An hour between peak hour services at suburban Sandgate is an improved timetable, WTF?

An hour between peak hour services at suburban Sandgate is an improved timetable, WTF?

It is if you aren't going to Sandgate (the material change is that the service previously around ~15:25 has been switched to the express pattern).  Sandgate isn't exactly the busiest station on the line.

Its not going to get any busier with less services, Sandgate serves Shortland as well as local factories, an hour is too long during the peak.

My experience out of Kiama this week has been good. Sydney return 3 days this week have all been on time and one trip early into Central by 2 minutes. Mid morning changes at Dapto and Unanderra have been eliminated and trip is around 20 minutes faster. Down trips don't seem to held behind Illawarra suburbans as much. I heard a few complaints from people that transferred from the Wollongong local services at Thirroul about the long wait there. It now seems to make more sense to transfer from the local shuttles at Helensburgh rather than Thirroul.

It is the usual tradeoff between an improvement in travel time for many versus an inconvenience for a few.  I think the decision that has been made is appropriate, given the future prospects of patronage growth around Sandgate (significant growth would require zombies to rise up from the ground and start catching trains and/or the Hunter river to promise to never flood again) versus more significant stations further out.

In general I think it is a mistake to have stops/stations too close together on a heavy rail network.  Given a fair proportion of the residential part of Shortland is not that far from Warabrook (particularly time wise if you are able to catch the little magic coaster bus) Sandgate would probably make my list of stations on the Hunter line that should be closed for good (High Street and East Maitland are high up on that list).

I was at Circular Quay during the morning peak the other day, and I saw a service indicated as Regents Park via Bankstown. I thought this was an error as the typical service is Lidcombe via Bankstown.

However, I found out by looking at the timetable that not only does such a service actually exist, there are three of them in the morning peak.

8:06 Town Hall -> 9:06 Regents Park
8:36 Town Hall -> 9:36 Regents Park
9:06 Town Hall -> 10:06 Regents Park

All three of these services are immediately preceded 15 minutes earlier by a Lidcombe via Bankstown service, but it's not like the Lidcombe turnback cannot handle 15 minute services.

I also checked the timetable for the opposite direction and it's not the case that there is a service starting from Regents Park shortly after. All the services inbound along that branch of Lidcombe to Regents Park are completely accounted for by services that arrive at Lidcombe, turn around and start another service.

This presumably means that these services after they arrive at Regents Park travel somewhere empty and do not start a new service.

But I don't think there is any stabling immediately close by to Regents Park. I am not entirely sure of what is nearby, but I know there is a space for one train at the end of Bankstown station, Platform 5 at Lidcombe for terminating services doesn't seem to be where it's heading, and I don't think there is any stabling at all between Regents Park and Cabramatta. If these services are going to Flemington maintenance centre they would interfere with the inbound South Line services at Lidcombe.

Does anyone know what is happening here?

Does anyone know what is happening here?

Empty to Liverpool and form up service.

Stopping at Sydenham and Tempe doesn't take long anyway (compared to the City and ESR), and the old timetable already had sections where expresses were three minutes behind stoppers, which required them to crawl to Wolli and then sprint to Rockdale/Kogarah/Hurstville. Great fun during PM peak to do this in a rainstorm, what with roaring H sets, groaning S sets and absolutely shrieking T sets. Anyway.

The Illawarra can cope with this. The idea of skip-stop between Wolli and Refern is simple: patronage at Tempe is not very high, and nor is Illawarra patronage at Sydenham. The government wants to emphasise Wolli as the internal (as well as Airport/East Hills) interchange for the Illawarra (allowing local-express connections at Wolli and Hurstville), rather than Sydenham.

After all, what's there at Sydenham? Only connects to the Bankstown... /dies laughing

Some of us can recall that all trains (Illawarra) used to stop at Tempe and it was a major station (I grew up catching trains from Kogarah). Then it was moved to Sydenham. Now it has been moved to Wolli Creek.  

After all, what's at Wolli Creek (A: airport line with access fees)!

Some of us can recall that all trains (Illawarra) used to stop at Tempe and it was a major station (I grew up catching trains from Kogarah). Then it was moved to Sydenham. Now it has been moved to Wolli Creek.  

After all, what's at Wolli Creek (A: airport line with access fees)!

Meh. In all honesty, this move to Wolli is, I think, not entirely ideal. It's very good for connecting traffic, but as an O&D station it's not great - there are a few apartment towers, a couple Asian minimarts, a Woolworths...

...aaaaaand that's about it!

Meh. In all honesty, this move to Wolli is, I think, not entirely ideal. It's very good for connecting traffic, but as an O&D station it's not great - there are a few apartment towers, a couple Asian minimarts, a Woolworths...

...aaaaaand that's about it!

Yeah, that's about it.  I think there should be a railway station built next to every cluster of apartment blocks.  Better than trying to find roads for all of them to drive in and out every day.

If you want a station that has nothing, and I mean nothing, try Birrong.

John

Wolli Creek appears to have reasonable patronage. I'm not sure if that is from people coming in and out of the station or from people changing between train lines.

Whatever the case is, it's clearly been made to be a focus of the new timetable on the Illawarra Line, probably because of its Airport Line connections. Sydenham, which has Bankstown Line connections on the other hand still has a reasonable amount of trains but not every train now stops there in peak, though there's still more than enough frankly.

In the old timetable, there used to be some weird divisions between Sydenham and Wolli Creek. I believe intercity trains only stopped at the latter, whereas some peak hour express trains only stopped at the former. Now Wolli Creek has been put as the major focus.

As for Birrong, I used to do some infrequent travelling up to Lidcombe and there is hardly anyone getting on and off the train at all. But there is a school nearby, although I don't think many students use the station.

Nowadays, it will become an interchange between the Liverpool and Lidcombe branches. How many make that trip though is not something I know.

darcyj - every station should have a cluster of apartments!

Wolli Creek appears to have reasonable patronage. I'm not sure if that is from people coming in and out of the station or from people changing between train lines.

Whatever the case is, it's clearly been made to be a focus of the new timetable on the Illawarra Line, probably because of its Airport Line connections. Sydenham, which has Bankstown Line connections on the other hand still has a reasonable amount of trains but not every train now stops there in peak, though there's still more than enough frankly.

It's a mix of both. In the AM peak, most fast up suburbans still call at Sydenham. In the PM peak, no fast down suburbans call at Sydenham.

In the old timetable, there used to be some weird divisions between Sydenham and Wolli Creek. I believe intercity trains only stopped at the latter, whereas some peak hour express trains only stopped at the former. Now Wolli Creek has been put as the major focus.

All-day and peak stopping trains called at both. Peak semi-fast suburbans could either call at both or Sydenham only. Interurbans only called at Wolli Creek during the daytime. Fast services called at neither.

From Redfern to Hurstville, it varied from:
Redfern, Hurstville
Redfern, Wolli Creek, Hurstville
Redfern, Sydenham, Kogarah, Hurstville
Redfern, Rockdale, Kogarah, Hurstville
Redfern, Sydenham, Rockdale, Kogarah, Hurstville
Redfern, Sydenham, Wolli Creek, Rockdale, Kogarah, Hurstville
Redfern, Sydenham, Tempe, Wolli Creek, Arncliffe, Banksia, Rockdale, Kogarah, Carlton, Allawah, Hurstville

...bit complex.

Has the new timetable held up well?

After the major delayS (plural) on Wednesday

!

-----------------
Central to Newcastle was 5 hr 27 minutes!
Similar delay last Wednesday of old timetable was 4 hrs 6 minutes

Last Wednesday's major delay at Beecroft was almost identical to the major delay at Beecroft in 2011. Both occured on the last Wednesday in October, both near or at Beecroft, the only difference is that 2011's only took about an hour to start to fix, but as for Wednesday, . . . .!

And yesterday & it wasn't on the website, information that the Newcastle & Central Coast Line (& note what way the title is) were delayed by 20 minutes at Central.

I believe I haven't been able to find a day since the new "timetable" that has not had a major delay.

If you'll excuse Mr/s Express' trolling, the timetable has performed surprisingly well. I must say I am shocked that TfNSW have produced something of merit, but the proof is in the pudding.

I've noticed that in the morning peak on the Airport & East Hills Line, there are two sets of two trains that might be better off with their running order reversed.

They are:

• 7.23am Macarthur to City/7.41am East Hills to City
• 7.38am Macarthur to city/7.56am East Hills to City

The Macarthur to City service stops all to Holsworthy (except Macquarie Fields), Wolli Creek, all to City via Airport (travelling on the express tracks between Revesby and Wolli Creek).

The East Hills to City service stops Panania, Padstow, Riverwood, Wolli Creek, all to City via Airport (travelling on the local tracks).

According to the timetable, the faster Macarthur to City service is meant to only catch up to the East Hills to City service and slot in 3 minutes behind it at Wolli Creek. This is because at the time that the East Hills service commences, these services are further back along the line, only departing from Glenfield.

However, what I've noticed is almost all the time, the service from Macarthur actually overtakes the service from East Hills somewhere around Bexley North. Later, when the service from East Hills approaches Wolli Creek, the service from Macarthur is waiting at a red signal just outside Turrella for the service from East Hills to go ahead.

I think the scheduling of these two services has been a bit off, and they should be reversed in order at Wolli Creek. I think there has been an overestimation of the time the Macarthur to City service takes to travel between Holsworthy and Wolli Creek.

If you'll excuse Mr/s Express' trolling, the timetable has performed surprisingly well. I must say I am shocked that TfNSW have produced something of merit, but the proof is in the pudding.

The proof is not in the pudding, it never was.  But the proof OF the pudding is in the EATING.

If people think the objective of the new timetable is get rid of every delay then they are sadly mistaken. The objective is to significantly reduce them. It is impossible to make observations and conclusions after just 2 months of the new timetable. Any complaints to that effect will probably just get laughed at. Some of you should take some ADHD pills and calm down.

Actually, I don't see a problem in judging after 2 months, that's plenty of time IMO.

How exactly long should people wait to judge the performance of a timetable? A year? That'd be a year lost IMO.

Actually, I don't see a problem in judging after 2 months, that's plenty of time IMO.

How exactly long should people wait to judge the performance of a timetable? A year? That'd be a year lost IMO.

Given it has only been in for three weeks (20 October), where is the "two months" coming from?

Dave

I thought it was September 20 for some reason . OTR looks strong, except for North Shore. As I said earlier, early days yet.

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/b2b/sydneytrains/releases/131108-Media-Release-Performance-October.pdf

Given it has only been in for three weeks (20 October), where is the "two months" coming from?

Dave

Good point. lol Feels like two months for some reason. :s

162J  down Mon-Fri. Terminate at Parramatta. What's the purpose of this run?
Weird!

162J  down Mon-Fri. Terminate at Parramatta. What's the purpose of this run?
Weird!

Performs a rail/points clean.

Ok my train has been late how many times? I think the on time running figures have been altered. I understand acts of god. Storms etc. But blaming a tree on the track is stupid. Cut the bloody trees down before they become a problem. Its called risk management. Trains also seem to run slower now with silly stopping patterns. Is this the new Cityrail or Sydney Trains? I see no difference.

Ok my train has been late how many times? I think the on time running figures have been altered. I understand acts of god. Storms etc. But blaming a tree on the track is stupid. Cut the bloody trees down before they become a problem. Its called risk management. Trains also seem to run slower now with silly stopping patterns. Is this the new Cityrail or Sydney Trains? I see no difference.

Stopping patterns are devised for a variety of reasons, but high on the list is load management.  Do you have an example of a "silly stopping pattern" and can you defend your thesis?