Stopping patterns are devised for a variety of reasons, but high on the list is load management.  Do you have an example of a "silly stopping pattern" and can you defend your thesis?

Trains that skip Lidcombe to and from the city.

Trains that skip Lidcombe to and from the city.

What's wrong with that, exactly?

I seem to see a prevailing attitude of, 'Express trains should not stop at any stations except the one I get on at and the one I get off at.'

What's wrong with that, exactly?

I seem to see a prevailing attitude of, 'Express trains should not stop at any stations except the one I get on at and the one I get off at.'

That seems to be the general consensus amongst all of Sydneys commuters. They also demand a direct train to every station they could ever want to go to. Also a frequent service. Also a window seat. I'm sure they wouldn't say no to a complimentary reach-around upon boarding.

Those services make sense though, particularly for somebody that lives beyond Granville. Living in Mt Druitt for 10 years (2002-2012), it was quite efficient for me (and many others) sometimes when travelling to the city during the afternoon peak. It saved a few minutes, rather than stopping:

Central-Redfern-Strathfield-Lidcombe-all stations-Granville-Parramatta-Westmead-Seven Hills-all stations-Mt Druitt. Rather, I could've caught one that went:

Central-Strathfield-Granville-Parramatta-Blacktown-Mt Druitt.

Those services make sense though, particularly for somebody that lives beyond Granville. Living in Mt Druitt for 10 years (2002-2012), it was quite efficient for me (and many others) sometimes when travelling to the city during the afternoon peak. It saved a few minutes, rather than stopping:

Central-Redfern-Strathfield-Lidcombe-all stations-Granville-Parramatta-Westmead-Seven Hills-all stations-Mt Druitt. Rather, I could've caught one that went:

Central-Strathfield-Granville-Parramatta-Blacktown-Mt Druitt.

Yeah, sounds good. I think all Blue Mountains trains should be Central(i)-Lidcombe-Penrith-Katoomba. All of them, each and every single one. Lidcombe, in case I am either umpiring at the NSW Tennis Centre or the Swans are playing at ANZ Stadium, Penrith in case I am visiting my mother or my sister in that area. This would work perfectly!

Dave

_{In case you can't tell, this is sarcasm!)}

Yeah, sounds good. I think all Blue Mountains trains should be Central(i)-Lidcombe-Penrith-Katoomba. All of them, each and every single one. Lidcombe, in case I am either umpiring at the NSW Tennis Centre or the Swans are playing at ANZ Stadium, Penrith in case I am visiting my mother or my sister in that area. This would work perfectly!

Dave

_{In case you can't tell, this is sarcasm!)}

Of course that was sarcasm, but closer to truth than might seem. Lidcombe is a major interchange station. Parramatta is a major business and retail centre. I would see sense in having mountains trains stop at Lidcombe but not Blacktown.

Yeah, sounds good. I think all Blue Mountains trains should be Central(i)-Lidcombe-Penrith-Katoomba. All of them, each and every single one. Lidcombe, in case I am either umpiring at the NSW Tennis Centre or the Swans are playing at ANZ Stadium, Penrith in case I am visiting my mother or my sister in that area. This would work perfectly!

Dave

_{In case you can't tell, this is sarcasm!)}

Did I say all services needed to be like that? No.

I said (and read carefully) it works for those who live beyond the main interchanges/those who live far out west.

I might've worded my post a little wrongly, but a simple correction would be appreciated, rather than you taking unnecessary shots at people!

EDIT: I understand I might've worded my post wrong to make it look as though was Dave thinks it looks like, but I can assure you, I'm not being an armchair expert. I was just saying, those fast suburban services are efficient for people who live in Greater Western Sydney.

Did I say all services needed to be like that? No.

I said (and read carefully) it works for those who live beyond the main interchanges/those who live far out west.

I might've worded my post a little wrongly, but a simple correction would be appreciated, rather than you taking unnecessary shots at people!

EDIT: I understand I might've worded my post wrong to make it look as though was Dave thinks it looks like, but I can assure you, I'm not being an armchair expert. I was just saying, those fast suburban services are efficient for people who live in Greater Western Sydney.

You might want to reread Daves post - you're both arguing on the same side!

You might want to reread Daves post - you're both arguing on the same side!

Oh gawd. I just realised that. My apologies Dave.

Actually, I think there is some merit for an argument about trains that skip Lidcombe stopping at Lidcombe. Not all of them though.

I quote this from what I've said in an earlier post.

As far as Lidcombe is concerned, the new timetable is really not ideal for people who travel from the Bankstown Line to stations served only on the Inner West Line. It's also not just that, because there's also some people who want to change to the Northern Line at Strathfield.


With the new timetable, the line has been cut at Lidcombe but despite Lidcombe now becoming an even more important interchange than it already was (as the interchange point between trains towards the Auburn direction, Bankstown Line and Olympic Park Line previously) there has been no recognition of that at all it seems. The full train load at Lidcombe that would have been on the Bankstown Line service now needs to get off and change trains to continue their journey. However, there doesn't seem to have been any increase in services to/from Strathfield which would be necessary, so those people intending to travel to the Inner West Line stations or to the Northern Line can have a more convenient interchange.

Seeing as there will be less services now between Lidcombe and Strathfield during peak hour with the loss of the Bankstown Line/Inner West Line services, and the need for everyone on the Bankstown Line train to get off and change trains to continue their journey, there's going to probably be some serious congestion at Lidcombe. Both before and after the new timetable, only 4 trains per hour one way during peak on the Western Line stop at Lidcombe. With approximately 16-20 trains per hour on the Western Line passing through the Lidcombe location one way in peak, I think they should have put on some of the slower patterns to stop at Lidcombe, maybe another 4 trains per hour to bring the total to 8. This combined with the South Line would probably be better.

The new timetable has not accounted for the fact that 4 all stops trains per hour from the Bankstown Line towards the city (and vice versa) during peak hours no longer exist.

Four trains worth of passengers (although admittedly not full) each hour during peak hour are unloaded at Lidcombe and have to get on another train to continue with their journey towards the City.

At the moment, they are served by the South Line and only 4 trains out of about 16-20 on the Western Line each hour. I think there's a good argument for making more trains each hour on the Western Line to stop at Lidcombe given its greater importance now. I also would suspect it would not throw timetabling completely off - I'm sure given that the line practically entirely saturated, there's already a limiting factor for speed somewhere else.

This of course does not mean that every Western Line train should stop at Lidcombe - I just think there's a good argument for more than only one every 15 minutes during peak hour.

I do not have first hand experience of this, but a friend who lives at Berala does note that it is the case that during peak hour, Bankstown Line commuters are not fitting well on the current 8 to 10 trains per hour with the South Line + Western Line, among the passengers who are already at Lidcombe anyway.

Actually, I think there is some merit for an argument about trains that skip Lidcombe stopping at Lidcombe. Not all of them though.

I quote this from what I've said in an earlier post.


The new timetable has not accounted for the fact that 4 all stops trains per hour from the Bankstown Line towards the city (and vice versa) during peak hours no longer exist.

Four trains worth of passengers (although admittedly not full) each hour during peak hour are unloaded at Lidcombe and have to get on another train to continue with their journey towards the City.

At the moment, they are served by the South Line and only 4 trains out of about 16-20 on the Western Line each hour. I think there's a good argument for making more trains each hour on the Western Line to stop at Lidcombe given its greater importance now. I also would suspect it would not throw timetabling completely off - I'm sure given that the line practically entirely saturated, there's already a limiting factor for speed somewhere else.

This of course does not mean that every Western Line train should stop at Lidcombe - I just think there's a good argument for more than only one every 15 minutes during peak hour.

I do not have first hand experience of this, but a friend who lives at Berala does note that it is the case that during peak hour, Bankstown Line commuters are not fitting well on the current 8 to 10 trains per hour with the South Line + Western Line, among the passengers who are already at Lidcombe anyway.

It seems like your friend at Berala wants his or her cake and to eat it too. Yes, Berala has lost a service to the city to the Lidcombe Turnback. But passengers still have TWO options for getting into the city - that's more than the folk at say Engadine have.
Your friend wants a fast way into the city and a seat all the way in as well? Maybe they need to consider driving.

If your friend wants a seat all the way into the city in exchange for a slower journey they can sit back and ride the Banker, as a bonus the train would be nice and empty at Berala.
On the other hand, if your friend enjoys his/her sleep just a bit too much, they can take the shorter journey time and give up their seat - there's no free lunch.

There's a massive 20 minute gap in the morning peak on the Bankstown Line in stations not served by express trains.

At Canterbury Station:

8:36 ---> from Lidcombe to Town Hall via Sydenham

8:56,---> from Lidcombe to Town Hall via Sydenham

I'm sure many commuters waiting in between the 20 minute gap wouldn 't be happy at all. Gladys have promised for easy clock-time frequencies (i.e. 10 minute gaps) especially in peak hours on the inner west line but has she realised how inconvenient it is for Bankstown Line commuters having to wait this long for a train in the busiest hour of the morning peak hour. There should be timetabling changes here.

There's a massive 20 minute gap in the morning peak on the Bankstown Line in stations not served by express trains.

At Canterbury Station:

8:36 ---> from Lidcombe to Town Hall via Sydenham

8:56,---> from Lidcombe to Town Hall via Sydenham

I'm sure many commuters waiting in between the 20 minute gap wouldn 't be happy at all. Gladys have promised for easy clock-time frequencies (i.e. 10 minute gaps) especially in peak hours on the inner west line but has she realised how inconvenient it is for Bankstown Line commuters having to wait this long for a train in the busiest hour of the morning peak hour. There should be timetabling changes here.

And how many commuters exactly are being inconvenienced at this piddling, non-major suburban station at this end-of-peak time?

And how many commuters exactly are being inconvenienced at this piddling, non-major suburban station at this end-of-peak time?

If you haven't realised, morning peak times have been altered from 6am-9am to 6am- 10am. This station was used as an example ; commuters from Yagoona, Wiley Park, Hurlstone Park, Dulwich Hill and Erskineville stations traveling around this 20 minute gap are all inconvenienced. Not only these stations, but every other Bankstown Line commuter also travelling around this time period as some alight at these stations. If you add up all these figures together, it won't be a "small handful of people," which you're implying.

If you haven't realised, morning peak times have been altered from 6am-9am to 6am- 10am. This station was used as an example ; commuters from Yagoona, Wiley Park, Hurlstone Park, Dulwich Hill and Erskineville stations traveling around this 20 minute gap are all inconvenienced. Not only these stations, but every other Bankstown Line commuter also travelling around this time period as some alight at these stations. If you add up all these figures together, it won't be a "small handful of people," which you're implying.

Alfred, even if your contention that his is a major issue - which it obviously isn't - SydneyTrains simple doesn't have the rolling stock to provide a full peak level service for any more than about an hour, up to 90 minutes at a stretch.  And even if they did, there are certainly other more worthwhile places it could be deployed than on a post peak shoulder service on the network's most lightly used line.  Even so, the 2013 timetable has already substantially increased resources deployed on the Bankstown line.

SydneyTrains really can't sustain a full peak frequency service for any more than 60 to 90 minutes.  The out and back run-times on the Bankstown line routes are (very roughly) ~120min: an hour each way.  To provide the service you advocate would mean the network would need enough train sets to provide the maximum frequency primary flow service, but also (more or less) the same number of train sets operating contra-flow.

Typically SydneyTrains has about 75% the resources to operate a peak service in both directions simultaneously.  For a 2hr out and back run it means you can have an hour at full peak frequency, but the other hour at only half off peak frequency.  By tweeking the times of the supplementary peak runs and drawing the base load runs slightly into each peak you can extend this peak period by a bit, but certainly not to cover 4 continuous hours.  The result is there are unavoidable timetable holes both before and after the main peak surge.

As more than half the entire AM traffic load occurs in the peak hour, it's entirely appropriate that this hour be given this priority.

Lidcombe is a junction station of importance. Olympic Park has a lot of offices and a recent residential boom in the last 18 months.