that someone knows what EA stands for.
I assume that the Kenyan 'East African Standard' newspaper has nothing to do with it.
YM-Mundrabilla
Enterprise Agreement.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
OK continuing with the thread title....................
Hope that someone knows what EA stands for.
I assume that the Kenyan 'East African Standard' newspaper has nothing to do with it.
YM-Mundrabilla
What about YM?
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Just a question I've been thinking about for a bit.

Why don't PN have EMD units lead their intermodal trains?   The AN, 82, G, LDP and TT units are always 'in the shafts' with the standard NR leading.   Is it ergonomics, comfort or just that is the way it is?  
It is not like other divisions are allergic to EMD units.


Thanks.
The cabs aren't up to the intermodal EA standards.

edit: ANs can lead but they rarely do.
Thank you.
Donald
There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

OK continuing with the thread title....................
Hope that someone knows what EA stands for.
I assume that the Kenyan 'East African Standard' newspaper has nothing to do with it.
What about YM?
james.au
Yo' Mama.

Common ghetto insult abbreviated by YM-Mundrabilla to avoid offending any sensitive souls on the site.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
I thought YM stood for Young Master:lol:
  62440 Chief Commissioner

OK continuing with the thread title....................
Hope that someone knows what EA stands for.
I assume that the Kenyan 'East African Standard' newspaper has nothing to do with it.
Enterprise Agreement.
Fatty
Engineers Australia aka The Institution of Engineers, Australia
  Trans-Siberian Station Master

Location: Krasnoyarsk, Siberia
Just a question I've been thinking about for a bit.

Why don't PN have EMD units lead their intermodal trains?   The AN, 82, G, LDP and TT units are always 'in the shafts' with the standard NR leading.   Is it ergonomics, comfort or just that is the way it is?  
It is not like other divisions are allergic to EMD units.


Thanks.
The cabs aren't up to the intermodal EA standards.

edit: ANs can lead but they rarely do.
Thank you.
There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives.
Fatty

"There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives."
Fatty


IF that rule exists in NSW....:roll:correctly, the NR (AC traction) ought to be buried in the consist and not in the lead Rolling Eyes...!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

"There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives."
Fatty


IF that rule exists in NSW....:roll:correctly, the NR (AC traction) ought to be buried in the consist and not in the lead Rolling Eyes...!
Trans-Siberian
NR locos are DC.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives.

"There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives."
Fatty


IF that rule exists in NSW....:roll:correctly, the NR (AC traction) ought to be buried in the consist and not in the lead Rolling Eyes...!
Trans-Siberian

You obviously know far more than me about these things. /s
  Trans-Siberian Station Master

Location: Krasnoyarsk, Siberia
Just a question I've been thinking about for a bit.

Why don't PN have EMD units lead their intermodal trains?   The AN, 82, G, LDP and TT units are always 'in the shafts' with the standard NR leading.   Is it ergonomics, comfort or just that is the way it is?  
It is not like other divisions are allergic to EMD units.


Thanks.
The cabs aren't up to the intermodal EA standards.

edit: ANs can lead but they rarely do.
Fatty

The cabs aren't up to the intermodal EA standards.
Fatty


Incorrect to make such a sweeping statement....indicating that the EA is the instrument determining operational requirements; because, PN does have EMD locos leading....e.g.:
  • exMildura - XR Class, 81 Class, G Class;
  • exWarrnambool on WestVic train - G Class (in the past A Class) ...!

Also, the LDP's (aka TT Class) brother locos working with other companies lead train consists...e.g.: SCT class, SSR Class, GWA Class and similarly, G Class...!

Even though ALL of the following classes; at some time, have been lead units on Inter-modal train consists...."especially when they were new"....
  • AN's built 1992-1993
  • BL's built 1983-1986;
  • DL's built 1988-1990;
  • EL's built 1990-1991;
  • G's built 1984-1989;
  • 81 Class 1982-1985, 1991

Importantly it meets Union Driver requirements of:
  • on-board cafe bar & kitchen with Nespresso machine, fridge/freezer
  • plus stereo sound system with disco balls & laser lights

You'll find that the truth is closer to operational reasons - perhaps because the NR Class has features such as:
  • "variable horsepower" meaning the power output of the engine had three different settings of 2,850 hp (2,130 kW), 3,560 hp (2,650 kW) or 4,020 hp (3,000 kW), resulting in a fuel-efficient locomotive & flexible loco;
  • the cab has two separate sets of controls, which allow it be driven either "A" end or "B" end leading making a flexible loco.
  Trans-Siberian Station Master

Location: Krasnoyarsk, Siberia
There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives.

"There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives."
Fatty


IF that rule exists in NSW....:roll:correctly, the NR (AC traction) ought to be buried in the consist and not in the lead Rolling Eyes...!

You obviously know far more than me about these things. /s
Fatty

Fatty....Alas, I made a couple of typos in my original response to you....see reply to "justapassenger"....


Here to help and provide clarity:)....

Operational Planning - a Complicated Process where the Consist Load, loco Sectional Loads, Grade and loco operating Conditions have to be juggled WRT available motive power.

The NR's flexibility e.g. 3 power levels and resulting adhesion levels, enables it to vary its performance levels...virtually 3 locos in one...!

NSW Train Operating Conditions (TOC) states...."For mixing involving AC locomotives with NR and AN class locomotives, the maximum allowable trailing loads are published in the relevant Division Pages (for example, North Division Pages). These published maximum allowable trailing loads are lower than the summation of individual locomotives' full sectional loads. A DC locomotive shall be leading the consist and all on-board locomotive alarms shall be train-lined."

The above exists is because [as per NSW Train Operating Conditions (TOC)]...."As each type of locomotive, when operating on the ruling grade and conveying its Full Sectional Load, can have different traction performance capabilities at the balancing speed, the mixing of locomotive types may result in one locomotive working excessively harder than the other(s)."

More info on AC traction vs DC Traction - http://www.republiclocomotive.com/ac-traction-vs-dc-traction.html
  Trans-Siberian Station Master

Location: Krasnoyarsk, Siberia
"There's also a rule in NSW that DC traction locomotives must lead AC traction locomotives."
Fatty


IF that rule exists in NSW....:roll:correctly, the NR (AC traction) ought to be buried in the consist and not in the lead Rolling Eyes...!
NR locos are DC.
justapassenger

NR locos are DC.
justapassenger


Ooops lad an Egg....Thanks for spotting typos...

I was cutting/pasting/jumping between screens and talking to a couple of people simultaneously...Failed at multi-tasking...!

Meant to write....That rule exists in NSW....:roll:the NR could be buried in the consist and not in the lead under certain conditions Rolling Eyes...!
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Just a question I've been thinking about for a bit.

Why don't PN have EMD units lead their intermodal trains?   The AN, 82, G, LDP and TT units are always 'in the shafts' with the standard NR leading.   Is it ergonomics, comfort or just that is the way it is?  
It is not like other divisions are allergic to EMD units.


Thanks.
Donald
Maybe it's crew preference. While my experience is not up to date, I found the NR were the smoothest riding and quietest cabs around.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne

Ooops lad an Egg....Thanks for spotting typos...
Trans-Siberian

I don't usually feed the trolls around here but you're an annoying twerp so I'm going to make an exception this time.


Could you please point out exactly where the typo is in this sentence?

IF that rule exists in NSW....https://static.railpage.com.au/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gifcorrectly, the NR (AC traction) ought to be buried in the consist and not in the lead https://www.railpage.com.au/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif...!

Is it the multiple rolling eye gifs, getting the NRs traction wrong or the bold, underlined, capitalised 'if' that was a slip of the fingers?

Should have just admitted you were wrong and moved on.

Incorrect to make such a sweeping statement....indicating that the EA is the instrument determining operational requirements; because, PN does have EMD locos leading....e.g.: exMildura - XR Class, 81 Class, G Class; exWarrnambool on WestVic train - G Class (in the past A Class) ...!
Trans-Siberian


I am not incorrect. Like most industrial agreements the PN Intermodal EA has minimum requirements for workplace conditions. Currently, as far as I am aware, the only locos approved to lead intermodal services are NR, AN and 93 class locos.

The services you mention are operated by PN Bulk and so are not covered by the PN Intermodal agreement.

The NR's flexibility e.g. 3 power levels and resulting adhesion levels, enables it to vary its performance levels...virtually 3 locos in one...!
Trans-Siberian

Yeah, that's the reason NRs are on most of the services - the variable horsepower.
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf Line
One thing I have been too scared / embarrassed to ask for a long time, for fear of an angry response, is to ask about level crossing smashes as someone will probably say the truck driver has to be vigilant, but the reality in the real world is the vehicle driver is a human so normal lapses in concentration will occur.  

The reality is modern 1.5 km freighters consist of a string of container flats and sometimes these include many empty wagons per train. My question is how come there are not more level crossing smashes especially as empty container wagons are low and flat and not always brightly lit at night. I don't give much credit to the reflectors on the wagons being of much use revealing the train to a truck driver approaching the level crossing at night at 100 kph.

It is a genuine question and not meant to stir an angry anti truck driver response.
The rail industry response is AS7531 Lighting and Visibility. In years gone by, rakes of dirty freight wagons with no side reflectors probably didn't get easily seen by the road vehicle headlights of the time. Thus, collisions occurred. These days, while there are processes for assessing relative dangers of level crossings and the fitment of side reflectors to rail vehicles, plus better road vehicle headlights, vigilance is always going to be part of the risk assessment for level crossings. If we assume there is no vigilance, then level crossings are an unacceptable risk and need to be all replaced. But to continue that logic, stop and give way signs aren't any better defence if there is no vigilance by the driver.


sthyer
I know this post was covered a little while ago bit reading the posts helps to jot the memory. I was working the night shift as a signalman at Traralgon with the up Bairnsdale Goods shunting at Rosedale The Guard of the train had  it  blocking The Longford Road level crossing with stationary wagons. The crossing was protected by flashing lights on both sides which were operating. A car was traveling toward Rosedale and had to cross the rail line,to which it ignored the flashing lights and drove itself at high speed under a red 4 wheeled G wagon loaded with timber killing 2 males.                                                     The rail industry response is AS7531 Lighting and Visibility,which was years and years later.
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf Line
Im not embarrassed to ask this, The 81 class of the former nsw rail  along with  other classes  had huge identifing numbers on their sides same went for the X clas in victoria when it was in Freight Australia hands. Question is this ,                                                                                                   since electric staff has disappeared from Victoria the state has been run on train orders ,with ASW,( (permission to proceed from the controller) , so for safety and sighting why havent the Vlocity railcails got their road numbers in large numbers on the front of the power unit instead of being very small and inserted into the bottom of the windscreen being bunched in the corner. It must be hard to read at 160 kph or is this just irrelevant.    
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Im not embarrassed to ask this, The 81 class of the former nsw rail  along with  other classes  had huge identifing numbers on their sides same went for the X clas in victoria when it was in Freight Australia hands. Question is this ,                                                                                                   since electric staff has disappeared from Victoria the state has been run on train orders ,with ASW,( (permission to proceed from the controller) , so for safety and sighting why havent the Vlocity railcails got their road numbers in large numbers on the front of the power unit instead of being very small and inserted into the bottom of the windscreen being bunched in the corner. It must be hard to read at 160 kph or is this just irrelevant.    
david harvey
Are whatever Victoria calls Train Orders (which will, no doubt, be some modified form of the 'traditional' Train Order System) actually issued through a cross?

ie

Train 521 proceed from A to C cross train 522 engine xxx at B. Take mainline at B.
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf Line
Im not embarrassed to ask this, The 81 class of the former nsw rail  along with  other classes  had huge identifing numbers on their sides same went for the X clas in victoria when it was in Freight Australia hands. Question is this ,                                                                                                   since electric staff has disappeared from Victoria the state has been run on train orders ,with ASW,( (permission to proceed from the controller) , so for safety and sighting why havent the Vlocity railcails got their road numbers in large numbers on the front of the power unit instead of being very small and inserted into the bottom of the windscreen being bunched in the corner. It must be hard to read at 160 kph or is this just irrelevant.    
Are whatever Victoria calls Train Orders (which will, no doubt, be some modified form of the 'traditional' Train Order System) actually issued through a cross?

ie

Train 521 proceed from A to C cross train 522 engine xxx at B. Take mainline at B.
YM-Mundrabilla
thanks for your reply YM ,I under stand about the Train Orders ,you look like you are romancing about the 520 class a little, or were they random numbers . What I was trying to say was the numbers on an old X class the were painted on the front were at least 1.8 metres or 6 foot high same with the numbers on the 81 ,82 class etc. The V/ocilty railcar  numbers are about 250mm 10 inches . The Commonwealth Railway, then ANR ran train Orders for years on the TAR , all the crews had to spot was a number blind on each side of front of the loco for the engine number. They didnt have much trouble spoting the numbers on the T,O system ,perhaps I must be looking a  little to deep in to this after all we shouldn't question the rail gods.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Im not embarrassed to ask this, The 81 class of the former nsw rail  along with  other classes  had huge identifing numbers on their sides same went for the X clas in victoria when it was in Freight Australia hands. Question is this ,                                                                                                   since electric staff has disappeared from Victoria the state has been run on train orders ,with ASW,( (permission to proceed from the controller) , so for safety and sighting why havent the Vlocity railcails got their road numbers in large numbers on the front of the power unit instead of being very small and inserted into the bottom of the windscreen being bunched in the corner. It must be hard to read at 160 kph or is this just irrelevant.    
Are whatever Victoria calls Train Orders (which will, no doubt, be some modified form of the 'traditional' Train Order System) actually issued through a cross?

ie

Train 521 proceed from A to C cross train 522 engine xxx at B. Take mainline at B.
thanks for your reply YM ,I under stand about the Train Orders ,you look like you are romancing about the 520 class a little, or were they random numbers . What I was trying to say was the numbers on an old X class the were painted on the front were at least 1.8 metres or 6 foot high same with the numbers on the 81 ,82 class etc. The V/ocilty railcar  numbers are about 250mm 10 inches . The Commonwealth Railway, then ANR ran train Orders for years on the TAR , all the crews had to spot was a number blind on each side of front of the loco for the engine number. They didnt have much trouble spoting the numbers on the T,O system ,perhaps I must be looking a  little to deep in to this after all we shouldn't question the rail gods.
david harvey
David,
Sorry, but not quite right re 521.
Train 521 back in the days was the westbound 'Tea and Sugar' where 5 indicated Thursday and 21 was the rough time of departure from Port Augusta. All from a scale published in the WTT. I don't recall if there was a train 522 at all but if so it might have been the 'Bomber' which was an eastbound roadside conveying the return of the 'Tea and Sugar' rolling stock.
The 21 was around 25% of 24 hours so was early morning  and 99 would have been late at night - all more or less anyway but the formula was simple and straightforward.
The Trans-Australian Railway (TAR) ran electric staff until about the mid 1960s when Train Orders were introduced. In those days Orders through a cross (or 2 ??) were permitted but I doubt that that is still the case after a near miss or two due to 'crew errors'. I am not familiar with what applies today, but engine numbers were vital to train identification.
I am totally iggerant of what applies in Victoria anywhere after Electric Staff and Staff and Ticket. Smile
  david harvey Chief Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale Wharf Line
Im not embarrassed to ask this, The 81 class of the former nsw rail  along with  other classes  had huge identifing numbers on their sides same went for the X clas in victoria when it was in Freight Australia hands. Question is this ,                                                                                                   since electric staff has disappeared from Victoria the state has been run on train orders ,with ASW,( (permission to proceed from the controller) , so for safety and sighting why havent the Vlocity railcails got their road numbers in large numbers on the front of the power unit instead of being very small and inserted into the bottom of the windscreen being bunched in the corner. It must be hard to read at 160 kph or is this just irrelevant.    
Are whatever Victoria calls Train Orders (which will, no doubt, be some modified form of the 'traditional' Train Order System) actually issued through a cross?

ie

Train 521 proceed from A to C cross train 522 engine xxx at B. Take mainline at B.
thanks for your reply YM ,I under stand about the Train Orders ,you look like you are romancing about the 520 class a little, or were they random numbers . What I was trying to say was the numbers on an old X class the were painted on the front were at least 1.8 metres or 6 foot high same with the numbers on the 81 ,82 class etc. The V/ocilty railcar  numbers are about 250mm 10 inches . The Commonwealth Railway, then ANR ran train Orders for years on the TAR , all the crews had to spot was a number blind on each side of front of the loco for the engine number. They didnt have much trouble spoting the numbers on the T,O system ,perhaps I must be looking a  little to deep in to this after all we shouldn't question the rail gods.
David,
Sorry, but not quite right re 521.
Train 521 back in the days was the westbound 'Tea and Sugar' where 5 indicated Thursday and 21 was the rough time of departure from Port Augusta. All from a scale published in the WTT. I don't recall if there was a train 522 at all but if so it might have been the 'Bomber' which was an eastbound roadside conveying the return of the 'Tea and Sugar' rolling stock.
The 21 was around 25% of 24 hours so was early morning  and 99 would have been late at night - all more or less anyway but the formula was simple and straightforward.
The Trans-Australian Railway (TAR) ran electric staff until about the mid 1960s when Train Orders were introduced. In those days Orders through a cross (or 2 ??) were permitted but I doubt that that is still the case after a near miss or two due to 'crew errors'. I am not familiar with what applies today, but engine numbers were vital to train identification.
I am totally iggerant of what applies in Victoria anywhere after Electric Staff and Staff and Ticket. Smile
YM-Mundrabilla
Thanks YM for your reply ,it was only a wild guess with the 521 numbers, where not playing for sheep stations.  I was looking through my ANR timetable  1986  with the sugar and it ran on a Wednesday till its demise, No 4210. Today ,the 23rd of december , I traveled on the pass from Melbourne to Bairsndale  and the train ran on the staff and ticket system from Traralgon to Bairsndale. In the year 2020 Vlocity technology train, Year 1880 safe-working system but one of the safest systems. I dont mind this type of forum ,with you i have followed your posts ,you seem to say just what is needed ,like in this post where I got the 521 not right ,some people would get a wee bit technical  and wound up or is it passionate ,at least you give the explanation with out the rant.Your are not iggerant to what applies in Victoria . As I said there is no  Electric Staff but some lines have  Staff and Ticket. There you go now you have some idea and you can ride a passenger train on Staff and Ticket,   Dave      

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