Former 'Murraylander' sets and 909/907- situation update

 
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

From the other side of the Pacific it is interesting watching the line of argument here.

I find myself agreeing with both Brian 526 and Justapax.

I tend to agree with Heath that excluding significant running gear work $35k would have a chance of getting a vehicle back into traffic with significant volunteer input.

The weakness in the argument is the purpose for which the car/s would be restored. I personally find it hand to find a cause that would generate the volunteer effort.

However, I do think that forums like this should allow reasonable room for dreaming and debate of those dreams, not to crush the dream,  but  to underline the factually steps which might be required for the dream to become a reality.

Heath, you have "cause", now find compelling reasons why that cause should be fulfilled and supported.

BTW I have travelled in "recovered cars" on the Grand Canyon Railway; recovered because they have a cause.

Regards
Ian

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  BIG-BEAR Chief Train Controller

If any of the carriages where restored .

What is stopping the vandals again from doing what they do and there is no under cover storage at Tailem bend so the weather would take effect as well .

I can't see any market where the Murray lander could run trains again to make money as they didn't get of the ground years ago and since then unemployment is on the rise and only going to get worse in the years ahead with Holden and other company's closing down .

Its hard enough at times for Steam ranger and Pichi Richi to get bums on seats  . The population of SA is a lot smaller than NSW & VIC where there is support for a lot of different groups .

I can only see the odd carriage being restored by Steam rail . Who I think are interested in the 700 class cars for there standard gauge train venture.

Or maybe Steam town where they may like a 900 class loco or the odd carriage .

In some way the only hope where Steve could of got some pocket money from his collection was to turn it into a museum ( diesel town ) something like Steam town . Council may have jump on board like the Peterborough council did for Steam town .

But now the roundhouse building has gone and no undercover storage is left . That chance has gone .
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The history of other failed 'functioning museum' type ventures in South Australia (and elsewhere) doesn't bode well for that type of tourism.  Occasionally it does work but even then they're often still reliant on government to provide insurance and capital works -
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA

I tend to agree with Heath that excluding significant running gear work $35k would have a chance of getting a vehicle back into traffic with significant volunteer input.
steam4ian

Steve Moritz told me that the bogies, wheel sets and other running gear are nowhere near their "bogie inspection" dates. because they have not been running, very little work is needed on the bogies of the cars that are in better condition.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
A1A-A1A is making a return in the US at the moment, GE sell GEVO locos with four AC traction motors instead of a C-C format with six DC traction motors.
justapassenger

And drivers describe such GE's as crap.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
The history of other failed 'functioning museum' type ventures in South Australia (and elsewhere) doesn't bode well for that type of tourism.  Occasionally it does work but even then they're often still reliant on government to provide insurance and capital works -
"don_dunstan"

As far as I have ever been aware the collection of locos and rollingstock  stored at Tailem Bend and Owned by Mr. Moritz is a Private Collection nothing more, nothing less.
And from recent news, everything is up for sale!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
As far as I have ever been aware the collection of locos and rollingstock stored at Tailem Bend and Owned by Mr. Moritz is a Private Collection nothing more, nothing less.
And from recent news, everything is up for sale!
Pressman

And that's the point isn't it - what does a prospective owner do with all that stuff?

There was a discussion about this in the Seymour Heritage group thread - there's a lot of locomotives and rolling stock around and not very much use for it nationally (on any gauge).  Not for commercial use, not for tourist or museum purposes... not anything. You could spend a bit of money on proper electrics and retention toilets etc as discussed here but then what could you do with them afterwards?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
The trouble today is anything over 25 years of age is considered a museum piece there are constant referrals in media articles and letters etc about even the 3000/3100 railcars here being old by the general publics standards, this is after they were upgraded as well so anything to get the public and bums on seats is going to have to be or at least look up to date for them to ride it. The Redhens lasted 40 years in almost the same condition inside as when first built and no one complained, but if there was a railcar shortage tomorrow and Adelaide Metro leased them for a month say then all they would get would be complaints about the dirty smelly and uncomfortable and non air conditioned railcars!

The public these days are spoiled so if you cannot really get a train up to the publics standards then you are better off not even attempting it. The public on a real mainline type train is not interested in history but in luxury and speed on a trip. For short duration trips they will ride historic cars though.

Could you imagine the out cry if a string of Steamranger Centenary cars was put onto standard gauge and marshalled up in Keswick platform as the daylight trip to Melbourne, there would be more complaints than praise. Even if it was only a once off re-enactment or something!
  BIG-BEAR Chief Train Controller

The trouble today is anything over 25 years of age is considered a museum piece there are constant referrals in media articles and letters etc about even the 3000/3100 railcars here being old by the general publics standards, this is after they were upgraded as well so anything to get the public and bums on seats is going to have to be or at least look up to date for them to ride it. The Redhens lasted 40 years in almost the same condition inside as when first built and no one complained, but if there was a railcar shortage tomorrow and Adelaide Metro leased them for a month say then all they would get would be complaints about the dirty smelly and uncomfortable and non air conditioned railcars!

The public these days are spoiled so if you cannot really get a train up to the publics standards then you are better off not even attempting it. The public on a real mainline type train is not interested in history but in luxury and speed on a trip. For short duration trips they will ride historic cars though.

Could you imagine the out cry if a string of Steamranger Centenary cars was put onto standard gauge and marshalled up in Keswick platform as the daylight trip to Melbourne, there would be more complaints than praise. Even if it was only a once off re-enactment or something!
David Peters

What has railcars around Adelaide or Steamranger Centenary cars got anything do with the Murray lander collection .

I would be happy to go on a trip to Melbourne on any of Steamrangers carriages . head out of the window factor

If you go on the Overland , Murraylander , Steamranger , Adelaide metro , etc you know what you are getting .

I think you are so out of touch david with the public .
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I only used Steamrangers cars as an example to say the public in general would mumble at anything that is not modern by general public standards. On preserved or operating tourist lines they would accept it because it is only a day trip in most cases or a couple of hours at least. But to go on a lengthy trip to say Broken Hill they will want a bit of comfort not rehashed 1950 or 60 type of cars! Only us Gunzels would suffer like that and enjoy it.

It does not have to be overboard but comfortable  and up to date type seats are a must and up to date food type cars are also a must. If you can get a full dining car for a long trip all the better. Anything though that goes over a day trip they will want comfortable sleeping quarters though that are comfy and cosy so to speak.

Look what GSR had to do to their cars, as even more modern ones were starting to get stale so they were upgraded internally to be a bit more up market than formerly, they are probably at the stage of thinking about doing it again I would imagine as it has been sometime since the last few cars were upgraded. The public would judge your train against what GSR or other operators would run. You could never compete with them though.

In general public I have also included tourist's that might want to travel as well.
  witsend Chief Commissioner

Location: Front RH Seat of a School Bus
People saw YPR's red hen/superchook, and once they stepped inside would frequently say, "wow, this has been done up nicely". It did give us something over the other Red Hen Operators, but they'd be committed for a full day with us too.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Look what GSR had to do to their cars, as even more modern ones were starting to get stale so they were upgraded internally to be a bit more up market than formerly, they are probably at the stage of thinking about doing it again I would imagine as it has been sometime since the last few cars were upgraded. The public would judge your train against what GSR or other operators would run. You could never compete with them though.

In general public I have also included tourist's that might want to travel as well.
David Peters

This reminds me of the conversation last year about the viability of the Overland and what might be required to make it more appealing to the public.

My impression of the refurbished Overland cars was not particularly good - it was a make-over with new plush fittings but not much else - the seats weren't even new as I recall.  I think if you are aiming for long-haul to be competitive you need to offer something special for either tourists, gunzels or the regular public - something a bit higher quality or more appealing?

It would be interesting to know what sort of average speed/long haul services are successful overseas, be it 'vintage' rolling stock or new.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
This reminds me of the conversation last year about the viability of the Overland and what might be required to make it more appealing to the public.

My impression of the refurbished Overland cars was not particularly good - it was a make-over with new plush fittings but not much else - the seats weren't even new as I recall. I think if you are aiming for long-haul to be competitive you need to offer something special for either tourists, gunzels or the regular public - something a bit higher quality or more appealing?

It would be interesting to know what sort of average speed/long haul services are successful overseas, be it 'vintage' rolling stock or new.
don_dunstan

Yes that was what I was trying to point out you have to have something a bit more special than what is elsewhere to get the general public to ride your train. It also has to be done tastefully as well. Modern plastic fantastic interiors though just do not cut the mustard with most people as they usually look drab and uninviting. Easy to clean though.

Our Flexity trams here are a case in point they look inside very drab and uninviting up against the Citadis trams which are light and spacious a lot more! The inside of a Fexity is standard plastic fantastic almost and very dull inside in nearly all dark grey colours. While the Citadis interior has a lot more of white used and it is brighter and  feels more airy and spacious inside as well. They are both modern types though but the Flexity is now looking very drab against the Citadis trams! It does not take long to do this though, they are still well kept but the gloss has gone off them now that the public is used to them.

People here are now moaning that even the 3000/3001 trains are old hat but they are still light years in front of a Jumbo interior which are very cramped and dull. To most that have used trains as a means of transport for decades and this includes me, I cannot really see what they are whinging about. Anything is better than an old Brill railcar set or even a Red Hen set. They all want Rolls Royce interior standards for railcars, but unfortunately it is never going to happen though.

But getting back to the actual subject at hand you need something extra special to get the general public to ride any train that is not a regular service type of train. Things like sleeping cars, dining cars, observation cars, or even entertainment cars.  All of which are missing on the Overland service which is really only a glorified bus service now!

The Orient Express train is one such example of going the extra mile to get people to ride a train, it gives good old fashioned service in cars that make you feel you have stepped back in time but are up to modern standards though, but it comes at a price!
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
People here are now moaning.....
David Peters

People who moan about the 3000s (except that they should be in sets of three or four at busy times) must have rocks in their heads. They certainly can't have travelled far from Victoria Square. The interiors are world standard for suburban trains.

As for the Overland seating, my experience is that in design and leg room they are comparable to business class aircraft seats. The train is a comfortable, though tedious, ride taking far too long due to the lack of double track, which should be continuous at least from Brisbane to Adelaide if Australian railways are to be regarded as anything but a bad joke when compared to overseas systems. I'm not talking high speed rail here, just a good ride at 120Ks or so.

The interstate buses are good and are fairly comfortable, certainly better than cattle class in aircraft, but every second on our interstate 'highways' is a dangerous one where the excellent bus drivers and their passengers are at the mercy of other road users. A nightly service comparable to that of the Overland in the 1950s would, I think, soon attract payable custom. I've done a lot of surface travel between Melbourne and Adelaide over the last three quarters of a century, and long to be able to sleep on a train again instead of sitting up all night. There doesn't even need to be bedding, just the ability to lie down under a rug as has been common overseas since time immemorial.

Am I scared of flying? No. I've been around the world a couple of times, but infinitely prefer to see the scenery and really feel that I am travelling.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Secret agent,
have you ever seriously considered running a rail service like Steve and I have?

or are you just making your posts up as you go along?

im NOT trying to offend you. just questioning the accuracy of your country rail information.
  BIG-BEAR Chief Train Controller

Secret agent,
have you ever seriously considered running a rail service like Steve and I have?
Heath Loxton

Dear Heath

Steve had a go to run a rail service and for a number of reasons it didn't get of the ground .

I dare say alot of money was invested for not much return . Which is not away a business stays in business .

As for you heath who is still in school .

You have some life lessons ahead of you even before you can think of running a rail service .

Like the running cost of a car or even paying rent or a mortgage .

It's called money . You can't spend what you don't have .
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Dear Heath

Steve had a go to run a rail service and for a number of reasons it didn't get of the ground .

I dare say alot of money was invested for not much return . Which is not away a business stays in business .

As for you heath who is still in school .

You have some life lessons ahead of you even before you can think of running a rail service .

Like the running cost of a car or even paying rent or a mortgage .

It's called money . You can't spend what you don't have .
BIG-BEAR

Yes what Big Bear said is the truth Heath once you get out into the big bad world at large you are in for a heck of a shock. Money does not grow on trees and you cannot build it and they will come, things like this have been proved time and time again.

Also you are what 16 or so you have a long way to go to catch up to me though I have been in this world 60 years this year and have seen everything from the last steam trains in service to the modern electric trains. Also I am a volunteer at a rail preservation site for hands on work doing a lot of different jobs, even fixing at times some things to keep existing locomotives and railcars mobile.

You also say that you have run train's along with Steve Moritz, funny I have never heard of your train or company. Can you supply more details please for all of us. Steve's I have as I have seen it run, but yours is rather invisible! I don't count running a model train around a loop of track on your kitchen table as running trains though!

To make money you have to spend money, if you dont have the money nothing really will get done!
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

You also say that you have run train's along with Steve Moritz, funny I have never heard of your train or company. Can you supply more details please for all of us.
"David Peters"
I think company is the wrong word to use. Try consortium instead.


(runs for cover)
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
(I) have seen everything from the last steam trains in service to the modern electric trains.
David Peters

Such qualifications!

You also say that you have run train's along with Steve Moritz, funny I have never heard of your train or company. Can you supply more details please for all of us.
David Peters

Can you supply us with the reference of where Heath said he had run a company or train? I see reference to neither. I am not certain there even needs to be a 'company', let alone one you've heard of.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I think company is the wrong word to use. Try consortium instead.


(runs for cover)
justapassenger

A lot more correct, though not well understood round here.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Secret agent,
have you ever seriously considered running a rail service like Steve and I have?
Heath Loxton

The way he worded this can be taken as he has tried to have done it, he has not worded it well. I was only going on what he put up here and that sentence says to most that read it that he along with Steve Moritz have both run trains here. I simply asked for his details of his equipment that he used! Yes it was a bit of sarcasm that you picked on. And like some others have said writing an essay and getting a few friends together does not make you a train operator. Consortium might be the actual better word to use but Heath implied he was a train operator!
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Hi,
as soon as I leave school at the end of year 12 I am going to set up my proposed "Sakinekt" business. it will be in operation by 2019, or 2020 at the latest. so regional rail will be in SA within 5 to 6 years!!!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
South Australia has a really concentrated population base in comparison to (say) Victoria where it's much more decentralised in larger regional centres like Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo. That's why we have our successful interurban rail network over here; it's got to do with the population distribution that South Australia just doesn't have.

Anyway - finding a tourist or excursion use for those Murraylander cars will be extremely difficult if the remaining Mallee/Riverland lines are closed down. It's a shame the money to gauge-convert those lines wasn't spent on the South East instead, perhaps they would have been more viable for G&W to operate.
  BIG-BEAR Chief Train Controller

Hi,
as soon as I leave school at the end of year 12 I am going to set up my proposed "Sakinekt" business. it will be in operation by 2019, or 2020 at the latest. so regional rail will be in SA within 5 to 6 years!!!
Heath Loxton

Heath you are starting to sound like a tranzit jim .

Full of ideas and no money and no common sense .

In 5 to 6 years it looks like there will be only the main lines in SA left .

I don't think the mainline  operaters will let a putt putt operater on those lines .

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