Trainorama S Class clicking bogie

 
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Hi,

I had some time to work on cutting replacement Traino 44 class gears today.

Blog shows details - http://stonequarrycreek.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/44-class-gears-part-2.html

I have had this week off, so have had way to much time on my hands. It has been fun and I have learnt a few new things.

Regards,

Linton

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  John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Thanks for that info Linton.  Looks good.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Good work Linton, but can you do the thousands of wheelsets that now will be required Laughing

Geoff
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Good work Linton, but can you do the thousands of wheelsets that now will be required Laughing

Geoff
"TheBlacksmith"


G'day Geoff,

Ha ha no. If I didn't have a day job a larger quantity may be achievable. I will not be making thousands, that's for sure. Perhaps if the blanks could be produced more efficiently, in larger quantities, then the produced numbers could be high. Somebody with the ability to cut the blanks on a CNC type set up may be able to achieve it. Like you said previously, would it be worth it? Not sure.

Linton
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

I'd rather not go through 4 pages at the moment & I know the OP started this thread in September, but to the original poster & others, IF the product is under manufacturers warranty, and if you say it is a fault, then take it back or send it back to the shop.

If this is correct, then Toms, or is that Bob's (I forget) need to look at why this is happening. If it is under warranty, & it's a manufacturing fault, then they are obliged to repair, replace or refund.

David Peters, if this is a fault, and it sounds like it is, then I don't believe it's too much for them to be recalled.

Edit: The shop claims they don't know about this on the S Class, so may I suggest letting the shop know, if they don't know.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I'd rather not go through 4 pages at the moment & I know the OP started this thread in September, but to the original poster & others, IF the product is under manufacturers warranty, and if you say it is a fault, then take it back or send it back to the shop.

If this is correct, then Toms, or is that Bob's (I forget) need to look at why this is happening. If it is under warranty, & it's a manufacturing fault, then they are obliged to repair, replace or refund.

David Peters, if this is a fault, and it sounds like it is, then I don't believe it's too much for them to be recalled.

Edit: The shop claims they don't know about this on the S Class, so may I suggest letting the shop know, if they don't know.
Newcastle Express

They are NOT IN WARRANTY! Many of these models date back to 05, claiming a warranty 9 years on is such a stretch that not even David's 'lawyer' would try it.
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
They are NOT IN WARRANTY! Many of these models date back to 05, claiming a warranty 9 years on is such a stretch that not even David's 'lawyer' would try it.
"Aaron"


Agree with this. All four of my 44s have split gears. Unfortunately for me three of them have never turned a wheel. Mine are older models and warranty is pushing it. A more thorough fix may be a more appropriate complaint, although we have not heard of any of the OEM replacement gears splitting yet. Maybe it has been resolved?

There are some major design flaws with the 44 class bogie (sorry I know this a 42 class discussion). These have been mentioned here before however the bronze axle bearings falling outside their seating location is pretty bad. Another thing to fix.

I think it was Blacksmith that said the complete bogie really needs to be replaced and I agree. The driveline resembles something that you would find in a show bag.

Linton
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
G'day Geoff,

Ha ha no. If I didn't have a day job a larger quantity may be achievable. I will not be making thousands, that's for sure. Perhaps if the blanks could be produced more efficiently, in larger quantities, then the produced numbers could be high. Somebody with the ability to cut the blanks on a CNC type set up may be able to achieve it. Like you said previously, would it be worth it? Not sure.

Linton
linton78

Hi Linton,
The video shows up the bad design. I am not sure Trainorama and Austrains are going to be up to the task of fixing the problem and financing it themselves.

However I am pretty certain that we can put pressure on them to at least make a working replacement that will keep their product in use. at least you would expect them to do so. The replacement wheel set is hardly modified enough and the gears still are misaligned.

Surely someone can put a presentation up to Austrains and or Trainorama with a request to produce a working fix for the problem both companies have with their sub standard SandaKan bogie designs?
That video, shows just how inadequate the present design is, and makes one wonder if all Chinese Engineers and designers are so bad at what they do? I think I might give their high speed trains a miss and fly in Airbus's instead Smile

I wonder how difficult it would be to replace Auscision bogies into S and 42 class engines? and if it would be possible, maybe Auscision can help us out by supplying extra 421 class bogies as spares? Now that the product is going into production?
Will 43 Class and 45 class bogies be the same? Are they the same as 44 Class?
Cheers
Rod
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
They are NOT IN WARRANTY! Many of these models date back to 05, claiming a warranty 9 years on is such a stretch that not even David's 'lawyer' would try it.
Aaron

Warranty has got nothing to do with things like this rather was it sold and fit for purpose in the first place and the answer to that is no going on the complaints. A recall can be done at any time not just in a warranty period if the problem shows up later then a recall is needed to fix the problem. You often see recalls of things that are probably not covered by warranties but are bad workmanship, design and manufacture and they are in most cases recalled and fixed if possible at no expense to the owners as the company admits liability in these cases. If you don't return whatever for rectification or repair, in the future that is your problem of not taking up the offer.

Personally If I owned a company and this started to rear it's head I would voluntarily help anyone who bought a model to enjoy it further down the line or else risk the chance that the ACCC get on to it and charge you with selling un-merchantable quality stuff that are not fit for purpose and they would have a good case against you in these circumstances.

Now before Mr Legal Expert gets off his high horse here. Let me explain further, you bought the model in good faith as a scale model to run on your layout, but you find out that is not the case though, the model has some serious manufacturing flaws with it and it sounds like a lot of others do as well. So really it is an open and shut case of selling models that are not of merchantable quality. If they were of merchantable quality they would work with no problems at all, but they do not work properly they have a few problems with them. Sure you can return the model to the shop or the distributor but who is to say that the replacement is better it might be worse than the one you bought to start with.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
David, they are model trains, toys (much as I hate to say it).  They will not be recalled for safety etc.  Defects in car, planes can kill.

We need to put things into perpective.

Regards,
David Head
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
You beat me to it David Head, no-one has any claim 9 years after the fact.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The video shows up the bad design. I am not sure Trainorama and Austrains are going to be up to the task of fixing the problem and financing it themselves.
comtrain

Rod, if you look at the photo of the gears on Linton's blog, the top axle is an Austrains one, the centre one if TOR. How does Austrains get involved here? Their axle gear looks fine to me, and I remember stating that when this whole thing blew up years ago.
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Rod, if you look at the photo of the gears on Linton's blog, the top axle is an Austrains one, the centre one if TOR. How does Austrains get involved here? Their axle gear looks fine to me, and I remember stating that when this whole thing blew up years ago.
"TheBlacksmith"


I have had no problems with the Austrains gears. I can't really talk though as I only have one of their locomotives. Nah make that two, I foolishly bought an 81 class.

I only took a photo of the austrains gear (C class) as they can actually be used in the 44, not in all positions however due to the centrally located gear. There are some meshing problems. I probably should not have included it in the photo.

I think Rod may of been referring to the crappy bogie design. If that's the case he is completely agreeing with your original assessment ha ha.

Linton
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

They are NOT IN WARRANTY! Many of these models date back to 05
Aaron

Sorry, I thought the OP was refering to recently released diesels.

Edit: David Peters is partly correct, as yes fit for their intended purpose, but 9 years would be too long, unless the warranty goes for that long.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
David (Peters) it is important to remember that although you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts...

The fact is these products were fit for purpose. They are model trains, they ran on model layouts, they sat on plinths in display cases, fulfilling their intended purpose, not just in their hundreds, but in their thousands. They have done this cheerfully and successfully for (conservatively) 6 years. The warranty period was 12 months or 2 years (the period is so expired I no longer care to bother remembering), if the warranty period was 2 years they have managed to exceed it by three times that period! The models did not fail en masse during this period, indeed I did not see a report of even an individual model failing in this mode until within the last year. (That is not an invitation to make up some story about 'a friend' of yours having one of models that failed 12 years ago, because simply, myself and the rest of the forum ain't buying it).

The design of the gear towers may not be World's best practice, but the design of them is hardly faulty either, the fact that they lasted for so long is proof of that. Sure you can spend infinite money and infinite time to make a product that will last a long time, but then the plastic recipe might be slightly off or the climactic conditions might not quite right on production day and the product could still fail early. There is however a point in all engineering when you have to stop spending money on design and start making money by doing the production and sales.

You can hold the opinion that they were not fit for purpose, but you cannot dispute the fact that they are/were fit for purpose! AND exceeded the manufacturers period of warranty by 300% which is good going.

We have been over this before, and the product is not warranted in usage terms, the product is warranted in terms of time frame. Your opinion that you had insufficient use, is of no consequence to the manufacturer or warranty period. The fact is the warranty was for a time period now well expired, and that is the only fact we need to consider. You can buy a car with a 3 year, 100,000km warranty*, but that little star always leads to a clause which states 'whichever comes first'. If you buy the car, drive it off the lot, collect a pedestrian and go to gaol for four years for killing them and car remains unused, when you exit gaol the warranty is expired, and the odometer will still read 14km...
  a6et Minister for Railways

David (Peters) it is important to remember that although you are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts...

The fact is these products were fit for purpose. They are model trains, they ran on model layouts, they sat on plinths in display cases, fulfilling their intended purpose, not just in their hundreds, but in their thousands. They have done this cheerfully and successfully for (conservatively) 6 years. The warranty period was 12 months or 2 years (the period is so expired I no longer care to bother remembering), if the warranty period was 2 years they have managed to exceed it by three times that period! The models did not fail en masse during this period, indeed I did not see a report of even an individual model failing in this mode until within the last year. (That is not an invitation to make up some story about 'a friend' of yours having one of models that failed 12 years ago, because simply, myself and the rest of the forum ain't buying it).

The design of the gear towers may not be World's best practice, but the design of them is hardly faulty either, the fact that they lasted for so long is proof of that. Sure you can spend infinite money and infinite time to make a product that will last a long time, but then the plastic recipe might be slightly off or the climactic conditions might not quite right on production day and the product could still fail early. There is however a point in all engineering when you have to stop spending money on design and start making money by doing the production and sales.

You can hold the opinion that they were not fit for purpose, but you cannot dispute the fact that they are/were fit for purpose! AND exceeded the manufacturers period of warranty by 300% which is good going.

We have been over this before, and the product is not warranted in usage terms, the product is warranted in terms of time frame. Your opinion that you had insufficient use, is of no consequence to the manufacturer or warranty period. The fact is the warranty was for a time period now well expired, and that is the only fact we need to consider. You can buy a car with a 3 year, 100,000km warranty*, but that little star always leads to a clause which states 'whichever comes first'. If you buy the car, drive it off the lot, collect a pedestrian and go to gaol for four years for killing them and car remains unused, when you exit gaol the warranty is expired, and the odometer will still read 14km...
Aaron

Aaron

I totally agree with you & have said the same thing previously as well.

Try taking this to Consumer affairs or a state fair trading commission, & they will throw it out, just as they did with my claime regarding a $3.600 camera that constantly failed & was repaired under the 5 year extended warranty several times but the Company refused to do anymore when it failed again while still under warranty.

I took it to fair trading & won but Panasonic dragged it out & the beak put the point to me, what did I expect from the product as to fair wear & use?  He was of the opinion that I had over 4 years work & taken somewhere around 40 Mini DV tapes of recordings with it, he dismissed the fact that the last failure of the camera which was always the same thing as irrelevant.

The only thing that was awarded out of that final decision was that he ordered Panasonic to offer some form of compromise, & they did, a new camera could be purchased at staff discount rates, but only from 3 models, each at bottom range not of the same Pro type I had. Trouble was I could purchase the offered cameras at cheaper prices in local camera shops.

$3600.00 for the camera & I ended up with nothing out of it, compare that to a $300.00 model railway item. Also where the consumer is regarding fair trading & consumer laws.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Panasonic are/were usually pretty good, some of their agents of service maybe not so... Who was underwriting the extended warranty? A five year extension is longer than I recall Panasonic generally offering themselves. Extended warranties are a bit of a minefield, when I was still in the industry I used to have to waste more time than I wanted to writing claims (and sometimes 'adjusting' the 'faultiness' of the product) to suit the contract terms...
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Panasonic are/were usually pretty good, some of their agents of service maybe not so... Who was underwriting the extended warranty? A five year extension is longer than I recall Panasonic generally offering themselves. Extended warranties are a bit of a minefield, when I was still in the industry I used to have to waste more time than I wanted to writing claims (and sometimes 'adjusting' the 'faultiness' of the product) to suit the contract terms...
  a6et Minister for Railways

Panasonic are/were usually pretty good, some of their agents of service maybe not so... Who was underwriting the extended warranty? A five year extension is longer than I recall Panasonic generally offering themselves. Extended warranties are a bit of a minefield, when I was still in the industry I used to have to waste more time than I wanted to writing claims (and sometimes 'adjusting' the 'faultiness' of the product) to suit the contract terms...
Aaron

It was not an issue until I had the 5th repeated problem with the camera, it chewed up tapes, also would jump in the videoing along with heavy pixelisation of the images & very random, that happened during recording, plus on viewing the video on a couple of important tapes, it actually wiped out sound that had been ok at first.

The repair places were the agents for Panasonic & I was directed to them by their service dept. Two different agents were used in the process, the first time the problem happened they had to replace the whole electrical board in the camera & had to get a new one from Japan, I lost use of it for 3 months as they waited for the parts, over the years it was in repairs for a total of 10 months, so I never even got full use of the camera.

Later they tried to blame the fact that I had used a couple of other branded tapes, but I had more problems with Panasonic tapes than others, their agent at the tribunal who was their head of customer relations asked for one of the tapes so that their tech department could examine it, despite promises to return, it never came back, so I lost 2 days of holiday tape of steam in China that can never be done again.

The amount of time & money it cost me as well as Panasonic would be more than an equivalent replacement camera would have cost, but the aspect is that they would have had to admit the camera was a lemon, & worth contesting the claim to protect their image. Since then I have never purchased another Panasonic product whereas I would have except for this.

The camera came with a standard 3 year warranty, but Panasonic offered an extra Company 2 year extension, which I opted & paid for.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Rod, if you look at the photo of the gears on Linton's blog, the top axle is an Austrains one, the centre one if TOR. How does Austrains get involved here? Their axle gear looks fine to me, and I remember stating that when this whole thing blew up years ago.
TheBlacksmith

Hello mate,
I may have confused myself here Sad However when I bought ny Trainorama S Class several years ago, I so liked the better bogies that I removed a pair from the new S Class and fitted them under an Austrains X Class. They were a perfect replacement. When I mentioned to JE that I had done this, he told me that both engines were built by SandaKan, and it was a fact that SandaKan had used the Same mech for thir S Class bogie, only updating the side frames for Traino.

I then ordered 6 sets of replacement Traino S Class bogies and retro-fitted all my Austrains X Class . As far as I remember I only changed out the first set of bogies. When the spares arrived, one set went onto the new S Class and the other side frames were clicked off the Traino bogies and put straight on to the Austrains gear boxes. I am not sure which bogies are Austrains anymore.

So I am probably looking at Traino bogies thinking they were Austrains ones? But from JE's comments I thought the gear train were identical anyway? Must re examine them when I return home Smile
Cheers
Rod
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Yeah, you will notice the top Austrains gear is a bit wider than the TOR one in the middle. When I first examined the TOR bogie that Roachie sent me, I also took apart an Austrains one to see what it looked like and there was no problem with it, it had a wider gear.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

So would I be correct, the main problem is that the gears are too thin?

And no, I don't know what a "muff" is.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Yeah, you will notice the top Austrains gear is a bit wider than the TOR one in the middle. When I first examined the TOR bogie that Roachie sent me, I also took apart an Austrains one to see what it looked like and there was no problem with it, it had a wider gear.
TheBlacksmith

So Geoff,
Is it possible that the cheapest and easiest  fix is to replace the top (flat) gear?  Particularly as I have yet to find a split muff in my 'clicking' engines?
Cheers
Rod
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
So would I be correct, the main problem is that the gears are too thin?

And no, I don't know what a "muff" is.
Newcastle Express

"Muff" is the term that means the black plastic portion that holds the 2 steel stub axles/wheels. The "muff" could also be called the "gear section" I suppose.

The term muff harks back to the old days when ladies would have a warm piece of "clothing" (?) that they carried in front of them to place their hands inside of......a bit like some wind cheaters where you place your hands into pockets in front of your guts.

The way the axles fit into the ends of the "gear section" is where they sort of look like hands going into a muff to keep warm.....hahaha.

Roachie
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
So Geoff,
Is it possible that the cheapest and easiest fix is to replace the top (flat) gear? Particularly as I have yet to find a split muff in my 'clicking' engines?
Cheers
Rod
comtrain

Rod, if your locos don't have split gears but ARE clicking, then it is likely that the muff is able to move side to side enough to mean that the skinny gear loses good "mesh" with the idler gear.

If you have access to some of the wider Austrains wheels/muffs, you may be able to substitute them....I will take everybody's word for it that they are the same diameter and teeth spacing/numbers etc such they fit straight in.

On the other hand, given that your muffs aren't split, you could also get away with using the "fix" I devised and wrote-up about in the thread about the 44 class clicking wheels......IE: cut small pieces of 1mm plastic shim and glue these to the inner face of the bogie side frames (3 per side per bogie). You could use the plastic bread bag tags as a source of the plastic; just experiment first as to the thickness.....What you're trying to achieve is an arrangement that stops the overly generous side to side "play" that the wheel sets have in them. If you can keep the axle centered within the chassis the gear on the muff WILL stay meshed with the idler gear and eliminate the clicking.

I think these bogies must have been designed to go around 12" radius curves, based on the amount of play the wheel sets have available to them!!! Wink

Roachie

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