Former 'Murraylander' sets and 909/907- situation update

 
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
The original post is a bit confusing.
It seems to indicate that 909 is being converted to SG.
Are the SG bogies A1A or CoCO, as 900s were originally 4 motor bogies.
Are the carriages also being converted to SG, in which case where will they run?

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  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
The original post is a bit confusing.
It seems to indicate that 909 is being converted to SG.
Are the SG bogies A1A or CoCO, as 900s were originally 4 motor bogies.
Are the carriages also being converted to SG, in which case where will they run?
MD

Also, would it not be possible if updating to COCO to raise the capacity of the engine and genset? By doing that you would end up with a loco that would possibly be worth hiring on the mainline. It would no longer have EE equipment and be more like a CL or DL inside. The mass would probably go up to around 130t.

But........$$$$$$$$
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Heathy, I would say that what Steve said and you wanted to hear would be two different things, you are absolutely no where near the correct figure, those numbers would not even count as a deposit if you are going to get the likes of EDI, CFCL or Bluebird to work on them. Those figures would barely be material costs, labour and transport costs to any company for work would cripple that budget.

Wayne
hosk1956

well what if you get keen volunteers who are carpenters, etc to do it like what steam ranger does?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Aaron,
The costs that we come up with were:

$5000 for paintwork.
$10,000 for A/C and electrical.
$8000 for bogie inspection and minor repairs.
$7000 for toilet refurbishment.

This would could be carried out on site by volunteers, EDI, CFCL, or Bluebird rail.
Heath Loxton

I think you missed the crux of my post mate.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Heath - I know you were specifically talking about the carriages with the reference to Steamranger but it's worth remebering who sold the 900s to Steve.

While the 900s weren't their core business and they have a 930 for the same tasks, even Steamranger couldn't keep them running. I remember the ARHS vote to sell them; a lot of people wanted to fix them up but reality ultimately prevailed.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Heath - I know you were specifically talking about the carriages with the reference to Steamranger but it's worth remebering who sold the 900s to Steve.

While the 900s weren't their core business and they have a 930 for the same tasks, even Steamranger couldn't keep them running. I remember the ARHS vote to sell them; a lot of people wanted to fix them up but reality ultimately prevailed.
  M636C Minister for Railways

The original post is a bit confusing.
It seems to indicate that 909 is being converted to SG.
Are the SG bogies A1A or CoCO, as 900s were originally 4 motor bogies.
Are the carriages also being converted to SG, in which case where will they run?
MD

The 900 class were designed for easy conversion to standard gauge, as had all steam locomotives since the 500 in 1926.
The original bogies are being used, but these are based on the EMD bogies used by E units in the USA and the design of the suspension does not allow the fitting of a third motor to the bogie. The electrical switchgear would need replacement or modification to feed six motors, just as it would on GM1 to 11. The original designs for the GM used similar bogies, but EMD developed the Flexicoil for the SD7 and a smaller version of that was used for all GM class instead.

There are English Electric engines of the same general type rated at 3200 HP gross, so about 2900 HP into the generator. These would need a new alternator and much larger radiators for a start.

As to the passenger carriages, these are all standard gauge already, at least those that have their own bogies.

Most of these arrived by rail and Tailem Bend hasn't had broad gauge access, even from Victoria, for about twenty years.

M636C
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The 900's I think you find were originally going to be all axles powered as the bogie is made for it but due to weight restrictions at the time it was not possible to do it. So the centre axles were just idlers and not powered at all. The whole thing would need a complete work over though if you did power all axles on one of these, as has been said it was set up for only 4 axles powered so a lot of extra wiring etc would have to be installed to do it. You would probably be better getting a secondhand all axles powered loco in the first place rather that try to convert a 900 to all axles powered now.
  Klink Chief Train Controller

Location: Stalag 13, the toughest POW Camp in all Germany
Correct, no plans to change the wheel arrangement, unless a lot of cash comes up in the future.

As regards carriages, there were originally two full SG sets. One was a 'universal' set which in theory could get anywhere, the other could only be operated north of Adelaide.

Those figures sound somewhat dubious. Of the coaches I went in, one had a reasonably sound interior, just detail damage, the other was missing a chunk of its roof above the door and the floor in one part was sagging like quicksand. A hell of a lot of work needed, $30k is probably just the exterior paintjob!

none of them are going anywhere unless they are a) restored or b) sold, there is no money whatsoever to have Bluebird or who ever fix them, let alone put it on a lowloader or such to Islington.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Klink,
out of curiosity how many carriages were in reasonable interior condition?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Klink,
out of curiosity how many carriages were in reasonable interior condition?
"Heath Loxton"


Serious question for you Heath.......
on the previous page you quoted dollar amounts for repair work to carriages
Now you ask about interior condition of the same carriages you've already quoted repair prices on!
Can you actually detail anything about the repairs or is it all made up guesses from your school project?

{By the way any ideas just how much a custom made sewer retention tank and associated pipework and valves would actually cost}
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Pressman,
or you can just let the poo fall down onto the track like steamranger does...
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Pressman,
or you can just let the poo fall down onto the track like steamranger does...
"Heath Loxton"
Short journeys and use the station facilities first.
  Klink Chief Train Controller

Location: Stalag 13, the toughest POW Camp in all Germany
Most of the carriages that have not been broken into have quite a reasonable internal condition.

However there are plenty of other bits and bobs that need attention for example bogie sag, rust, and a general internal refurbishment to bring them up to expected standards.

not even the best of them is an easy task sadly.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Klink,
what is the condition of the best carriages (paintwork, windows, carpet, etc)?
  Klink Chief Train Controller

Location: Stalag 13, the toughest POW Camp in all Germany
thats really too general to pinpoint on any single carriages.

For example, all the Exterior paintwork is a write off thanks to graffitti or rust,  wil need redoing. The sitting car I went into looked ok paint wise but boy did it have an odour to it.

Some may only need a small amount of cosmetic internal work but the exterior is a killer. id be looking carefully at the electrics etc as the copper thieves have been.busy.

No easy jobs anywhere.
  M636C Minister for Railways

thats really too general to pinpoint on any single carriages.

For example, all the Exterior paintwork is a write off thanks to graffitti or rust, wil need redoing. The sitting car I went into looked ok paint wise but boy did it have an odour to it.

Some may only need a small amount of cosmetic internal work but the exterior is a killer. id be looking carefully at the electrics etc as the copper thieves have been.busy.

No easy jobs anywhere.
Klink

To look on the bright side, the graffiti might be reducing the impact of rust on the lower body sides...

Among the best cars should be four of the five BA sitting cars which were upgraded internally and repainted outside for The Ghan in 1989 or so. The fifth BA wasn't upgraded (and hadn't been painted yellow when I last checked). That BA was hiding between a tree and the roundhouse and I had to look hard to find it. The 700 class ex West Coast was probably in reasonable order when it arrived but I don't know what WCR did to the interior. The two ex NSW sitting cars had been through a number of hands, and the yellow one was painted in Melbourne before being moved to Tailem Bend. In Melbourne the interiors of the NSW cars appeared to have been dismantled. Many of the other vehicles had been rider cars on the Trans Australian and had a hard life before they got to Tailem Bend. The CO which came as an empty shell without bogies had been stored outside at Islington for years, but there isn't much to break or steal in a van...

M636C
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
To look on the bright side, the graffiti might be reducing the impact of rust on the lower body sides...

Among the best cars should be four of the five BA sitting cars which were upgraded internally and repainted outside for The Ghan in 1989 or so. The fifth BA wasn't upgraded (and hadn't been painted yellow when I last checked). That BA was hiding between a tree and the roundhouse and I had to look hard to find it. The 700 class ex West Coast was probably in reasonable order when it arrived but I don't know what WCR did to the interior. The two ex NSW sitting cars had been through a number of hands, and the yellow one was painted in Melbourne before being moved to Tailem Bend. In Melbourne the interiors of the NSW cars appeared to have been dismantled. Many of the other vehicles had been rider cars on the Trans Australian and had a hard life before they got to Tailem Bend. The CO which came as an empty shell without bogies had been stored outside at Islington for years, but there isn't much to break or steal in a van...

M636C
M636C

When I was talking to Steve these were the carriages that we were saying that would be the cheapest to repair with a materials cost of about $30,000 each: The 4 good BA cars, the commonwealth railways diner along with the power and the luggage vans that are in good condition.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
To be really honest Heath I think that most of them are worth more as scrap these days than actual running cars. If any of them were really of easy to restore type of things they would have all been snapped up by now by some organisation or another. However they just sit getting worse everyday. Sort of like those carriages that sat at Port Pirie station with the GM. In the end the vandals won and the cars are now just worth their scrap value. All the cars would need is a complete rewiring going on by what Klink said before you go anywhere that would entail most probably removing a lot of the interiors of these cars to do it. So that alone is not going to come cheap. The other thing is retention toilets these are a must for health reasons these days straight out onto the track is no longer a viable situation if you want to mainline run them anyway over long distances. Steamrangers cars get what is generally called grandfather rights because the cars are either too old to convert, to costly to convert or too historic to convert! Take your pick here!

Do not use Steamranger or like type organisations as your prototype though. They are preserved railways and there are some different rules applied in places when they are using their own tracks etc. Out on the mainline you have to comply with current standards or try to get an exemption if it is at all possible. So you really need to look further than the end of your nose about costs etc. The money needed would most probably run now into millions, any one got a few million in their back pockets!

Also from memory the power car they have is a wooden bodied car that will cut the top speed back for a start simply because it is wood bodied! I seem to remember that 80Kph was the top speed for a wooden bodied car, so if that car was used then the whole train with a much higher speed rating is limited to 80Kph top speed because one car is wooden construction! That was why wood cars were got rid of by AN to up the speeds a lot more!
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Secret agent,
I would consider the too costly retention toilet exemption in order return the good carriages to service, with the least amount of expenditure.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Secret agent,
I would consider the too costly retention toilet exemption in order return the good carriages to service, with the least amount of expenditure.
"Heath Loxton"

Well, then forget getting permission to run them on ARTC (or anyone else's ) tracks, you won't get an exemption.
if you tried the EPA fines would make the cost of retention system seem cheap.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Well, then forget getting permission to run them on ARTC (or anyone else's ) tracks, you won't get an exemption.
if you tried the EPA fines would make the cost of retention system seem cheap.
Pressman

I should have stated that the toilets would not get an exemption that would need to be done, you might scrape some other things past though but even then you would probably need to fix it in the future.

As Pressman said the EPA fines would certainly come to more than the money needed to install the system on those cars. The EPA has their own rules etc separate to any railway operator or rail owner.

You are still living in the past, gone completely  forever now are the days when just about anything could be run on mainlines. Since this last happened there have been a complete rewrite of the operating rules etc so if you don't follow the rules you don't get to play trains, same as in football follow the rules and play or sit on the bench warming it! There are no other options no matter who you think you are!

Even the NRM, Steamranger and PRR have to follow rules and regulations in the rail safety act etc if they want to continue to run anything at all. It is not just a get up and go job anymore! Yes even shunt moves at the NRM come under the rail safety act, nothing is exempt!
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
What are the actual costs of running a fan trip in SA, assuming you have got all the rolling stock and the accredidations.
eg Whats the cost to say run a fan trip from Adelaide to Port Pirie and back.
Fan trips rarely make any money, even if you can get a full load of fans on the train.
It seems that a lot of people who are keen in restoring trains to run fan trips, dont look far enough ahead as to what to do with  the
train after it has been restored.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Also from memory the power car they have is a wooden bodied car that will cut the top speed back for a start simply because it is wood bodied! I seem to remember that 80Kph was the top speed for a wooden bodied car, so if that car was used then the whole train with a much higher speed rating is limited to 80Kph top speed because one car is wooden construction! That was why wood cars were got rid of by AN to up the speeds a lot more!
David Peters

The Murraylander power van that generated all the revenue as an SCT crew car was HRGC 119 which is a Japanese built steel car. SS44 is a wooden bodied car and they don't limit the "Ghan" or "Indian Pacific" to 80km/h when that is in the consist. SS44 has a steel underframe and runs on Budd Car bogies with disc brakes.

M636C
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The Murraylander power van that generated all the revenue as an SCT crew car was HRGC 119 which is a Japanese built steel car. SS44 is a wooden bodied car and they don't limit the "Ghan" or "Indian Pacific" to 80km/h when that is in the consist. SS44 has a steel underframe and runs on Budd Car bogies with disc brakes.

M636C
M636C

That is quite true about the SS44 car but it does not often get a run around these days. But in the event that car was completely rebuilt after that big prang at Broken Hill years back and then more work done on it over the years new bogies and more modern brakes etc on this car and it has also had anti collision beams and a few other things added to boost the safety a lot. So really that car has sort of a special exemption on it would be the way to put it. But in general service a wood car would be restricted in speed if used on a train. I know it has some limitations on that car SS44 as it cannot run in the Eastern States for a start account of the height and width of the car!

I thought that the only power car they had at Tailem Bend was the old standby wood power car that was converted from an old brakevan.

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