Trainorama S Class clicking bogie

 
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Rod,

It sounded like the Blacksmith thought the meshing problem occurred further up in the drive train. May have interpreted his description incorrectly. I have only heard of the muff gear being too narrow and not meshing correctly. I guess if the idler gear is also too narrow that will not help the skinny muff. I have to place an order with NWSL for some wheels so will grab one of their muffs also. I have heard that they actually made the gear wider which should help things. I am sure if the muff splits this is also a big problem. I have some bowser mechs where this same thing has occurred. The wheels don't stay fitted anymore big problem. Time to make some of these gears also.

Hopefully with the NWSL version in hand I can get up to Moss Vale and cut a few gears. My mate is biting at the bit to get stuck into it. He loves showing us young fellas how to machine things up.

I have never seen flat spots on a model locomotive wheel before that have occurred during use! Interesting.

Linton
linton78

Hi Linton
Yes I agree that is also how I interpreted what Geoff said. I was only wondering if the muff already deliberately designed to be offset, could slide further over one stub axle and to maintain gauge have the other stub inserted a shorter distance thus allowing the internal gear to be further out of alignment. Unfortunately I am not in a position to pull the engine apart and check just now.
Cheers
Rod

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  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
When this problem was first noticed, Roachie sent me over a bogie to examine, so I disassembled it and this is what I found:



The problem was that the intermediate gears in the gear train were quite narrow, when they did not need to be. If you look at the two gears of the intermediate gear train, indicated by the red arrow, you will notice they are only barely in mesh. In addition, they are able to slide sideways to some extent, and when they do this, they can slip out of mesh. This characteristically happens when the locomotive is under load, or on curves. And it is what causes the clicking sound, not split gears at all, but the teeth of the two gears clicking from one tooth to the next.

You will notice just to the right of the red arrow, the half-round area where the wheel-set sits, and normally it meshes quite well with the intermediate gears. There have been some issue with split muffs, but again, this is not the cause of the clicking sound.

The simplest solution to the problem is to increase the width of the intermediate gears so that they can slide sideways but stay in mesh. However to solve the problem for the customers with clicking, and therefore slipping drive trains, would require the whole bogie to be disassembled to replace the gears.

My view was that many modellers would not be able to perform this work, and the simplest solution would be to replace the entire bogie.

Geoff
TheBlacksmith

Sorry I missed this post in my last reply.
That is much worse than I thought, and I did misunderstand after all. With permission I will send this off to Trainorama and we can compare it with the the bogies from the Helgin factory. Although the specifications remained as sent to the SandaKan factory originally, I cannot imagine the Helgin mob would reproduce such a shoddy product. The old man who started off SandaKan must have the horrors by now, when he sees what they did to his Company.
It would be good if I/ we  can talk Trainorama into producing spare bogies with upgraded bits in his next runs of the 44 Class and the Bulldogs. But anybody who put an epoxy kit together or upgraded a Lima B Class to Atlas mech would surely be able to replace a set of gears. It might be worthwhile to supply gears as well as bogies and then this problem should go away.

Bill where did you put your spacers? I thought you put them on the axles?
Cheers
Rod
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Bill where did you put your spacers? I thought you put them on the axles?
Cheers
Rod
comtrain

No Rod.....I wasn't aware/concerned about the mis-mesh of the idler to idler gears. My original concern was that the idler gear that meshes with the axle muff gear was the problem. That problem was exacerbated by the amount of lateral (ie: side to side) travel that the axles were capable of achieving.

I deduced that if the axles could be held in a "fixed" position (relatively speaking), then those gears would stay well meshed.

As such, I added (glued) 6 small styrene shims to the inner side of the side frames. These shims served the purpose of stopping the axles sliding from side to side between the side frames and thus kept the muff in good mesh with it's immediate idler gear.

If I could add another idea to the wish list for a redesigned bogie, it would be that the bronze axle journals (aka "hornblocks") should be provided with a shoulder on the 2 sides (outer sides) so that these bearings cannot be allowed to venture inboard to a position where they can almost fall out of position on the steel side frames that they are supposed to slot in to (which is how the power pick-up is achieved). I realise this idea will never come into being as the cost involved would be prohibitive, due to the extra machining involved. I guess a cheaper method would be if they made those bearings thicker too, so that they would have a better chance of staying in the cut-out of the inner, steel side frames.

However, that issue can be addressed by the addition of thin washers either side of the bronze bearings (ie: one between the inner face of the wheel/s and the bearing and then another one between the bearing and the muff). I haven't bothered doing that (yet) as the problem isn't as pronounced once I stopped the whole axle/s from sliding side to side with my styrene shims.

Roachie
  a6et Minister for Railways

No Rod.....I wasn't aware/concerned about the mis-mesh of the idler to idler gears. My original concern was that the idler gear that meshes with the axle muff gear was the problem. That problem was exacerbated by the amount of lateral (ie: side to side) travel that the axles were capable of achieving.

I deduced that if the axles could be held in a "fixed" position (relatively speaking), then those gears would stay well meshed.

As such, I added (glued) 6 small styrene shims to the inner side of the side frames. These shims served the purpose of stopping the axles sliding from side to side between the side frames and thus kept the muff in good mesh with it's immediate idler gear.

If I could add another idea to the wish list for a redesigned bogie, it would be that the bronze axle journals (aka "hornblocks") should be provided with a shoulder on the 2 sides (outer sides) so that these bearings cannot be allowed to venture inboard to a position where they can almost fall out of position on the steel side frames that they are supposed to slot in to (which is how the power pick-up is achieved). I realise this idea will never come into being as the cost involved would be prohibitive, due to the extra machining involved. I guess a cheaper method would be if they made those bearings thicker too, so that they would have a better chance of staying in the cut-out of the inner, steel side frames.

However, that issue can be addressed by the addition of thin washers either side of the bronze bearings (ie: one between the inner face of the wheel/s and the bearing and then another one between the bearing and the muff). I haven't bothered doing that (yet) as the problem isn't as pronounced once I stopped the whole axle/s from sliding side to side with my styrene shims.

Roachie
Roachie

[img]http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww120/a6et/replacementwheelTOR44_zps17625f8d.jpg[/img]
above photo of a replacement axle from TOR
  FirstStopCentral Chief Train Controller

[img]http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/ww120/a6et/replacementwheelTOR44_zps17625f8d.jpg[/img]
above photo of a replacement axle from TOR
a6et


Are the faces of the wheel at least blackened?

Looks like they got Powerline to make them for them.


Paul
  a6et Minister for Railways

Are the faces of the wheel at least blackened?

Looks like they got Powerline to make them for them.


Paul
FirstStopCentral

The photo was taken around 4 minutes before being posted & without a flash. So they look dark & the object of the photo was to show the gear & spacers, & no they are not from Powerline but from the new factory that TOR uses, PL uses the same factory as Auscision or did. The wheel faces are no different to the originals.

Edit in.  They are no more, nor no less shiny than any other manufacturers wheels.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Thanks Bill,
You said "If I could add another idea to the wish list for a redesigned bogie, it would be that the bronze axle journals (aka "hornblocks") should be provided with a shoulder on the 2 sides (outer sides) so that these bearings cannot be allowed to venture inboard to a position where they can almost fall out of position on the steel side frames that they are supposed to slot in to (which is how the power pick-up is achieved)."

Now that is an excellent idea. I am not sure if any of the manufacturers are going to be able to do that any time soon?
But would the Blacksmith think we could make those bronze bushes the way Bill described. If some of you saw my T Class melt down, picture you will have noticed the bronze bush had slipped out of position and appeared to be the source of the heat (short) If it had stayed in position, the damage may not have happened. I have noticed the same bush is used in Trainorama, Austrains and Auscision engines. Possibly Powerline as well? (not game to open it up and look Sad ) It might make a very useful cottage industry product if they are all the same size as they do appear.
When I was using dead frogs a few years back (waiting point motors) I noticed the same engines always stalled. When I pulled them off the track, I found one bogie was not picking up power. On examination found the metal side plates were loose allowing the bronze bushes to float. At first I thought it was the plastic push on connectors, but after removing them and soldering the wires on, I still had one side not picking up. I also had trouble keeping the bronze bush seated. So I washed the bogie in an ultrasonic cleaning bath and then glued the metal frames to the plastic gear towers and reassembled them with teflon grease. Never had a problem with those ones since.
So I guess that's another reason those tower gears might be going out of mesh?


ah! found the pictures, and they are interesting!



The wheels removed from bogie. The bronze bush was inside the metal side frame



Separated showing damage

And a6et,
it would seem that comparing my picture to yours that the new factory is exactly replicating the work of the old factory, at least as far as the wheel is concerned. That is dissapointing. I guess Trainorama own the bogie mechanism and the dies for them. As the gear tower is exactly the same as the Austrains one, I thought it might have been generic SandaKan. The Austrains side frames and the Trainorama side frames are different designs, and look different, however they are interchangeable. (My 5 X Class all sport S Class side frames on Austrains supplied gear towers)

Cheers
Rod
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks Bill,
You said "If I could add another idea to the wish list for a redesigned bogie, it would be that the bronze axle journals (aka "hornblocks") should be provided with a shoulder on the 2 sides (outer sides) so that these bearings cannot be allowed to venture inboard to a position where they can almost fall out of position on the steel side frames that they are supposed to slot in to (which is how the power pick-up is achieved)."

Now that is an excellent idea. I am not sure if any of the manufacturers are going to be able to do that any time soon?
But would the Blacksmith think we could make those bronze bushes the way Bill described. If some of you saw my T Class melt down, picture you will have noticed the bronze bush had slipped out of position and appeared to be the source of the heat (short) If it had stayed in position, the damage may not have happened. I have noticed the same bush is used in Trainorama, Austrains and Auscision engines. Possibly Powerline as well? (not game to open it up and look Sad ) It might make a very useful cottage industry product if they are all the same size as they do appear.
When I was using dead frogs a few years back (waiting point motors) I noticed the same engines always stalled. When I pulled them off the track, I found one bogie was not picking up power. On examination found the metal side plates were loose allowing the bronze bushes to float. At first I thought it was the plastic push on connectors, but after removing them and soldering the wires on, I still had one side not picking up. I also had trouble keeping the bronze bush seated. So I washed the bogie in an ultrasonic cleaning bath and then glued the metal frames to the plastic gear towers and reassembled them with teflon grease. Never had a problem with those ones since.
So I guess that's another reason those tower gears might be going out of mesh?


ah! found the pictures, and they are interesting!



The wheels removed from bogie. The bronze bush was inside the metal side frame



Separated showing damage

And a6et,
it would seem that comparing my picture to yours that the new factory is exactly replicating the work of the old factory, at least as far as the wheel is concerned. That is dissapointing. I guess Trainorama own the bogie mechanism and the dies for them. As the gear tower is exactly the same as the Austrains one, I thought it might have been generic SandaKan. The Austrains side frames and the Trainorama side frames are different designs, and look different, however they are interchangeable. (My 5 X Class all sport S Class side frames on Austrains supplied gear towers)

Cheers
Rod
comtrain

Rod.

The aspect for me in this is everyone who is complaining about this is pointing to the TOR models, nothing so far that I have seen regarding the others who used the same factory, namely SDK, what looks different is the actual gear set up that in the case of yours, its a white casting & on the TOR models black. Is there a difference in the type of Plastic/delrin used in them.

The replacement set I have has the side metal bushes are floating & not fixed, as against the gear tower which is. If they are the same as you suggest as found in the PL & Auscision models does that suggest a fairly common or standard wheel & gear assembly that is produced in China?

The other question of course comes from the new TOR gear assemblies from their new factory, & that shapes up based on the quality they produce. As I understand the factory now used by TOR also supplies models for the European & British markets under the Heljan label, so the question is, are those models or do or have any of the models produced for Heljan as well as other brand show up this problem likewise, the other companies such as Hornby, Bachmann & associated brands produced by SDK have the same problems?

If those latter brands do not have the problems then what I see in this is that both the Australian & U.S clients have been the main ones affected by the quality issues.

Looking at the photo's & comparison, the plastic shaft to the left side of the gear appears to be slightly longe than on your one, while the right hand side that has melted appears the same as with the replacement.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The bronze bearings are, as far as I can determine, sintered bronze. Sintered bronze is good material for bearings because it consists of granules of bronze that have been fused together under pressure and heat, and has a very good ability to hold oil on the minute spaces in the material. So adding a flange to one side would be a case of modifying the die that is used to make the bearings, and should be possible.'

Looking at the bearing in Rod's photo, the one on the side that melted looks to me to be darker in colour that the other side, indicating perhaps that the bearing ran very hot. The heat that melted the muff could have been caused by the bearing running dry, however it is more likely a result of arcing between the axle and the bearing due to the power collection process. Rod could confirm this by looking at the stub axle inside that bearing, it may shows sign of an arc pitted surface.

This is one of the drawbacks of split frame pickup designs, the power is collected by the wheels and passed to the metal frame cheeks through the sintered bearing. That bearing must have a liberal coating of oil on it to allow the axle to rotate freely, and that oil is the enemy of power pickup. There is an inevitable arcing occurring between the axle and bearing, and that can introduce enough heat to melt the muff, and is a self perpetuating process because as it causes pitting on the surface of the axle, it encourages even more arcing to occur.

White Delrin is just as good as black Delrin.

TOR were well aware of the issue of the intermediate gears not meshing properly, as the owner contacted me shortly after I published that photograph several years ago and we discussed the problem and how to fix it.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The bronze bearings are, as far as I can determine, sintered bronze. Sintered bronze is good material for bearings because it consists of granules of bronze that have been fused together under pressure and heat, and has a very good ability to hold oil on the minute spaces in the material. So adding a flange to one side would be a case of modifying the die that is used to make the bearings, and should be possible.'

Looking at the bearing in Rod's photo, the one on the side that melted looks to me to be darker in colour that the other side, indicating perhaps that the bearing ran very hot. The heat that melted the muff could have been caused by the bearing running dry, however it is more likely a result of arcing between the axle and the bearing due to the power collection process. Rod could confirm this by looking at the stub axle inside that bearing, it may shows sign of an arc pitted surface.

This is one of the drawbacks of split frame pickup designs, the power is collected by the wheels and passed to the metal frame cheeks through the sintered bearing. That bearing must have a liberal coating of oil on it to allow the axle to rotate freely, and that oil is the enemy of power pickup. There is an inevitable arcing occurring between the axle and bearing, and that can introduce enough heat to melt the muff, and is a self perpetuating process because as it causes pitting on the surface of the axle, it encourages even more arcing to occur.

White Delrin is just as good as black Delrin.

TOR were well aware of the issue of the intermediate gears not meshing properly, as the owner contacted me shortly after I published that photograph several years ago and we discussed the problem and how to fix it.
TheBlacksmith

Hollywood

How does the axle compare (based on photo only is hard) to the original set up in the TOR models?

My understanding when I spoke to a fellow at the shop, who is involved with the main team now is that when the problem was discussed with the present new factory, the replacement sets would fix the problem.

In this case the ability or otherwise of the replacements are an unknown untill one of them fails, hopefully not.  The other aspect is are these wheel & muffs the same as found on other locomotives from other companies?
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Hi All,
the axle may not be that easy to find as the picture was taken a few months back.

Colin That white muff is out of a Bendigo Rail Models (Standard Auscision, I think?) T Class I might have not made that clear enough. The Flat top T caused a short leaving the yard and it took me a few minutes (2?) to grab it off the track. Already one wheel was leaning over telling me I had a problem.
My 15 NCE short circuit protectors actually arrived today. I am going to remove the 50 odd stop tail globes I used to prevent shorts and divide up the railway into NCE blocks. They are digital, cost effective and one of the two best available on the market. The best one (DCC concepts in WA?) is slightly less than double the price.

I am not positive they are needed as holding a 1 amp slow blow fuse over the rail lights the elements brightly then dulls as the solid state cap breaks and fails to blow the fuse. Not sure if it the right thing to do, but having a meter set to amps in series with the fuse shows about .150 amps continuous after an initial 5 amp hit for about a second before contact is broken. The globes appear to work as promised.

You do notice however that if you run 3 tsunami sound locos in MU some of the globes do not trip the solid state fuse, but the stop element does start to glow slightly.
I would like to see any answers to the circuit breaker fuse thing started off in a new thread, just because David Head is a nice bloke and it will save him the trouble of moving it Very Happy

Cheers
Rod
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Found the wheels still sitting where I left them Sad  Must clean this place up, I have been looking for bits of an Alco brass Walker 153 for near two years already Sad


Wheel set put back together. Not sure that is anything else but crud on the rhs.



wheels different views







Bushes  I guess it does not show much.
Cheers
Rod
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
All of the damage depicted in those photos is resultant, none of it looks causative to me, and the bearing design has played little if any part in the issue.

The bearing cannot move to cause a short, the wheel, stub axle, bearing and the pickup the bearing sits in are always live and always of the same polarity. To short, your bearing(s) would both have to migrate to the centre of the muff whilst still maintaining contact with their stub axle and make subsequent contact with each other, thus joining opposite rail polarities together.

The bearing moving along the stub might cause an open circuit to the pickup steel, but that's an opposite problem and would generate zero heat.

What we see in those images is a loco that at has undergone a traditional short situation, likely being run against a point, or less likely, possibly an internal wiring fault, or highly unlikely, a motor stalling event. The latter two are unlikely to generate sufficient current draw to cause the heating witnessed.

That particular stub axle has seen more heat (higher current flow) than the others within the bogie probably because it was the only axle placed in the short circuit, or perhaps because via a thinner coating of oil on the axle/bearing interface it was able to conduct current with less loss, hence more current than other circuit paths.

Any discolouration in the stub shaft, axle, tire or bearing are likely only attributed to the heating the various metals and oil expeirenced on their way to the 160 ish + degrees required to 'soften' Delrin.
  bjviper Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisvegas
I would have to agree with Aaron.  The melted muff is due to the stub axle heating up at the point of the short circuit, not from bearing failure.  Rod may be able to confirm, but I bet it was the leading axle too?  

On a side note, this is a perfect demonstration of why you shouldn't use globes as short circuit protection! Idea
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
I would have to agree with Aaron. The melted muff is due to the stub axle heating up at the point of the short circuit, not from bearing failure. Rod may be able to confirm, but I bet it was the leading axle too?

On a side note, this is a perfect demonstration of why you shouldn't use globes as short circuit protection! Idea
bjviper

Yes it was.
It left the yard which was protected by Command Station 1 and entered Command Station 2 territory.
Command Station 2 was the helix which is only protected by the Digirax DB150.  Command Station 1 runs to the yard via a twin element stop/tail globe with a solid state cap separating the elements. For approx 1 sec full current flows through and lights up both elements, reducing amps to about 1. The solid state cap melts and cuts off the heavier element leaving a path via the tail lamt 4 watt element allowing about .2 amps to flow. The illuminated globe sent me to the loco which I lifted off the track, and the lead wheel set was already damaged.

Since then I have checked the circuits. (Single units were traveling through this place but MU units sometimes flicked the globe on) I should have checked more thoroughly. I now have a single DC200 running the whole layout, and have not seen any shorts not attribiuted to derailments
Cheers
Rod
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
What's a solid state cap? We have methods of using diodes as variable capacitances, but I doubt in this application. The melting behaviour describes to me something like a polyswitch, but I wouldn't be using them in this application - possibly for reasons as discovered by Rod.

I am just trying to work out how the protection worked (or otherwise as appears the case).

Incidentally, a 4 watt load on a nominal 12-14v source is more likely 350mA not 200mA.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Products in general have a time limited warranty, your lack of use on that time is not the fault of the manufacturer, nor is it their responsibility. If you wait til your product is out of warranty to use it then more fool you. What you are effectively demanding David is an indefinite warranty period, you will never get this, if you want a distance based warranty aka a vehicle style warranty then you best get cracking working on an accurate scale sized odometer for fitting to a model. You will also need to accept that even distance based warranties are lawfully attached to time based limits too. Just beware, that yourself and others included will not be willing to pay more for this feature, so you best get used to working for free.
Aaron

I never said a word about lifetime warranties you thought that up, I said it is a manufacturing problem out of the hands of modellers and just used the stored models to show that it is not abuse by modellers and running them that is causing the problem.

I have to agree with Linton yes you are rude and opinionated as well, you are right and everyone else is wrong or so it seems. If Linton can read my post and get what I was talking about then you with your Uni degree should have had no problem working it out! I gather everyone else read it like Linton did as only you complained about it!

The fault lies in the locomotive from the factory and is known to the distributor of them so why don't they do something for all those people with these models gratis instead of trying to make a quick cash grab. Like Linton and others have said faults like these in locomotives are not going to do the firms reputation the world of good.  So really it is up to the distributor to get a fix made that does actually fix the problem now and in the future.

Yes the intermediate gears could have been made a lot wider, why they chose to go that thin in the first place, when there is plenty of room inside for thicker gears leaves one speechless. Also the thicker a piece of plastic the more stable it is, if it is made from proper plastic in the first place that is and not the sweepings off the floor! Hornby had the same problem and probably from the same factory as well when diecast underframes just crumbled to dust before they were even sold new. The Chinese recycled the diecast too many times! Hornby's solution was to replace the underframes in these models no questions asked at all! You could either get one and do it yourself or get Hornby to do it for you the choice was yours!
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
My other expensive interest involves cars, Minis to be exact. While minis contain a few sintered type bearings, the two bearings that sit in the primary gear and run on the crank shaft really work quite hard. I was always told that these type of bearings should be soaked in applicable oil for a few days so as to fill the porous type structure. I wonder of this would be better than simply adding a drop of oil to a model bearing? If they are sintered it couldn't hurt I guess.

Rather than modifying the die for the sintered bearing I would prefer they modify the tooling and make decent gears.

I have heard a few horror stories of melting wheel centres and insulation parts on mainly brass steam locomotive driving wheels. It has been something that I have been cautious about while converting to DCC and so far, touch wood, have had no problems. The brass AD60 will be fun with all of its brake rigging.

I was looking one of my 80 class North Yard mechs this morning - http://northyard.co.nz/products-page/mech/ . They are a split frame type mech but made a lot better than the current plastic fantastic RTR mechs. They have the right idea regarding nice wide well supported gears. Interestingly they don't use a muff type gear but use a split axle with one side shouldered fitting into a hole on the opposite axle side. A picture would explain it better wouldn't it. My 80 class mech is quite old so am not sure how their current mechs are built.

Third party, cottage type mechanism manufactures may have a booming business once again, supplying mechs/bogies for clapped out RTR models. They say things come in circles. It used to be quite fun re powering models!

Linton

The bronze bearings are, as far as I can determine, sintered bronze. Sintered bronze is good material for bearings because it consists of granules of bronze that have been fused together under pressure and heat, and has a very good ability to hold oil on the minute spaces in the material. So adding a flange to one side would be a case of modifying the die that is used to make the bearings, and should be possible.'

Looking at the bearing in Rod's photo, the one on the side that melted looks to me to be darker in colour that the other side, indicating perhaps that the bearing ran very hot. The heat that melted the muff could have been caused by the bearing running dry, however it is more likely a result of arcing between the axle and the bearing due to the power collection process. Rod could confirm this by looking at the stub axle inside that bearing, it may shows sign of an arc pitted surface.

This is one of the drawbacks of split frame pickup designs, the power is collected by the wheels and passed to the metal frame cheeks through the sintered bearing. That bearing must have a liberal coating of oil on it to allow the axle to rotate freely, and that oil is the enemy of power pickup. There is an inevitable arcing occurring between the axle and bearing, and that can introduce enough heat to melt the muff, and is a self perpetuating process because as it causes pitting on the surface of the axle, it encourages even more arcing to occur.

White Delrin is just as good as black Delrin.

TOR were well aware of the issue of the intermediate gears not meshing properly, as the owner contacted me shortly after I published that photograph several years ago and we discussed the problem and how to fix it.
"TheBlacksmith"
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
I would rather not be involved with petty arguments over model trains. This is just my hobby and hardly the most important thing in life. Railpage is graced by many people that can offer excellent advice/information. It is an excellent modelling source.

I am generally very relaxed but do not appreciate people that constantly talk down to others. I understand it's very hard to interpret the tone of some on line discussions, however if someone is anti social perhaps social media is not for them.

Linton

I never said a word about lifetime warranties you thought that up, I said it is a manufacturing problem out of the hands of modellers and just used the stored models to show that it is not abuse by modellers and running them that is causing the problem.

I have to agree with Linton yes you are rude and opinionated as well, you are right and everyone else is wrong or so it seems. If Linton can read my post and get what I was talking about then you with your Uni degree should have had no problem working it out! I gather everyone else read it like Linton did as only you complained about it!

The fault lies in the locomotive from the factory and is known to the distributor of them so why don't they do something for all those people with these models gratis instead of trying to make a quick cash grab. Like Linton and others have said faults like these in locomotives are not going to do the firms reputation the world of good.  So really it is up to the distributor to get a fix made that does actually fix the problem now and in the future.

Yes the intermediate gears could have been made a lot wider, why they chose to go that thin in the first place, when there is plenty of room inside for thicker gears leaves one speechless. Also the thicker a piece of plastic the more stable it is, if it is made from proper plastic in the first place that is and not the sweepings off the floor! Hornby had the same problem and probably from the same factory as well when diecast underframes just crumbled to dust before they were even sold new. The Chinese recycled the diecast too many times! Hornby's solution was to replace the underframes in these models no questions asked at all! You could either get one and do it yourself or get Hornby to do it for you the choice was yours!
"David Peters"
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I never said a word about lifetime warranties you thought that up, I said it is a manufacturing problem out of the hands of modellers and just used the stored models to show that it is not abuse by modellers and running them that is causing the problem.
David Peters

I didn't think that up you did!

If you buy a model and put it into storage for an indefinite period of time and demand that it still functions for one or two years after that storage period then you are effectively demanding a lifetime warranty.

What other time length period would you be thinking?

Suppose you take 2 years to build your layout? Suppose you take 3 years to build your layout? 5 years? 10 years? Your layout never happens? Exactly how long do you want this time period to be? - See that is getting to be lifetime... And that is what you want, and/or demand occurs, not my 'thought up' at all, just a real life expression of what you said.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
What's a solid state cap? We have methods of using diodes as variable capacitances, but I doubt in this application. The melting behaviour describes to me something like a polyswitch, but I wouldn't be using them in this application - possibly for reasons as discovered by Rod.

I am just trying to work out how the protection worked (or otherwise as appears the case).

Incidentally, a 4 watt load on a nominal 12-14v source is more likely 350mA not 200mA.
Aaron

Hello Aaron
I leave the technical bits to you guys . I am barely capable of following a hook up diagram.

I believe it is a poly switch. I had them sent from the US to make sure I had the correct parts

Stop/Tail protection

Cheers
Rod
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
TOR were well aware of the issue of the intermediate gears not meshing properly, as the owner contacted me shortly after I published that photograph several years ago and we discussed the problem and how to fix it.
TheBlacksmith



Wait a minute, was the resultant response from ToR to fixing the problem as per your discussion / suggestions?

You know, provide exactly the same width muff gear on an axle to model purchasers (at a cost)

Or was there a different solution tendered and not taken up by ToR?

Regards,

Catchpoint
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Just going back to Rod's story, with further explanation by Rod, the damage would more likely have been cause by a slightly dirty connection on one wheel trapped between rail on a set of points. The resultant current flowing through the dirty connection would have been enough to heat up the wheel and cause the meltdown.

To answer your question Catchpoint, the owner of TOR did not commit to solving the problem one way or the other. I made him aware of the problem of the poorly meshing gears and he said he would look into it. AFAIK, the meshing problem was not addressed at all, and would therefore still be an issue today. As for providing the replacement muff, I am not sure what issue that was intended to address, as I had not seen any examples of split muff gears.

In defence of TOR, the problem of the poorly meshing gears is not one that I would lay at their door. It was clearly a result of poor design by the Chinese manufacturer, and unless they had good reason to suspect a problem, I would not expect TOR to have dismantled a bogie to look at it, as you would reasonably expect the factory to have got it right. So the most likely passed the sample as being OK for volume production without knowing the problem existed.

Once the problem surfaced, they had a quandary, either ignore it and hope it only occurred in a small number of models, or try and get the factory to admit to a bad design flaw and take the models back. Doing something about it would have created a logistical nightmare, as it is not a simple problem to fix, it virtually requires you to replace the entire bogie with another. I am fairly sure the factory would have tried to reject blame for the problem, leaving TOR to pick up the tab for the fix.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Thanks for the back story Blacksmith

Regards,

Catchpoint
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Ah, a PTC Rod, sort of like a self repairing fuse. I wouldn't use them, they're not that predictable or fast in operation.

It's interesting that the website makes mention of the short circuit current being 2.5A for up to (according to them) 45 seconds. Once the PTC goes open the short circuit it current is reduced to 400mA indefinitely, in the scheme of things that's not a huge current, but it's a lot more than 0.

14 ish volts into a 2.5A load liberates about 35 Watts into something small like a loco wheel for 45 seconds that really could start getting hot, as indeed it seems to have. Beyond the 45 seconds when the PTC has opened you're looking around 5.5 Watts using their 400mA limiting figure.

This is the instance where it will always be my opinion that globes and other work arounds to DCC system shutdowns are bad news. The only safe method to dealing with a short in a 60-75 Watt capable DCC system is to switch the current entirely off. That is, either let the system shut down, or use real electronic circuit breakers that operate near instantly to disconnect the source voltage.

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