Former 'Murraylander' sets and 909/907- situation update

 
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Heathy, I would say that what Steve said and you wanted to hear would be two different things, you are absolutely no where near the correct figure, those numbers would not even count as a deposit if you are going to get the likes of EDI, CFCL or Bluebird to work on them. Those figures would barely be material costs, labour and transport costs to any company for work would cripple that budget.

Wayne
hosk1956

Wayne,
after further discussions with Steve the other night, he told me that if the figure of 30 to 35 thousand dollars per carriage is reached it would be effective to the carriages in the best current condition as some are better than others.

furthermore the workds would not be done by big rail companies that charge through their teeth but by local contractors ie painters, electricians, carpenters, etc.

finally, Steve does have the paperwork for these carriages to assist the contractors.

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  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The work would have to be done by accredited repairers though to be passed as fit to run so you might be forced to use one of the larger repair companies like Bluebird or something. The paper work has to be signed off by someone who knows what they are looking at. The Red Hens at the NRM have hardly had anything done on them except an internal repaint and a external repaint and some rust and corrosion fixed on all the cars. But if they were in need of major work on them then you would have to get in experts etc to do them up. Wiring up a carriage is not quite the same as wiring up a building so you would need specialist skills in most things to get them going again. These specialist are not a charity and would unfortunately charge top dollar or they go out of business!

You would need every thing from a rollingstock engineer to an apprentice whatever on these cars and probably everything in between! The Bluebird Wine Train is a classic example under the cars now is not what was there in SAR days. The 100 class trailer for instance has it's own power generator now that was not there in SAR days! Now to locate that generator you may have to relocate other things to make way for it, it is not as simple as just bolting something on here and there. Under any carriage there are plenty of bits and pieces that might need to be relocated just so you can bolt something on, air lines, brakevalves, electrical, water pipes,etc.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Painting, some carpentry and internal electricals are not going to require regulator sign off.

'Wiring up' a coach is not significantly different to wiring a building, and if it were it's likely to be easier not more specialised.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Painting, some carpentry and internal electricals are not going to require regulator sign off.

'Wiring up' a coach is not significantly different to wiring a building, and if it were it's likely to be easier not more specialised.
Aaron

Yes but it has to be compatible with what is in use now as other cars now have more modern electrical services in them to cope with more equipment that is needed. The wiring inside a car would need to be able to cope with this new load on it. I think you would find it would just in case someone decided to try to get 60+ year old wiring in a car  and use it instead of new wiring just to save a bit of money. The first fire in a car and there would be a lot of questions asked!

Everything has to be to standards and preferably to current standards so rebuilding a car you have to adhere to current standards. Old car's did not even have RCD protection in them That would need to be one thing done to them. All the Jumbos and 3000/3100 had to have this fitted. Look carefully when next in a Jumbo at the power points they have a printed sign on them that says they have been fitted with RCD devices on those circuits. They were not on the original cars as delivered! They were fitted after they had been in service a few years!

Also old cars did not have power points that are provided now in cars to use lap tops and chargers etc. You were lucky to get a power point in a sleeping compartment and then usually only to be used for an electric razor! People today would want this as well as numerous other things like DVD screens and radio type of channels to either look at or listen too. They all use power that was not there in old designs though. Sure modern appliances don't use much electricity but it all adds up in the end though per car.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Wow, an RCD, if that's the most difficult part of a task (and no challenge for any sparky) the Murraylander cars could run next week.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
The 900's I think you find were originally going to be all axles powered as the bogie is made for it but due to weight restrictions at the time it was not possible to do it. So the centre axles were just idlers and not powered at all. The whole thing would need a complete work over though if you did power all axles on one of these, as has been said it was set up for only 4 axles powered so a lot of extra wiring etc would have to be installed to do it. You would probably be better getting a secondhand all axles powered loco in the first place rather that try to convert a 900 to all axles powered now.
David Peters

Well that is interesting, I didn't know that locomotives existed with only 4 powered axles as opposed to the complete 6. Was this a common practise at the time, or was it unique to South Australia and this class of locomotive?
Thanks
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Well that is interesting, I didn't know that locomotives existed with only 4 powered axles as opposed to the complete 6. Was this a common practise at the time, or was it unique to South Australia and this class of locomotive?
Thanks
"seb2351"

Not unique seb, A1A format was popular at the time (particularily in the USA)
Besides the 900's the first series GM's (1-11) were also A1A-A1A
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

A1A-A1A is making a return in the US at the moment, GE sell GEVO locos with four AC traction motors instead of a C-C format with six DC traction motors.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

David

Stick to your usual pessimism and don't get yourself embroiled in something of which you know little.

Whilst I agree the $30,000 allowance for car restoration is optimistic I would not complicate it in the way you have.

Certainly the work has t be signed off by accredited trades but it does not have to be done by them, particularly if it is not the running gear.

As for the electrics on which our David appears to be declaring expertise they are no different from any other moving vehicle. The same rules apply including the same Standards, there is one for such situations AS300x (not in my office to dig it out). The only differences are the need to allow for the relative movement induced by vehicle flexibility and not put stress on the wiring or connections.

PRR and Steam Ranger manage to completely rebuild vehicles and comply with ALL the rail regulations without going to "professionals".
  wurx Lithgovian Ambassador-at-Large

Location: The mystical lost principality of Daptovia
Not unique seb, A1A format was popular at the time (particularily in the USA)
Besides the 900's the first series GM's (1-11) were also A1A-A1A
Pressman

As is this baby:

[img]http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q262/pixwurx/Picton-Mittagong%20Loop%20Line/Thirlmere/IMGP0940_zps63af07ba.jpg[/img]
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
What I was hinting at Steam4ian was that the work could not be done by the so called bush tradesman as Heath was getting at, everything would have to be signed off by someone at some stage who was qualified under what ever act of parliament etc to do so for each trade like Electrical, plumbing etc. The actual work itself can and could be done by anyone though under supervision of who ever is qualified to oversee this type of work though! Just as long as the finished work or whatever is compliant to whatever act it comes under!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The back pedal begins, that is not what you meant at all, in fact if you read it, that's almost exactly what Heath said, let's check:
furthermore the workds would not be done by big rail companies that charge through their teeth but by local contractors ie painters, electricians, carpenters, etc.
"Heath Loxton"
The work would have to be done by accredited repairers though to be passed as fit to run so you might be forced to use one of the larger repair companies like Bluebird or something. The paper work has to be signed off by someone who knows what they are looking at.
"David Peters"
And the back pedal:
What I was hinting at Steam4ian was that the work could not be done by the so called bush tradesman as Heath was getting at,
"David Peters"
Reread my quote of Heath. I am not sure where the bush tradesman got interpolated. He listed three trades, only one of which needs to be specifically licensed.
everything would have to be signed off by someone at some stage who was qualified under what ever act of parliament etc to do so for each trade like Electrical, plumbing etc. The actual work itself can and could be done by anyone though under supervision of who ever is qualified to oversee this type of work though! Just as long as the finished work or whatever is compliant to whatever act it comes under!
"David Peters"
Stick to what you know, and once you've stuck to it, stick to it.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The facts are to restore a car to full mainline standards is going to cost a fortune one way or the other what more needs to be said! Heaths figures would probably not even cover the external repaint costs let alone a full upgrade of a car
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
The facts are to restore a car to full mainline standards is going to cost a fortune one way or the other what more needs to be said! Heaths figures would probably not even cover the external repaint costs let alone a full upgrade of a car
David Peters

Secret agent,
since your acting like your so smart in regards to rail carriage restoration, have YOU ever restored any vehicle yourself to "know the ropes" as such?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
You can buy an AWFUL LOT of paint for $30k! And unsurprisingly to most, you can get nearly 20% more paint for $35k.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Secret agent,
since your acting like your so smart in regards to rail carriage restoration, have YOU ever restored any vehicle yourself to "know the ropes" as such?
Heath Loxton

Good to see you bounce back Heath.

I'm on the other side of the globe and so am content "to light the blue touch paper and retire".

Ian.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Secret agent,
since your acting like your so smart in regards to rail carriage restoration, have YOU ever restored any vehicle yourself to "know the ropes" as such?
Heath Loxton

For your information yes I have and you can see my handiwork as well, I have restored or helped to restore would be a better way to put it several pieces of rollingstock over the years this includes passenger cars and some locomotives even some railcars as well. Would you like to help on one it is hard bloody work at times too and is not for the faint hearted to attempt!

I have needled gunned back the entire front hood of an electric locomotive once just so you could come and look at it and see it nicely painted and restored. It was planned to simply paint over what was there but the front looked shocking after a full day of needle gunning the muck away it was later repainted and looked so much better. I could list quite a few but will refrain.

Even a car that is now grounded permanently I have helped restore, my late father and I and a few other's on our hands and knees moving along the car pulling out nails and tacks etc in the floor so that a new tiled floor could be installed in this car. The car by the way was 75Ft long try it sometime! It now has pride of place in this museum! By the way nearly all the interior in this car had to be removed to get it to how it looks now that included window surrounds as well, it almost but not quite went back to the frame of this car.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Nicely done, and how much were you paid?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Nicely done, and how much were you paid?
Aaron

The exact sum of ZILCH, Nothing!

We do this kind of work just because we like it and to preserve a car etc that needs it. But they have had to get contractors in though to do some work. The Red Hens are an example they were sand blasted back to bare metal then repainted externally all by the contractor at Gods knows what cost but it looks a hell of a lot better though. Most of the other paint jobs are done in house by whoever can hold a paint brush etc.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Good, if that's the case Heath and Steve can get the same job done and still have much of their $30k left... See what we did there?
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Hey,
just a reminder that the planned restoration cost per reasonable conditioned carriage is $30,000 to $35,000.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Good, if that's the case Heath and Steve can get the same job done and still have much of their $30k left... See what we did there?
Aaron

Where in Tailem Bend are you going to get people to work for free Aaron the worse places for unemployment now are out in the country! So I don't think you would have much chance of restoring one or it would have been done by now anyway. You might get one or two people but you will need more than that, people want to put food etc on their family's tables not goodwill. You could of course try to set up a training programme or something but there would go the $30k anyway!

See what I did there!  Laughing
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Where in Tailem Bend are you going to get people to work for free Aaron the worse places for unemployment now are out in the country! So I don't think you would have much chance of restoring one or it would have been done by now anyway. You might get one or two people but you will need more than that, people want to put food etc on their family's tables not goodwill. You could of course try to set up a training programme or something but there would go the $30k anyway!

See what I did there! Laughing
David Peters

I could ask if you're playing with a full deck, but that would be rude. That said, you've left the jokers in haven't you?

There will be volunteers in every community, there is probably some anecdotal evidence to suggest volunteers are more likely to exist in 'country' communities than in cities. The burgeoning metropolises that are Peterborough - you know, where you think a 600 should be sent for a restoration (that you likely think will cost the equivalent of the US national debt) that NRM is unwilling to do with their scores of volunteers, and Pitchi Ritchi clearly source their unpaid volunteers from somewhere, Tailem is veritable short stroll from Adelaide in comparison.
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
I could ask if you're playing with a full deck.....
Aaron

Am I the only one who finds this collective hissy fit less than edifying? This forum has no chance of being taken seriously by those who have the authority to bring about highly desirable improvements in our very backward Australian railway infrastructure while a few members post trivia (not just in this discussion) at every available opportunity.

I get the strong impression that some here wish to display their negativity about railway progress by submitting enigmatic and/or ill-written comments for the sake of seeing their names in print. I note also that most readers post rarely or never (and maybe have stopped reading a very valuable instrument for change) because they can't bring themselves to descend to this abysmal level.

The old adage applies – 'If you can't say anything nice(ly) don't say anything at all.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

There will be two big problems with trying to attract any volunteers to help with any of this stuff at Tailem Bend:

1. The location. Country areas may have a higher rate of volunteerism in general but that's still going to work out to a lower absolute number than in an urban area, and an even lower number who might be specifically interested in a railway project - therefore the volunteers would have to come from Adelaide. People volunteer with railway groups because they love rail stuff, not because they've woken up one morning and discovered they have spare time they just have to fill it with something (the cabals of musty old fogeys building their little empires at rail groups would deter any casual volunteer).

2. The lack of credibility. The NRM, Steamranger and Pichi Richi have well known names and reputations established by industry/government affiliations (the degree of which has varied over time) which provide something that a potential volunteer can aspire to be a part of carrying forward.
In contrast, here all we have is a bloke called Steve (no organisation name, let alone one with the mendacious inclusion of grandiose words like National or Steam) with a handful of pensioned-off carriages rusting away in a nondescript weedy yard and no clear indication of what common purpose people would be working towards. Would it be the establishment of a new museum, operation of tourist trains, doing them up to sell them as crew cars, or is it simply a bigger version of a "project car" appearing in the shed to tinker around with during a mid-life crisis?

Combine the two, and you can see why it would probably be hard to convince a rail enthusiast looking to volunteer somewhere to keep going past the Mt Barker exit if they took a trip up the freeway. There's a lot of hard work to be done before things get to the point that the theoretical Steve Association might be able to attract volunteers.

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