Blue tea-shirts and blue ties

 
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Just another thing, you say that these people are desperate because they come here by boat, but what I can't understand with this line of thinking is that these people are crossing multiple borders by multiple modes of transport probably.  How can a comparison be drawn between being desperate and coming here on a boat when what most people would call desperate would be say someone who flees with absolutely no means to help themselves and would be lucky to make it across one border.

I kind of think these people are more country shoppers than anything else because their paying quite a lot of money in their terms and have the ability to do so.  They are also being deceptive and cunning too by the way they are entering Australia and manipulating the Government to make the circumstances suit themselves - don't you think?
"2301"

Correct, these people are no longer in danger as soon as they get to the first safe place. There is a case to be made that your average Muslim fleeing someplace in the Middle East would be quite safe in Indonesia, the largest Muslim population in the world, some would say they'd fit right in, but that's not what they want is it...

Also, they need to learn (QUICKLY) that their gullibility in believing a lying smuggler telling them Australia will give them everything free(dom) and/or cheap, is not our problem, and if they want to riot or complain and make a noise they are quite welcome to do so... At their smuggler's house...

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  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Most are not asylum seekers, but illegal immigrants and until the government calls them so, and does something about it, they will continue to come here.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
2301: Trust me, this is one of those situations that is not straightforward.  I thought the same as you did before I actually met them but you can't categorise them easily; some are definitely fleeing war-torn crap-holes where a normal life is not possible while others could be classified as economic refugees (like the Iranians I was discussing) who happen to be leaving their country because they are seeking a better life in Australia.  It isn't easy to categorise them neatly when you meet them, that's for sure.

To get to the bottom of the 'uncontrolled arrivals' issue, the UN Convention on Refugees (1951) dictates to us how we need to treat people who arrive on our shores claiming asylum.  If someone makes it to our shores claiming asylum then we have to assess their claim, no ifs or buts.  The Convention was set up as a result of some unfortunate incidents before and during WW2 where Jewish people fleeing Nazi Germany were sent back to certain death because most countries refused to take them.  Some would argue that Australia should abandon that convention because we can't accurately determine if someone is fleeing persecution or just an economic refugee - which is fair enough.  

In reality I think if Abbott really is going to 'stop the boats' then that would be the only alternative.  Maybe if they want to stop this disorderly migrant program (which is basically what it is), that's the only way to go - however it will be breaking an agreement that we've been a signatory to since 1951 and a lot of other Western countries are going to be very unhappy with us.  I'm the first to admit that I don't know what the answer is.

Aaron: You are a hundred percent right there, people smugglers actively recruit potential migrants telling them all sorts of bullsh*t about Australia - that everything is free, that the government will give you everything including a free house in Sydney or Melbourne (ha!).  Then again if I lived somewhere wonderful and prosperous like Bangladesh or Pakistan and I had enough money, I would seriously think about doing it, wouldn't you?
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Aaron: You are a hundred percent right there, people smugglers actively recruit potential migrants telling them all sorts of bullsh*t about Australia - that everything is free, that the government will give you everything including a free house in Sydney or Melbourne (ha!).  Then again if I lived somewhere wonderful and prosperous like Bangladesh or Pakistan and I had enough money, I would seriously think about doing it, wouldn't you?
"don_dunstan"

I probably would, BUT I'd like to think that if I could amass that kind of money in country that poor I would have the sense to realise that nothing is free, anywhere. I mean if Australia is so cheap, easy going and just a pleasurable cruise away why is my smuggler still sitting here in whatever squalid location this is?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I probably would, BUT I'd like to think that if I could amass that kind of money in country that poor I would have the sense to realise that nothing is free, anywhere. I mean if Australia is so cheap, easy going and just a pleasurable cruise away why is my smuggler still sitting here in whatever squalid location this is?
Aaron

You have a valid point there, if someone in one of those countries has twenty grand then you'd think they would also be intelligently  informed about what things are like in your target country before you move there.  Also the situation would also be different in taking on more people if we didn't have our own domestic housing crisis as we do in Melbourne and Sydney.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
People smugglers actively recruit potential migrants telling them all sorts of bullsh*t about Australia - that everything is free, that the government will give you everything including a free house in Sydney or Melbourne (ha!).
don_dunstan
Yes, but given the handouts, it is not too far from the truth.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The UN Convention on Refugees (1951) dictates to us how we need to treat people who arrive on our shores claiming asylum.  If someone makes it to our shores claiming asylum then we have to assess their claim, no ifs or buts.
don_dunstan
That is very hard to do when they arrive with no passports or any other form of identification. The smugglers tell them to ditch their identification.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
That is very hard to do when they arrive with no passports or any other form of identification. The smugglers tell them to ditch their identification.
TheBlacksmith

Historically (1951) post WW2, the issue was the millions of people in DP camps having survived death and labour camps and the Nazis weren't inclined to provide them with records.

Australia was reluctant to allow Eastern European refugees into Australia until pressured by the UN. A German ex-nazis had a better chance than someone from some former allied countries Shocked . By the early 1950's the country was being 'swamped' by refos, dagoes and wogs.

Fast forward to 2013 - the country is being 'swamped' by boat people. Abbott's going to use the navy to turn the boats around - that Rambo bravado so appealing to the naz-ties. However the other day they start pulling back from that rhetoric.

There are no quick fixes. Walk a mile is someone else's shoes before you make yourself an expert on what will stop them coming.

With Afghanistan increasingly likely to see the Talaban return expect a 'tidal wave' of these (add tag)

Guess they could try death and labour camps.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
But we keep getting Sri Lankan 'refugees'.   Didn't the civil war end there a couple of years ago?   The ones escaping SL from political prosecution would be the Tamil Tigers - a outlawed terrorist group.    If they are not Tigers, then they must be country shoppers looking for a 'better' country the back way in.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Yes, but given the handouts, it is not too far from the truth.
TheBlacksmith

Nah, that's a media beat-up.  I saw that story too, the one where refugees were getting twenty grand worth of furnishings.  The ones that I've met have got nothing (apart from Centrelink).  Have you tried living in a capital city on Centrelink with no public housing?  Impossible.  You end up relying on charities to keep you going and that's no way for anyone with dignity to live - I know I certainly couldn't do it.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
Nah, that's a media beat-up. ...
don_dunstan

Really - do they do that Shocked  Unfortunately works for enough, enough of the time (just ask Joe)

There are thousands of people coming here and circumventing the immigration process. Most aren't in boats, non-white and/or non-Christian but its hard demonising them.

I may suspect that X proportion are 'economic' refugees and all of them are in a position to try and jump the queue and therefore should not receive any advantage. However I understand the world is a smaller place and this is a global situation so I don't pretend there is a simple solution. No doubt Abbott with an M60 may work for some.

There is something base about the rhetoric which smacks all too much of 1930's Europe.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

But we keep getting Sri Lankan 'refugees'.   Didn't the civil war end there a couple of years ago?   The ones escaping SL from political prosecution would be the Tamil Tigers - a outlawed terrorist group.    If they are not Tigers, then they must be country shoppers looking for a 'better' country the back way in.
Donald
Many of the refugees coming from Sri Lanka are leaving because of ongoing persecution by the Govt there.  Another thing to note is that government sponsored para-military groups are coercing young Tamil men to join these groups and oppress their own people.  Many are not associated with the Tamil Tigers or ever have been.  But if you were in their position, I'd want to get out as quick as possible!

Indonesia - there are about 40000 asylum seekers there waiting to board boats to Australia.  Many are Iranians fleeing the brutal theocracy in that land, or Afghani/Pakistanis (often Shi'ite) fleeing the sectarian conflict there.

The boats will keep coming regardless of who is governing Australia.  And I've never voted ALP btw.

As for Gillard's blue tie speech - divisive, sexist drivvle IMO.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
So with all these refugees arriving en-masse where will that leave Australia financially and socially?

Do we have the jobs and industry to support all these people, with the vast majority probably being unskilled with poor English?

What will be the social ramifications of changing from a Christian based society to an Islamic society?

Maybe some people will just have to realise that the world is a stuffed up place, always has been and always will be, and no matter how hard or how good intentioned some people are in trying to fix this, it will be impossible for Australia.  Probably best just to protect what we have here before it's too late?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
So with all these refugees arriving en-masse where will that leave Australia financially and socially?

Do we have the jobs and industry to support all these people, with the vast majority probably being unskilled with poor English?

What will be the social ramifications of changing from a Christian based society to an Islamic society?

Maybe some people will just have to realise that the world is a stuffed up place, always has been and always will be, and no matter how hard or how good intentioned some people are in trying to fix this, it will be impossible for Australia.  Probably best just to protect what we have here before it's too late?
2301
Em masse? You are an absolute joke.

I see as usual you are unable to back any of your comments with actual facts.

Given that by a big margin the largest number of immigrants annually come from New Zealand, I fear we are about to become a nation of sheep-shaggers.

Oh wait a minute..........
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Really - do they do that Shocked  Unfortunately works for enough, enough of the time (just ask Joe)

There are thousands of people coming here and circumventing the immigration process. Most aren't in boats, non-white and/or non-Christian but its hard demonising them.

I may suspect that X proportion are 'economic' refugees and all of them are in a position to try and jump the queue and therefore should not receive any advantage. However I understand the world is a smaller place and this is a global situation so I don't pretend there is a simple solution. No doubt Abbott with an M60 may work for some.

There is something base about the rhetoric which smacks all too much of 1930's Europe.
cootanee

I think we will all find out that history repeats itself.  Maybe drastic action will be the only solution to this problem, which will upset the socialist mindset but if the Government is to retain control of the place a line will probably have to be drawn in the sand somewhere.

They say this is going to be the number one election issue, so maybe people are thinking ahead as to what the ramifications will be for the whole of society if uncontrolled immigration is allowed to continue in this fashion?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
They say this is going to be the number one election issue, so maybe people are thinking ahead as to what the ramifications will be for the whole of society if uncontrolled immigration is allowed to continue in this fashion?
2301
Uncontrolled immigration - no such thing.

Another media term one of your Liberal Party aparatchicks thought up to numb the masses with?
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
I think we will all find out that history repeats itself.  Maybe drastic action will be the only solution to this problem, which will upset the socialist mindset but if the Government is to retain control of the place a line will probably have to be drawn in the sand somewhere.

They say this is going to be the number one election issue, so maybe people are thinking ahead as to what the ramifications will be for the whole of society if uncontrolled immigration is allowed to continue in this fashion?
2301

WTF !!!!

Line in the sand... OMG they're coming up the street right now to steal my next billion (unless I fudge them a 457 visa first Idea )

No doubt it will be the number one election issue if your media naz-ties have their way.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
No doubt it will be the number one election issue if your media naz-ties have their way.
cootanee
+1
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
So putting emotions aside and looking at this objectively, who is ultimately going to have to pay for the settlement of the refugees and what will the social ramifications be from this?

It has been increasing every year since Gillard and Rudd changed the laws so one can only assume that the trend will continue.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
So putting emotions aside and looking at this objectively,
2301
and recognising that the OP has only replied once in two pages, the correct teminology is tee shirt or T-shirt, not tea-shirt.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
One thing you have to give Kevin, he is a bit of a larrikin which is probably why he comes across as being likable.  

I reckon he was sending Julia a message by wearing a blue tie the next day.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
One thing you have to give Kevin, he is a bit of a larrikin which is probably why he comes across as being likable.  

I reckon he was sending Julia a message by wearing a blue tie the next day.
2301

Yes, to return to the original topic.  

Who knows what the bloody hell is going to happen, either Julia loses the election or Kevin might lose it by slightly less.  Either way we are in for a Coalition government with a thumping majority... I'm not a Liberal or Labor supporter but Tony Abbott really doesn't inspire confidence, there's something about him that's... I don't know... a bit desperate?  And let's face it, they don't really have a plan apart from cutting everything.  We need infrastructure spending in this country really badly - especially rail.  Tony Abbott has already stated that he is NOT the Prime Minister to do this, he doesn't see rail as a Commonwealth issue (but he's really keen on funding that white elephant East-West tunnel).

One of the things that concerned me was the agenda of reinstatement of lots of middle-class welfare while the bottom marginal tax rate is lowered.  It makes me think people on the bottom rung are not a priority.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
I don't think Kevin would really want the PM job again because he would surely have to realise that it would be very short lived.  

I reckon this is just his way of getting even with Jules.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting for the sky to fall, the seas to rise... and seeing a train on the SSFL!
Someone should replay all those caring, sharing (respectful) moments when the minority government was being negotiated. There was even a glimmer of idealism that things could go beyond partisan politics.

However Tony Abbott wasn't picked to captain and spent the next years trashing the game. Julia Gillard doing a juggling act to get legislation through resulted in some very poor compromises which just undermines her credibility and plays into the hands of the cock jocks.

What's most annoying is that when you listen to most independent commentators much of the negativity is completely out of proportion to reality.

As a former RW media guru said...

“It would not be impossible to prove with sufficient repetition and a psychological understanding of the people concerned that a square is in fact a circle. They are mere words, and words can be molded until they clothe ideas and disguise.”
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

No time for either Gillard or Rudd.  They have both proven they are incompetent, and the latter is a megalomaniac (tbh Gillard has been better than Rudd IMO).

Amanda Vanstone has really let rip this morning with this opinion piece:
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/gillard-brought-voters-contempt-upon-herself-20130616-2ocfn.html

How's this for a pearler within the article -
"The Labor member for Adelaide, Kate Ellis, told the world early last year that Kevin Rudd had made some fairly unattractive remarks at the Stag Hotel in Adelaide about the Prime Minister having no children and not being a believer. If Abbott had said anything like that, heaven alone knows what Labor members would say. And yet now the guy who allegedly did say those things is far more popular with Labor voters than she is. Hmm."

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